ST's best side and SW's worst side

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-08-31 11:03am

Cpt_Frank : Yes torps have been seen in use by the Romulans but onkly against shields which fits in with my theory when used against a planet (TDiC) they display far more fire power which where the Plasma torps being less effective against shields comes in.

However these torps may not vbe plasma torps - theres no way t know.

Sorry for the outburst the last line got me a little mad but since you didnt mean it that way I will just forget about it.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-08-31 11:07am

Ok now then for your convenience here's a relevant response:

Assuming the Romulans can shoot 4 torps every 30 seconds that makes
1 teraton right?

(use see how effective protons torps are against them),

Stackpole. I hate that bastard.
An ISD has 3 heavy TL turrets it can use for a broad side each with 4 canons but assume it only uses 2 at once per turret and let's also assume each gun only has 250 gigatons like the acclamator.
Then 1 broadside would be 6x250 gigatons makes 1.5 teratons
You claimed that several teratons would lead to a temporary shield failure however an ISD can take several broadsides from weaponry as stron as his own.
So let's assume 3 teratons at once suffice to cause a temporary shield failure, which means one out of the many shields fails, that means you need 3 Rom ships to cause a temporary shield failure.
Any corrections/objections?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-08-31 11:19am

Cpt_Frank: Well I actually said 5 on one further up just be on the safe side which would may 5 Teratons.

I was also thinking about an ISD getting caught off guard so it cant escape, the empires cloak detectors are C right? that means that a Romulan fleet could fire and the lpasma torp would travel faster than the sensors telling the ISD the ships were there.

Hmm I wonder if TNG Romulan vessles can fire torps while cloaked or if its just beam weapons.

In the end all it would mean is that a fleet of ISDs would be needed to take on the Romulans instead of one, the Romulans would eventually fall to superior numbers but 5 Ship groups could then lead terrorist raids against ISD's in orbit of Romulan planets.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2002-08-31 11:26am

So where did these 256 gigaton torps come from? I haven't seen much Trek in a while so excuse my ignorance.

In either event, it matters less. As before mention an ISD can withstand 30 minutes of concentrated fire from various cap ship TLs, AND fighters. These torpedoes can also be downed by flak fire.

Furthermore, they're very inconsistent. Romulan Warbirds have been damaged/destroyed by pho torps correct? We know their max yield is 64 megatons. If these Roms can fire 256 gigaton torps, how come they can't even stand (most likley) less than 1 gig bombardments on themselves?

Even if we do assume they exsist, they still don't match up against an ISDs firepower. So they have a torp with the firepower of one of their medium TLs. They've had worse (Rebels...) and conquered them with ease. And seeing as they can be destroyed by less than 1 gig attacks (canon) I fail to see how they can cause any real damage to an ISD.

And kudos to Mike for getting back to the website after sucha long hiatus.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-08-31 11:50am

Well Darkling is suggesting hit-and run attacks with the cloak on an ISD, actually the best they can do.
Nonetheless we're using the absolute lower limits for ISD shielding here.
We assume the heavy guns are 250 gigatons, very generous in light of the acclamator's 200 gigatons, and we also assume a temporary shield failure can be caused by 5 teratons, also very generous.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-08-31 12:30pm

I'm sorry, Darkling, maybe I'm missing it. How do we know that these weapons can hit starships at the range you are suggesting?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-08-31 02:33pm

The Ent Nil backed off at emergency warp and after two minutes it began to break up, Taking emergency warp as C (very conservative assumption) we 120 * 300,000 KM which gives us 32 Million Km Approx.

Im off to a wedding party Ill be back tomorrow if you have further questions/comments.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-08-31 03:41pm

Hmm.
A temporary shield failure occurs if the shield receives extraordinary punishment at one spot within a short ammount of time.
Using 250 gigaton heavy guns for the ISD, is 5 teratons extraordinary considering it took 30 minutes of constant punishment with weapons like his own?

A scenario:
mission objective for ISD: destroy all major industrial centers on major planet.

the ISD's shields can be overcome by 5 teratons and a temporary failure can be caused, mind you temporary ie they will soon be restored.

mission objectice for Romulan defense fleet consisting of 5 warbirds:
force ISD to ultimately retreat, cripple it, or destroy it.

the Romulan fleet is 60 million km away and we assume their maximum range is at 200. each warbird can shoot 4 torps every 30 seconds

ISD drops out of hyperspace and starts to fire instantly.
5 seconds until the Romulans react and start targeting
3 seconds until they get a lock on the vessel
2 seconds extra for reaction time (pushing the buttons)
that means 10 seconds for the ISD to shoot at the planet.
ISD is hit by Romulan weapons, aft starboard shield temporarily fails
ISD jumps out of system
ISD waits until shield is restored
ISD jumps in again jumping out after 5 seconds of bombardment
with this tactic, the planet is soon destroyed.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-08-31 03:58pm

another one:

fleet engagement

Imperial objective: kill the defending fleet or force it to retreat

Romulan objective: withdraw, cripple or destroy attackers

Imperial ships:
10 ISD

Romulan ships:
50 warbirds

Imperial fleet jumps in. Romulans decloak, ie get the first shot.
parts of the shields on all ISD temporary fail
warbirds shoot with disruptors
shoots are harmlessly dissipated by the ISD's armor or cause minor surface damage (doesn't matter either way)
ISDs have targeted warbirds. 10 ISDs with 6 heavy TL turrets each = 60 heavy turrets which each can kill 1 warbird with a single shot.
First salvo kills 25 warbirds, ie 50% of shots miss.
Second salvo 2 seconds later kill 25 warbirds.

Conclusion: The actual worth of the plasma torp are sneak attacks on individual ships.

Corrections, objections and concessions are welcome

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-09-01 10:12am

So let's assume 3 teratons at once suffice to cause a temporary shield failure, which means one out of the many shields fails, that means you need 3 Rom ships to cause a temporary shield failure.

I thought we agreed on 3 Teratons?

For the first setup how far does the ISD jump? because if it jumps anywhere within warping range then the Warbirds can follow it.
The planet is going to have important areas shielded at least if it doesnt have a planet wide shield.
The planet if its a mjor one will have its own weapons system which could fire on the ISD (these may or may not include torps I think Plasma torps were used as a planetary defense during DS9 ) once its shields were down.

The ISD also has problems for it to jump in then get out again that fast because its going to have to turn in real space to jump out again and ISD's arent the most nimble ships ever.
The time taken to do all of this may allow the Romulans to bring in additional ships.

If everything possible goes in the Imps favour they may pull it off but with one extra ship or slightly weaker shields the Imps are done for.

Now the Second Situation.

The Warbirds double up i.e 10 Warbirds on 5 thats 5 teratons hitting bare hull which means the ISDs are going to have hull gashes and possible critical system failure.

The Warbirds at this point are at the edge of 300,000 KM which after they fire they take off leaving 5 ISDs listing in space and the other five looking for them.
After the Thirty seconds the Warbirds fire again possibly at the damaged ships depending on how functional they are or they damage the other 5 ships.

You are also forgetting that TL's May be plasma weapons if they are then a Romulan ship could actually take a HTL or two before getting destroyed.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-09-01 11:22am

5 teraton while still being extremely generous is more realistic.

The planet is going to have important areas shielded at least if it doesnt have a planet wide shield.
The planet if its a mjor one will have its own weapons system which could fire on the ISD (these may or may not include torps I think Plasma torps were used as a planetary defense during DS9 ) once its shields were down.

ST shields are useless against the ISD'S firepower.
Even assuming that they are 100 times stronger than the capital ship shields, that'd place them (assuming a generous 500mt for E-D's shields)
that'd place them at 50 gigatons, easy to tear down
And the planetary defense arrays are irrelevant anyway if they aren'T the uber-plasmatorps.

The ISD also has problems for it to jump in then get out again that fast because its going to have to turn in real space to jump out again and ISD's arent the most nimble ships ever.
The time taken to do all of this may allow the Romulans to bring in additional ships.

The ISD can maneuver in hyperspace IIRC. And the speed of warp drive will not allow the Romulans to bring in reinforcements fast enough from a nearby system. They'll probably need 30 minutes to 1 hour.

The Warbirds double up i.e 10 Warbirds on 5 thats 5 teratons hitting bare hull which means the ISDs are going to have hull gashes and possible critical system failure.

Ahh I love the decentralized structure of the ISD, heavy local damage and the ship still continues to function.
Doesn't matter either way since 1 heavy gun shot means 1 dead warbird.

And TL are not plasma weapons. The invisible beam does the damage.
(I thought that was established?).

However, the second scenario disregards the range advantadge of the romulan torp so I'll make a new one.
Btw just as a reminder 3 or 5 teratons as shield limit for temproary is mind-boggling generous, as is assuming the ISD's heavy guns are 250 gigatons, but we just assume it here since we plot ST's best against SW's worst.

Btw anyone knows how long it takes an ISD to re-route shield energy to the shield that temporarily failed?
And is 4 torps every 30 seconds the right refire rate?

Post by **NecronLord** » 2002-09-01 12:23pm

Cpt_Frank: Well I actually said 5 on one further up just be on the safe side which would may 5 Teratons.

I was also thinking about an ISD getting caught off guard so it cant escape, the empires cloak detectors are C right? that means that a Romulan fleet could fire and the lpasma torp would travel faster than the sensors telling the ISD the ships were there.

why do they function at C, they are CGT arrays, they detect the force acting on them from the enemy vessel. It's instantanious isn't it?

Second can we have some screenshots of this famous plasma torpedo of death? as if we can see them before they pass the target then they are not FTL are they?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-09-01 01:47pm

NecronLord: They overtake a ship moving at warp you figure it out.

Cpt_Frank: We are being Generous assuming that the Plasma torp hasnt increased in 100 years aswell so assuming HTL's havent improved in 20 years seems fair.

Also the beam doing all the damage doesnt make much sense especially since its worth spinning the plasma bolt to decrease energy loss, if it doesnt have much energy why bother? also if range depletion is that much of a problem 200 GT out of the HTL may not be 200 GT hitting the target.
I dont want to get into the nature of HTL's though so lets say you are right (I disagree however).

Taking the bridge off of the ISD takes lomnger than 30 Seconds to recover from then hitting that area again will cause even further damage.

We are also taking low end for the plasma torp here (in range and speed) and if the 5 Teratons make is correct then Proton torps are in the gigaton range (mid to high) which doesnt really fit, it seems that imp shields can be overloaded with alot of fire to one shield.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-09-01 03:17pm

Cpt_Frank: We are being Generous assuming that the Plasma torp hasnt increased in 100 years aswell so assuming HTL's havent improved in 20 years seems fair.

No, regarding evidence that weapon yields decreased massivley between TOS and TNG we are assuming that they are still as strong as they where during TOS!
And the Acclamator's guns are, from the size, only medium guns on an ISD, so we are being extremely generous to trek here since we are plotting SW worst against ST best.

Now anyone has an idea how long it takes for an ISD to re-reoute power to temporary failing shield? More than 30 seconds or less?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-09-01 04:16pm

There is no evidence Romulan weapons decreased in power so saying they stayed still for a 100 years is conservative but in absence of other evidence, I still dont get why 5 Teratons is conservative though since proton torps can bring down shields it seems concentrated fire will bring down a shield.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-09-01 04:26pm

Well evidence is that since federation shields can't take much more than 5 or 6 64 megaton proton torps, though it might be that ST shields are super-effective against plasma weapons.

And IIRC those where large numbers of telemetry-synchronized proton torps, and if you look at the size of the ISD's guns and scale power levels up you come into the petaton range so yes, 250 gigaton heavy tl and 5 teraton limit are EXTREMELY generous.