Does Trek has *any* advantage over Wars?

[Kuja]

I seem to remeber in the one other case where the bridge feel, on admiral trigits flahsgip, see wraith squardren...

That was an AMBUSH, you dumbass. Trigit didn't expect his fucking ESCORTS to turn on him. Did you even READ the book?

It took them about *srugs* 10 fucking scends mabey. You would think the flagship of the entire inprial navy would have quicker responces...

I don't even know what the frell you're saying here.

As for the actions of the empire as a whole...
This is the emporer and Grand moff tarkin here, they MADE the empire, or at least te emporer did, and Tarkin was one of its most powerful figures.
You get in power by have more sence than the person who was in power last, so if thats the hight of inprial intellegence - Thrawn. Case in point.

1. Being good in politics != being good in military tactics.

2. Thrawn was not the last Imperial leader.

Was there anything else?
Admiral Jackass.

Yes.

"Your thoughts dwell on your pants."
"I miss them."

[Darth Wong]

Why do we even bother answering spaceluigi's trolling bullshit? His quantum physics nonsense is completely wrong; QM predictions on ZPE are vastly overstated and limited by observed curvature of spacetime. He is using discredited theories to override observation.

[Kuja]

Why do we even bother answering spaceluigi's trolling bullshit?

It's good practice?

[Ted C]

Why do we even bother answering spaceluigi's trolling bullshit?

Because some acts of blatant stupidity generate a gut level need to act, and smacking him in the face isn't a viable option?

[Lord Pounder]

I said it before that Luigi was The Admiral. IP ban the lot of them. Fuck that cunt Queen Selbron or what ever you all him.

[The Admiral]

Darth Wong Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2003 11:15 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Admiral wrote:
But you don't need to do any of that, the are crew allready on the secondary bridge. It would be hard to miss the bridge going down, and you don't need to stop its foward momentum.

Why would the designers expect that they'd have to be able to switch control in less than 10 seconds? They probably have a checklist that they run through, like any military operation. This is like asking why a fighter pilot must do a walkaround of his plane before getting in and taking off. Are you saying that there should be a big red button you just push? Over-automation often leads to a loss of robustness, and the whole point of a secondary bridge is that you take over in the event of damage, so you can't assume everything is working perfectly. Think about it.


The scean on the SSD backup bridge before it crashes...

"Captain the bridge has been distroyed!"
"hold on, I have a checklist here, wait a sec, ok..."
"Captain where going to crash!"
"Do we, have any... Um.. Hydrospanners here, it says something sbout the primary flux cupling..."
"Look out!"

Somehow I think the designers of the backup brige mught of deginged it to take over quicky that is after al what it was bulit for...

Admiral

[Lord Pounder]

Are you just making shit up now for the fun of it you assclown. If Wong said that why isn't it in proper quotes?

[The Admiral]

And I am not this lugi bloke...
I may have bad spelling, my arguements may have holes in them but that dosn't mean I'm just the smae as everyone else who comes here with bad arugements, and spelling.
There's no need to get worked up, if someone trys to prove something, and there wrong, then tell them point out why, don't post abuse at them, that just shows, flaws in your own charters.

Admiral

[The Admiral]

Because I fine it so much easyer to just paste the whole post...

Admiral

[neoolong]

The scean on the SSD backup bridge before it crashes...

"Captain the bridge has been distroyed!"
"hold on, I have a checklist here, wait a sec, ok..."
"Captain where going to crash!"
"Do we, have any... Um.. Hydrospanners here, it says something sbout the primary flux cupling..."
"Look out!"

Somehow I think the designers of the backup brige mught of deginged it to take over quicky that is after al what it was bulit for...

Admiral

You think bullshit like that is actually going to happen? If they didn't have a strict format for what should happen somebody could just divert command whenever anything goes wrong. Besides, they wouldn't be stupid enough to NOT know where the checklist is, even aside from the fact that it would be good to memorize it.

Quickly, the change should be. But not instanteounsly.

Or do you have some evidence to back up how it would happen the way you think it does?

[The Admiral]

Other than the scean on the inplaceable, which was over a moon and lost its bridge and failed to crash till after its powercells went out.
Not really, I'm looking for something a half remeber which states what happens, but util i find that I'm afiad I stand with out proof, and as such have at best a wobbly arugement.

Admiral

[Darth Wong]

The scean on the SSD backup bridge before it crashes...

"Captain the bridge has been distroyed!"
"hold on, I have a checklist here, wait a sec, ok..."
"Captain where going to crash!"
"Do we, have any... Um.. Hydrospanners here, it says something sbout the primary flux cupling..."
"Look out!"

Somehow I think the designers of the backup brige mught of deginged it to take over quicky that is after al what it was bulit for...

Since you obviously have little education and no knowledge of engineering, I will try to be civil about this. You have to design something to meet the projected requirements. In battle with a ship that has very low maneuverability and independently controlled gunnery stations, there is NO NEED FOR NEAR-INSTANT BRIDGE CONTROL CHANGEOVER.

Therefore, there is no reason to design a low-robustness system in order to make that possible. It was a freak event which caused this to turn into a disaster; under normal conditions the ship would just coast forward, all of its guns still blazing away at the enemy, until they perform the changeover properly. You can't even set up a large machinegun in 10 seconds; what makes you think it's so ludicrous for them to be unable to change bridges in 10 seconds?

[Ender]

Hmm... read the fucking web site?

Try reading the fucking essential guides.

Think of it this way. The X-Wings are getting shot at by the ISD's light turbolaser batteries. The sensor globes may feed tracking/targetting information to those batteries, and knocking them out would lower the effectiveness of the weapons by forcing them to rely on local targeting capability. If nothing else, blowing up the sensor globes only required a few hits from starfighter-grade laser weapons, and as long as they had a clear shot at them why not blow them up in passing?

And if those *were* shield generators, why would blowing up both of them *only* drop the bridge deflector shield?

One of them is for the bridge, the other is for the rest of the ship. Don't believe me, CHECK THE ESSENTIAL GUIDES, BOTH VEHICLES AND VESSELS AND WEAPONS AND TECHNOLOGY.

PS: I didn't see anyone correct him.

How about you do some damn research? The EGVV is for an early ISD1, after the destruction of the Devestator and Operation Ram's Head the Imperials refitted their ISDs so that the shield generators were not located right by the sensor domes anymore.

[Ender]

First of all, the Star Wars Essential Guides have the copyright from Lucasfilm. Now, I assume that's what we go by, or do we simply go by whatever makes Star Wars look good and whatever makes Star Trek look bad?

How about we go by the truth, you know, that thing you try to ignore and hide?

Moving on.

Alright, you wanna know what Star Trek has? Here. READ.

You say your fighters have hulls that can stand multi-kiloton blasts? BULLSHIT! X-Wings hull’s are made of Titanium! Source: The Essential Guide to Vehicles an Vessels!

Who has ever claimed their hulls can withstand it? Without their shields the things are dead. We see that in the movies. Further, it is not pure titanitum.

Star Trek doesn’t even stoop to using fighters, we’re already coming to a close to manned fightercraft today! Dammit, a guy interviewed on CNN said that! And as a matter of fact, I have heard of the F-22, and the rest of the fighters. THEY ARE THE LAST. Ever heard of Predator? Yeah… gee… let’s wonder why the manned fightercraft program is ending… technology improves, and it isn’t safe to put a guy in a skimpy fighter today! The only reason we haven’t lost more guys flying in Iraq is because… they don’t have half the force we do!

Both a red herring, appeal to authority, unnamed source, and incorrect. That's not a triple double, is ther such a thing as quadruple triple?

Anyhow, Star Trek ships use duranium and tritanium! Duranium = Extremely hard to cut, Star Trek Encyclopedia; Titanium = Used in A-10’s TODAY!

Relevence?

Your damn laser cannons… oh, they’re not lasers, they only have the word laser in them… well, they are… partly. It’s a beam of light and charged particles *slap* gee, that sounds like it could deck a Constitution class in three hits… especially considering that we matched that exact technology in the 1960’s as an orbital missile defense… Source: The Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology and the National Air and Space Museum

Wow. 1) we never mastered particle beam technology in any form. In fact, we are just starting to get basic ones together today that are only kilowatt level
2) Technology tier fallacy

Your damn “Proton Torpedoes” and “Concussion Missiles” are powerful, but there’s one teeny tiny problem… they still use explosive warheads.

All missiles do. For something to explode, it must be an explosive warhead.

Powerful chemical explosive warheads, but chemical warheads nonetheless.

Source? And I'd love to knbow how you can get a KT level yield out of a foot long container of chemicals.

They can take out ground installations at best. They’re the equivalent of bunker busters today.

Since when are bunker busters more powerful then nuclear warheads?

Furthermore, they can travel a whole 300-700… METERS!

Contradicted by the movies where we see a KM range in ANH.

This bullshit about an X-Wing possessing enough firepower to confidently duke it out with a Federation fleet? It’s exactly that…bullshit. Source: The Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology…

Nice of you to actually provide quotes or any semblance of the truth.

Trek Photon Torpedoes can easily wipe their viewscreens clean of any Star Wars bug nearby. They use matter and antimatter to kill, with an effective explosive yield of 200 isotons

A nonsense number and unit within trek. If you want to take that literally though an AT-AT out guns it by a massive amount based on onscreen cannon.

Then there’s the Quantum Torpedo, utilizing the most powerful energy the universe has to offer: Quintessence, Zero-Point Energy (ZPE) or Vacuum Energy, call it what you want! It’s called ZPE because there is another energy out there keeping it at bay… and keeping us alive… if it weren’t out there the universe would expand so fast the electrostatic and nuclear bonds of all matter and energy would cease to exist! It is on the magnitude of 120 orders more powerful than ALL the matter and energy in the universe! It is at a constant density, and can never be used up as the universe expands, doesn’t mean this energy does! There is enough energy in at most 1 coffee cup full of it that IT CAN BOIL THE EARTH’S OCEANS AWAY.

So because the names are the same they must have the same power, even though the visuals show that to be false, right? And your claims about ZPE are based on old faulty information, I suggest you read some of the latest stuff out there on the topic.

Oh, yes, I forgot to add: The range on these mothers is 3.5 million kilometers. As opposed to 300-700 meters. Source: Star Trek Encyclopedia (photon torp) and physicsweb.org (quantum torp)

We have. If you had a basic understanding of reality you would see that.

[Ender]

a complete waste of 0's and 1's.

I assume you are speaking of your own posts.

[Ender]

"It looked sad" is a ridiculous effort at an argument.

Very good. They only call c the speed of light, but I guess light can't move at c. Ok, anyhow, I've just figured a weapon that could easily decimate the Death Star in one shot, thus one siding the battle. Don't worry though, you still have your fighters that possess the firepower of a small Federation fleet... without quantum torpedoes.

Quantum torpedoes use a subtle, little known energy known by many names. "Quintessence", "Zero-point energy" or "ZPE", and lastly, the common name is simply vacuum energy. It exists where nothing else does, in a non-particulate form. It is instead of attracted to, repelled by gravity (justifying why is exists in vacuums). It houses 2/3 of the universe's energy, and has been nearly proven with instances of the Casmir Effect. It is such a dense energy, that if its negating counterpart were not present, the universe would expand so fast that all particle electrostatic and nuclear bonds would be broken. Now, Quantum torpedoes can't trigger a universal release of this energy, but they can trigger a local release of the energy (by negating the counterpart force). It doesn't matter how strong you boast your shields to be. It doesn't matter what armor you have. And starfighters, as said earlier, are little more than cannon fodder. If that controlling energy is released locally, even for a billionth of a second, the damage would be catastrophic. Even to the Enterprise. But, nevertheless the Federation has utilized them, on Starfleet vessels.

If you don't believe me, look at this. The Star Trek Encyclopedia simply states that quantum torpedoes trigger a localized release. Now, the Encyclopedia has been used ONLY to identify the principle behind the Quantum Torpedoes.

PhysicsWeb.org -- "Today's cosmologists find Lambda to be just as objectionable, but for a different reason. All quantum fields possess a finite amount of "zero-point" vacuum energy as a result of the uncertainty principle. A naive estimate of the zero-point energy predicts a vacuum energy density that is 120 orders of magnitude greater than the energy density of all the other matter in the universe. If the vacuum energy density really is so enormous, it would cause an exponentially rapid expansion of the universe that would rip apart all the electrostatic and nuclear bonds that hold atoms and molecules together. There would be no galaxies, stars or energy as we know it."

www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/PAO/html/warp/possible.htm#vac -- "In simplistic terms it has been said that there is enough energy in the volume the size of a coffee cup to boil away Earth’s oceans." (Popular Science, May 2001, mentioned the 1 cc of space could tackle the whole boil the oceans thing)

There ya go.

As always you stupidly think that because the names are the same that the power is the same even though that is demonstratebly false.

[Ender]

Source for kiloton lasers? Is it backed by Lucasfilm or is it an independant website?

AOTC ICS by lucas film, also calcualtable from the asteroid scene in AOTC, I have the calcs but must locate the pics that go with them.

Very good... except that I didn't say lasers were lasers in that post. They are partially a laser, with added charged/energetic particles. Why can you see it? As cited from the Star Wars Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology, "While most pilots prefer visual sighting, - which is why most energy beams are configured to the visible light spectrum..." it goes on to say stuff about targeting computers.

Have you even seen the movies? ANH: Targeting computers can have their sensors jammed.

Again, for the KT-GT damage? Where's the proof?

Published in AOTC ICS and calculatable. I can post them if you would like.

And yet...

Do you not understand that "It looked sad" is totally different from "that scene is totally in contradiction of your claim"?

So therefore, since they way it looked in the show has no relevance, I post this.

Bullshit. What we see is vastly more important then the name.

I concede defeat THERE, AND ONLY THERE.

Get ready to concede some more

[Ender]

I quote:
This is s**t, I'm sorry but do you read the books? How many times do we have X-wings takeing down star destroys turbolarer battries, how about SOTP where the pirates, start busting the Chimruas turbolasers i one quardrent so they can kick peallons ass. And don't say thats not cannon because you've quoted it before.

It's not canon. Its official. get them straight.

Thats like saying the DS1 schilds have to be brought down before luke could of stafted it. SW schilds, extend out from the ship, things fly thought the schild barrer...
I take your attention to TCPL where Han flys along The iron fist, Lucke says "We're UNDER the schilds you can fire any time" Then he blates the bridge, COMEONE where the hell does any of that point to you needing to take down the schilds before you can blow up things on the SD?
I rest my case.

Admiral

Shields can have their distance from the hull varied. It would help to remember that the Iron fist was in drydock at the time for repairs, and thus it would have been the extended shields of itself and of the station protecting it.

[Ender]

SO now we can prove, that ST nothing ever gets under schilds meaning that allthought weaker ST shilds have better cover.
So treck doe have a advatage.

No, see above. And Trek shields have horrendous bleed through from beam weapons because of how they operate.

Also I seem to remeber runabouts would do the trick nicely.
Or those perigrin attack FIGHTERS seen in DS9.

Thos things are the size of the falcon!

SO there.


Admiral

It helkps to be right if you are going to act superior.

[Ender]

No NO...
In 1/2 of the X-wing books, where 1 squad of X-wing's are after an ISD say the bacta war, the Victory the gets it ass kicked in the remain sof ALderian. Was not under hevey bonbardment, nor where 1/2 the other times where X-wing droppe under schilds...
So There we go.

Admiral

So 2 dozen fighters packing torpedoes designed to hurt cap ships, along with a few dozen freighters that in later books show them selves to pack sufficient punch to hold their own, plus a light cruiser, manage to drop part of the shields of a 28 year old cruiser.

Amazing

[Ender]

How did you guess?
There is one last thing I have to add, 2 more advatages.
1)Viewscreens.

Go watch TPM, ok? We see them when the Viceroy talks to amidala.

2) Begin able to go fater than light while still inside a planets gravity well, makeing them inmune to intrictors.

Immune to interdictors yes. But not for why you say. Had a multi thousand ton vessel really gone to 102 C inside the atmosphere like Kirk ordered, Earth would have been fucked. Sulu probably took them out then turned it on.

[Ender]

Which takes time, unlike ST ships...
It seems a bit funny though, when people are "On no an interdictor"
Instead of "Turn the navicomp safty of and lets go"
???

Admiral

It's hardwired in. You have to literally sever the connections and it's dangerous as all hell

[Ender]

Top ten reasons why the empuire is to stupid to suvive.

1) the empire locked the Grand admirals in the quarters while DS2 was under attack

Star Wars Insider says you are wrong. One was using the darkside to help coordinate the fleet whiel the others were advising him while the Emperor delt with Luke.

2)The first death starnever raised its schilds.

Go watch the movie and look at the kind of damage they were doing until they got to the shaft that they weren't even aware was a vulnerability until the battle was on and they were under the shields. They were doing jack shit. No real reason to raise them.

3)All there systems can be hacked by a r2 unit.

Wrong, contradicted by the novels and movie

4)There bridges have a nice clear viewport to shoot offciers though.

Covered by shields

5)they made a deal with the ssi-ruuk

Whom Thrawn was kicking the crap out of. Palpatine double crossed them.

6)They didn't blow up mon-cal, they bew up alldrean.

Jesus, watch the fucking movie. There is a rason for that you tit.

7)They don't know when to quit.

They did surrender you tit. they also fled Endor when it was clear they lost, and Thrawn did it all the time. It's Kirk who faught on to the bitter end

They lost to the rebels, after haveing the enitre galaxy.

Britain lost to America after having most of the world

9) the empire is run by a guy that wasn't even a captain at endor...

Most countries are run by poloticians you retard.

10)they let Incom defect.

Not, they didn't. They nationalized the sucker and only a few people with prototypes got away.

Hows that?
Admiral

0 for 10
Ender

[Darth Garden Gnome]

I see you have your sources also.

Indeed. And, AFAIK, my sources override your sources.

Source for kiloton lasers? Is it backed by Lucasfilm or is it an independant website?

AOTC, the Slave 1's asteroid destruction with its lasers. Also, the EpII ICS.

I suppose I should point out that photon torpedoes must use light as it attack because its in its name, and that phaser rifles must be projectile launchers, because of the fact that the barrel must be rifled.

Again, for the KT-GT damage? Where's the proof?

AOTC, Slave 1's asteroid destruction with its seismic charges have been calculated into abotu 12GT. IIRC asteroid destruction by ISD in TESB is at least in MT area. BDZing alone takes huge amounts of energy. And for all your complaining (via PM) LFL Official Policy is that the EpII ICS is official, ie-correct in the SW universe unless DIRECTLY contradicted by canon. As such, Acclamator's have 200GT turbolasers.

The Trek Encyclopedia is NOT canon. Paramount's polocy on the matter is that ONLY the shows and the movies are canon. Period. Therefor your "ZPE" theory (which is sketchy at best, anyways) is irrelevent and non-canon. Aside Quantorps have never been witnessed using this god-awful power you have decided they have.

and I concede defeat THERE, AND ONLY THERE.

And yet you didn't adress my posts on torpedoes at all, you know-190MT with range of minumum 80KM (ANH)?

I suppose I can say concession excepted on all accounts anyways.

[Darth Wong]

PhysicsWeb.org -- "Today's cosmologists find Lambda to be just as objectionable, but for a different reason. All quantum fields possess a finite amount of "zero-point" vacuum energy as a result of the uncertainty principle. A naive estimate of the zero-point energy predicts a vacuum energy density that is 120 orders of magnitude greater than the energy density of all the other matter in the universe. If the vacuum energy density really is so enormous, it would cause an exponentially rapid expansion of the universe that would rip apart all the electrostatic and nuclear bonds that hold atoms and molecules together. There would be no galaxies, stars or energy as we know it."

www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/PAO/html/warp/possible.htm#vac -- "In simplistic terms it has been said that there is enough energy in the volume the size of a coffee cup to boil away Earth’s oceans." (Popular Science, May 2001, mentioned the 1 cc of space could tackle the whole boil the oceans thing)

As always you stupidly think that because the names are the same that the power is the same even though that is demonstratebly false.

Look carefully at those quotes in order to see what a moron he is. The physicsweb.org quote says it's a "naive estimate" which produced obviously erroneous predictions; that is a physicist's diplomatic talk for "completely wrong". Then he cites Popular Science, which in turn says "it has been said", even though the fact that something has "been said" hardly makes it correct. High estimates of ZPE have been completely disproven, and he is cherry-picking quotes from science websites in order to support his ridiculous figures.

Not to mention the fact that ZPE is only mentioned in the DS9 TM, which also says they're only twice as powerful as the torps which would have required hundreds of hits to destroy a 5km wide asteroid in "Pegasus".