The alarming anti-Americanism in Europe

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The alarming anti-Americanism in Europe

Post by Perinquus »

Here's an interesting bit of information from a recent poll:

A nine-nation survey commissioned last month by the prestigious Pew Global Attitudes Project (see their website here: http://people-press.org/) found a disturbing animosity toward the United State in every major European country except Great Britain. For example, people in Germany held an "unfavorable" opinion of the United States by a margin of 71-25 percent. In France, unfavorables beat favorables by a margin of 67-31 percent. In Italy it was 59-34 percent, in Spain 74-14 percent.

In France, 75 percent of respondents said they opposed "the U.S. and other allies taking military action in Iraq to end Saddam Hussein's rule." Only 20 percent said they were in favor. However, when these same individuals were asked whether or not they thought that "the Middle East region will be more or less stable after Saddam Hussein is removed from power" a 46-37 percent majority agreed that the region would be more stable. When asked whether or not they thought "the people of Iraq will be better off or worse off" after the Allied campaign, an overwhelming majority of 73-14 percent agreed that Iraqis would be better off.

The results are reflected across the continent. In Germany, opponents of the war outpolled supporters by 69-27 percent but a large majority of Germans (56-32 percent) said that the Mideast region would be more stable absent Hussein and an even larger majority of Germans said that the Iraqi people would be better off (71-15 percent). In Italy, only 17 percent of respondents favored their own government's policy of supporting America in the war, but once again large numbers said the region would be more stable (46-27 percent) and the Iraqi people better off (61-18 percent).

This data suggests that there has been very little disagreement between the American government and the European people when it came to Hussein's cruelty toward his own subjects and the menace he posed to his neighbors. And yet instead of applauding the Bush administration's uncompromising stance toward evil, the European "street" is almost as anti-American as the Arab "street." The typical poll respondent is essentially saying "Yes, we think the war will ultimately be in the best interests of the Iraqi people, and yes, the Arab world will be more stable and peacefull if Saddam is no longer there, but for God's sake, don't do it!"

What is even more mystifying is that this admittedly desirable final result has been achieved largely with American money and American blood - the Europeans (apart from the British) are basically risking nothing. You would think then, that European attitudes toward this whole thing would be more or less positive. I mean, I could understand Europeans being a bit apprehensive, as anyone has a right to be about a war. But this is really strange. "We agree your actions are ultimately for the greater good, but we hate you for it". :?

I think this is a result of two things, basically. One is a modern, new age squeamishness. France, for example, long refused to extradite Ira Einhorn because he potentiallyfaced the death penalty upon his return the the U.S.. Ira Einhorn, for those of you unfamiliar with the name, was a 1960s left wing radical, who around Sept. 9, 1977, killed his girlfriend, Holly Maddux and stuffed her in a steamer trunk which he put in his closet. Her body spent the next year and a half decomposing there, while Einhorn refused to let his apartment building's janitor examine the source of the smell, or the rancid brown liquid seeping through his floorboards.

When the body was discovered he fled to France, and as I said, the French sheltered him because he might be executed in America (and this is a problem, why?). I think that in modern Europe, many people have exalted squeamishness and now regard it as a moral virtue. Violence is BAD! Killing is BAD! Under any circumstances. Ever. Period. The fact that violence and war may occasionally be the lesser of two evils is dismissed as a silly idea.

The other reason I think Europeans have opposed the war on Iraq is an emotionally based, reflexive anti-Americanism. Perhaps it is envy that America had supplanted Europe as the worlds largest economy and military power. It has become widespread enough that some Europeans literally are willing to impute worse motives and less integrity and honesty to George W. Bush and the American government than they are to the government of a repressive, one-party police state, led by an incontrovertibly blood-soaked tyant like Saddam Hussein. Consider the following excerpt from this article (http://www.worldrevolution.org/article/555) by Glenn Frankel of the Washington Post Foreign Service, dated Tuesday, February 11, 2003:
Smith, the director of the American Academy, recalled the prosperous and sophisticated German couple who sat next to him on a recent train ride to Berlin. Creators of a successful pharmaceutical research company, they were the kind of people he assumed would be most comfortable with American ideas and values. Instead, he said, they railed against American arrogance and imperial ambitions and refused to concede there might be two sides to the argument.

"I was making the case that if we go into Iraq and discover weapons of mass destruction, then the world would come to realize we'd been right," Smith recalled. "And they told me, 'If that happens, it's only because the CIA planted them.' I was floored."
Is this not incredible? I do understand criticism of American foreign policy, but this crosses into paranoia, and it's becoming increasingly common in Europe.

I am not saying there is nothing wrong with American foreign policy, not am I saying that we never do things that certainly deserve criticism. But a lot of the criticism coming our way these days is emotional, not rational.
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Post by Dahak »

About the extradition of people facing death penalties in other countries: It is generally against the European policy, because death penalty is outlawed in the European Union.
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Post by Colonel Olrik »

Long post, I don't agree with a lot in it but don't have time to reply now.

But this is easy to explain
When the body was discovered he fled to France, and as I said, the French sheltered him because he might be executed in America (and this is a problem, why?).
It's in the Constitution. Of both the Portuguese, French and other E.U members,. We cannot extradite criminals to countries where they may face death for their penalties. It's not as we like to have them.

In Portugal, it's even worse. Our Constitution forbids sending criminals to countries where the jail time may be above 25 years, the maximum jail time in Portugal. That has caused us conflicts with many other E.U countries, including Spain and France. :?

And the damned criminals have noticed this, and now try to run to Portugal before being caught.
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Post by Perinquus »

Dahak wrote:About the extradition of people facing death penalties in other countries: It is generally against the European policy, because death penalty is outlawed in the European Union.
Thank you. That's part of this squeamishness to which I was referring. Some crimes richly deserve capital punishment, and Einhorn's was one of them.

I'd rather this thread not get off onto that tangent. I cite it merely as an example that a brutal and unquestionably guilty murderer was allowed to roam at large in France because of disapproval of the existence of captical punishment in the United States. This was not an example of someone seeking political asylum because he was being unjustly persecuted by his government. This was a man who was certainly guilty of a particularly brutal murder. He should have been sent back to pay the penalty for his crimes. He only was when he was granted a new trial.

But for more than twenty years Einhorn lived free and easy in France, escaping punishment altogether, because of French squeamishness over the death penalty.
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Post by Colonel Olrik »

If you want to hijack your own thread, go ahead, but this has nothing to do with the death penalty. Capital punishement has been considered illegal in the E.U, regardless what you may think of it. I happen to think it was a good decision.

We also don't send criminals to islamic "limb cutting" countries.

It's not about antiamericanism, it's about following our own laws.
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Post by Spyder »

Believing that the CIA would plant WMD just so the US wouldn't lose face if none were found isn't a radical belief. If they didn't find anything then what else would they do? Turn around and say "opps, sorry. We were wrong...Well we'll just be going then, gg everybody!"

Also, how is it a shock when the US starts acting out on its own paying absolutely no respect to the wishes of the majority of the international community and then finds that no one likes it?
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Post by Ted »

Colonel Olrik wrote:If you want to hijack your own thread, go ahead, but this has nothing to do with the death penalty. Capital punishement has been considered illegal in the E.U, regardless what you may think of it. I happen to think it was a good decision.
Capital punishment is also against the UN Charter of Human Rights.
One of the reasons why America is a big violator of human rights.
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Post by Nathan F »

OK, lemme get this straight. A Portuguese man murders three people in the United States, and flees to Portugal again before he is caught. But Portugal won't extradite him because he will be sentenced to life in prison at the least?

That is bull...

And the no more than 25 years in prison bit is pretty stupid, as well...
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Post by Nathan F »

Spyder wrote:Believing that the CIA would plant WMD just so the US wouldn't lose face if none were found isn't a radical belief. If they didn't find anything then what else would they do? Turn around and say "opps, sorry. We were wrong...Well we'll just be going then, gg everybody!"
Are you insane?! You think that the CIA is going to set off a WMD in the US just to save face. That is wacked, man. Plus, banned weapons have already been found, and we have liberated the Iraqi people, the other goal of this war.
Also, how is it a shock when the US starts acting out on its own paying absolutely no respect to the wishes of the majority of the international community and then finds that no one likes it?
It isn't a shock. But, then again, is it a shock that the people who were staunchly against it are now wanting in on the so-called spoils of war now that it is over?
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Post by Colonel Olrik »

Nathan F wrote:OK, lemme get this straight. A Portuguese man murders three people in the United States, and flees to Portugal again before he is caught. But Portugal won't extradite him because he will be sentenced to life in prison at the least?

That is bull....
We would be judged here.
And the no more than 25 years in prison bit is pretty stupid, as well...
:shrugs:

I'm against the death penalty, but I agree that in certain cases a life time sentence is needed, possibly with the possibility of leaving sooner depending on his behaviour.
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Post by Perinquus »

Spyder wrote:Believing that the CIA would plant WMD just so the US wouldn't lose face if none were found isn't a radical belief. If they didn't find anything then what else would they do? Turn around and say "opps, sorry. We were wrong...Well we'll just be going then, gg everybody!"

Also, how is it a shock when the US starts acting out on its own paying absolutely no respect to the wishes of the majority of the international community and then finds that no one likes it?
I think it's pretty radical. It's conspiracy theory stuff. It would be too difficult to fabricate that kind of evidence, then somehow get all the people involved in setting up such a hoax to keep silent or go along with the ruse. You'd need to doctor records, transport real WMD materials to the appropriate sites, or fabricate it on site, bribe or intimidate Iraqis to provide false testimony that they or other Iraqis were involved, etc. And it needs to be fairly large scale in order to provide credible evidence of a WMD threat remember. Planting such evidence is simply not a realistic or practical solution.


If they U.S. failed to find any evidence at all that Saddam had WMDs they would start spin doctoring, that's all. Downplay the WMD angle, and start playing up links to Al Quaeda, and the humanitarian concern to free the Iraqi people from a murderous dictator, and so forth. It's not as though there is any lack of other things they could use to justify this fait accompli.
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Post by TheDarkling »

Well at least the folks on the continent can see reason enough to admit that the Arab world will be better off with Saddam.

I think one of the main problems with the war is that US jumped around of reasons for the war (Osama Links, then any terrorist links, WMD, breech of the UN etc etc) and more or less every reason came or lacking eventually Bush began to follow Blair’s lead and spout off about freeing the Iraqi people however by this point it was rather obvious that this wasn't the real reason the US wanted war so it was less than well received (although it is the most valid reason and is why I was pro war from the start).

I also wonder how the US public would respond if the US said it was going to launch invasions of most of the middle east and a good sized position of Africa even though they know (assuming they understand the world situation beyond their borders, :D cheap shot I know) that it would be better for the people in them I doubt it would be well received.

Then we get onto the outstanding job Bush and Co did of convincing the world they were jacked up arrogant morons with a huge stick and a tiny brain, this didn't inspire confidence in people and then when they started threatening smaller countries and acting like a bully this instilled further dislike.

Is it really any surprise that when you annoy people enough they are going to get bent out of shape and be more resistant to your proposals?

Now on the side note of capital punishment, what if the French decided that fraud should result in the criminal’s entire family being executed - would the US extradite them all to be killed? (I really shouldn't have said that, it isn't wise to ask a question to which you don't know the response :? ).

You say it shows the EU are afraid of violence because we happen to set our laws in a certain way, what if I were to say the US using those laws makes them barbaric and that they are in wrong?
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Post by Perinquus »

TheDarkling wrote:Then we get onto the outstanding job Bush and Co did of convincing the world they were jacked up arrogant morons with a huge stick and a tiny brain, this didn't inspire confidence in people and then when they started threatening smaller countries and acting like a bully this instilled further dislike.
Threatened whom? Now Chirac telling smaller, eastern-European countries that they were talking out of turn, and hinting that they could be shut out of the EU if they didn't knock it off... that looks to me like acting like a bully.

As for Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, et al seing supposed morons. Well, they claimed the Iraqis would welcome us as liberators, and were scoffed at. They claimed we'd find evidence of WMDs and were jeered at. They said the campaign was going well, and were snidely dismissed as buffoons covering up the beginnings of a Vietnam-like quagmire. Yet the swift victory and jubilant crowds in Baghdad show that President Bush and his team were spectacularly right and his critics spectacularly wrong. This ought to tell you that the supposed dullard is smarter than his critics.
TheDarkling wrote:Now on the side note of capital punishment, what if the French decided that fraud should result in the criminal’s entire family being executed - would the US extradite them all to be killed? (I really shouldn't have said that, it isn't wise to ask a question to which you don't know the response :? ).
This is a debating tactic called reductio ad absurdum. Literally, reducing to the absurd. It's a species of strawman. You reduce the argument to an absurd case of the kind which would never happen, and then use that to make your point.
TheDarkling wrote:You say it shows the EU are afraid of violence because we happen to set our laws in a certain way, what if I were to say the US using those laws makes them barbaric and that they are in wrong?
Then I would ask you why you think it is barbaric to take a man who has proved beyong any shadow of doubt that he does not respect in the slightest the right to life of other people, and make him forfeit his own. I'm looking for a rational justification mind you, not some appeal to emotion like "an eye for an eye leaves us all blind", like I usually get in response to such a question.
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Post by Spyder »

Nathan F wrote:
Spyder wrote:Believing that the CIA would plant WMD just so the US wouldn't lose face if none were found isn't a radical belief. If they didn't find anything then what else would they do? Turn around and say "opps, sorry. We were wrong...Well we'll just be going then, gg everybody!"
Are you insane?! You think that the CIA is going to set off a WMD in the US just to save face. That is wacked, man. Plus, banned weapons have already been found, and we have liberated the Iraqi people, the other goal of this war.
Who said anything about letting them off? A few barrels of chemicals here and there left for someone to find would do the trick. Hell, the only reason I'm pointing this out is because I'd do the same thing if I was in the US's shoes. Yes, they have found banned weapons but nowhere near as many as was claimed. Some shells loaded with chemicals, a few barrels of something nasty found buried right out in the middle of the desert and a few soldiers started getting bad reactions to the presense of sarin....while strolling through the terroritories where Saddam had the Kurds gassed.
It isn't a shock. But, then again, is it a shock that the people who were staunchly against it are now wanting in on the so-called spoils of war now that it is over?
Ah, but there are no spoils. After all, we're not conquering anybody are we?
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Post by Spyder »

Perinquus wrote:
I think it's pretty radical. It's conspiracy theory stuff. It would be too difficult to fabricate that kind of evidence, then somehow get all the people involved in setting up such a hoax to keep silent or go along with the ruse. You'd need to doctor records, transport real WMD materials to the appropriate sites, or fabricate it on site, bribe or intimidate Iraqis to provide false testimony that they or other Iraqis were involved, etc. And it needs to be fairly large scale in order to provide credible evidence of a WMD threat remember. Planting such evidence is simply not a realistic or practical solution.

If they U.S. failed to find any evidence at all that Saddam had WMDs they would start spin doctoring, that's all. Downplay the WMD angle, and start playing up links to Al Quaeda, and the humanitarian concern to free the Iraqi people from a murderous dictator, and so forth. It's not as though there is any lack of other things they could use to justify this fait accompli.
Given that the media cries Sarin every time a soldier gets the sniffles, even moving in one barrel would give them ample ammunition to spin it into a massive WMD stockpile.
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Post by Darth Wong »

People don't like the idea of a hegemon. They do not hate America the country or Americans as people so much as they hate the concept of Unilateral American Globocop.

EDIT: to clarify, people are afraid of America turning into that mythical character known as the benevolent dictator, because nobody trusts a benevolent dictator to remain benevolent. Hence the fear of American power. Do you see why protestations of benevolence don't make a dent in their fears?
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Post by Perinquus »

Spyder wrote:Given that the media cries Sarin every time a soldier gets the sniffles, even moving in one barrel would give them ample ammunition to spin it into a massive WMD stockpile.
No it wouldn't. You need something that's going to hold up under scrutiny as real evidence of Saddam Hussein's intent to hang onto WMDs. A barrel or two of material in some out of the way place that the Iraqis could credibly claim was simply lost in the bureaucratic red tape shuffle won't do. You don't need something that you can spin into WMD stockplie (and which closer investigation will reveal to be a mountain made out of a molehill), you need a real WMD stockpile. For something like this, on the scale you'd need, there are simply too many people who would have to be in on it for you to maintain secrecy, against the efforts of all the skeptics who would be probing to reveal it.
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Post by The Dark »

Ted wrote:
Colonel Olrik wrote:If you want to hijack your own thread, go ahead, but this has nothing to do with the death penalty. Capital punishement has been considered illegal in the E.U, regardless what you may think of it. I happen to think it was a good decision.
Capital punishment is also against the UN Charter of Human Rights.
One of the reasons why America is a big violator of human rights.
IMO, the UN Charter of Human Rights is inherently self-contradictory anyway. There are times where allowing a violent criminal to live is opposed to the "security of person" that the Charter professes to support.

Besides, since when is the right to paid vacation a basic human right?

And some of the rights are worded so poorly as to make every nation a violator. Article 13 states that all people have the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state. Unfortunately, that makes prison a human rights violation under a strict interpretation of the charter.

And it doesn't matter if a nation's charter forbids extradition to a nation with the death penalty. Allowing him to walk free violated Article 14 of the Charter. While everyone has the right to seek asylum, "This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes..."
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Post by TheDarkling »

Yeah and that hurt Chirac, the rest of what you said isn't really relevant it isn't the factual statements that I am saying made them look idiotic it was all the "old Europe" rhetoric and the like.

As for the bullying, things like with us of the terrorists where foot swallowing moments.

On the second matter yes it is ridiculous and I was hoping you could see my point however I will elaborate - you are asking the EU to partake in an action that they find morally reprehensible and I was then asking if the US would openly partake in such things.

I was also wondering why you think the EU should ignore its morality to make foreign nations (in this case the US) happy.

I didn't say it was barbaric what I was saying was that your ridicule of the EU's system would be equivalent to me making such a statement and then saying the US is in the wrong and should change from such an obviously flawed system.

Personally however I don't favour the death penalty but I couldn't care less if the US carries it out, it is really none of my concern.
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Post by Durandal »

Why is this such a big deal? Take a poll and you'll probably find that a good amount of Americans have an unfavorable of the EU, as well.
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Post by Spyder »

Darth Wong wrote:People don't like the idea of a hegemon. They do not hate America the country or Americans as people so much as they hate the concept of Unilateral American Globocop.

EDIT: to clarify, people are afraid of America turning into that mythical character known as the benevolent dictator, because nobody trusts a benevolent dictator to remain benevolent. Hence the fear of American power. Do you see why protestations of benevolence don't make a dent in their fears?
People that have been to the US before, myself included, usually have a more positive opinion about the American people then those that just see America through the media.

Also on an obvious note, the now widespread use of the internet has proven that a shithead from Texas isn't really any different from a shithead from Iceland. They may be shitheads for different reasons, but they're still shitheads.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Spyder wrote:People that have been to the US before, myself included, usually have a more positive opinion about the American people then those that just see America through the media.
Americans are nice people with a history of ruthless foreign policy.
Also on an obvious note, the now widespread use of the internet has proven that a shithead from Texas isn't really any different from a shithead from Iceland. They may be shitheads for different reasons, but they're still shitheads.
Mostly true, although I would submit that there are certain breeds of shithead which mostly come from the Americas, particular the tiny-brained variety of shithead known as creationistica moronica fundamentalistica.
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Post by Stormbringer »

Darth Wong wrote:People don't like the idea of a hegemon. They do not hate America the country or Americans as people so much as they hate the concept of Unilateral American Globocop.
Yet they want that American Globocop to take care of their problems. Any one notice the hypocrisy of that?
Darth Wong wrote:EDIT: to clarify, people are afraid of America turning into that mythical character known as the benevolent dictator, because nobody trusts a benevolent dictator to remain benevolent. Hence the fear of American power. Do you see why protestations of benevolence don't make a dent in their fears?
I can understand that but the knee jerk manner they fear us taking any action on our own is ridiculous. They fear any American action for no good reason. And yet they in many cases want America to act in actions they want. Hypocrisy and foolishness at best.
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Post by Colonel Olrik »

Then I would ask you why you think it is barbaric to take a man who has proved beyong any shadow of doubt that he does not respect in the slightest the right to life of other people, and make him forfeit his own. I'm looking for a rational justification mind you, not some appeal to emotion like "an eye for an eye leaves us all blind", like I usually get in response to such a question.
You cannot garantee me that all death sentences will be given to the right man. It is possible to correct a life time sentence injustice, it's impossible to give an innocent dead man his life.

Similarly, the reasons to commit murder are not all equal. If a person commit manslaugher of his family due to a profound desequilibrium in his mind, and feels sorrow for it, there's no reason why he will repeat murder, or why he can't be allowed to live imprisioned, repenting for his actions, doing something useful for the community.
A case is a case, you can't see in someone's future and be sure that he'll never repent, and change is ways.

A person in jail can harm nobody. At most, he costs money to maintain. In this case, that cannot be the criterium. You cannot say that he suffers less passing a life in jail than being put to death, or that he'll never change.
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Post by Stormbringer »

Americans are nice people with a history of ruthless foreign policy.
Which could be said of almost any modern first world nation if not worse. It hardly make America unique.
Mostly true, although I would submit that there are certain breeds of shithead which mostly come from the Americas, particular the tiny-brained variety of shithead known as creationistica moronica fundamentalistica.
There are. However there are as many religious shitheads else where as well.
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