Christian school.

[Superman]

Given my past of being raised in a fundie household, there is no way I would participate in religious bullshit like that. Since you are in a Christian school, you are kind of stuck. Wow. I don't know what to tell you; if they teach creationism don't buy it. Do the homework and learn the truth.

[Alyrium Denryle]

I'm not the dictator of the United States.

Yet...

[BlkbrryTheGreat]

Sure. I totally agree with you. But someone making you bow your head in reverence isn't a great all-encompasing, world-ending evil. You're making mountains out of molehills, IMO. I mean, I suppose if it offends you that much, you can refuse to bow your head. But then if it offends you to THAT degree, why are you even there at all?

Maybe if you read, carefull, what I posted previously that what I was refering to a given senario. The thread started with the requirement of attedence to a religous assembly with bowing ones head as part of the requirement. If you read what I p osted carefully you'll see that I stated explicitly that he should only refuse to bow his head if the consequences were negligible. I also pointed out that if you did chose to bow your head you should make it clear that your only doing so to gain something else from going through the motions, and that you are not doing so out of sincere benefit. The question is not only one of offense, but of being true to ones conscious convictions.

Sure. Take a stand against bad things. Ok. But in the case of Religion, you have to understand that there are people who are easily offended by your ostentatious displays of disregard. Religion is different than politics. Except in extreme nutball cases, religious beliefs don't kill people. There is no great evil to stand up against at, say, a Catholic mass. If you don't like it, don't go. That's a much more effective display of distaste for the Church than going and being a bastard about it. And it will make more people happy, too. If you're hoping to convert people by not bowing, you're in for a hell of a surprise. What are you expecting?

Once again if you read what was posted previously, in context, you would realize that what I said was said in a given context. I didn't suggest that one should go out of ones way to attend a mass to simply display disregard, but rather that if by some situation one is forced to go to a mass then you should show the ceremony the proper respect that it deserves.... none at all; which I might add is entirely different from showing disrespect. Again the point is not to try to make converts with your actions, but rather to have your actions reflect your true opinion on any given subject or object.

[master_yoda]

Ok, so I was christian at the time I joined this school. I'm not sure about if I was forced to goto this school or not. I'm sure I was, though

[Sir Sirius]

I wouldn't bow my head or show any respect towards YHWH or christianity in general. I am an Atheist and my Atheism is actualy a source of not at all unconsiderable amount of pride for me, I'll be damned before I prostitute my beleifs, or rather the lack of any, to please a bunch of theist.

In the and it comes down to this: "if you can't do the time, don't the crime." In other words if the consequences of not bowing your head are too severe for you to handle, bow your head.
Since the punisment, whatever it is, is unlikely to involve a flogging or a firing squad I wouldn't bow my head, but then again I am an ill-tempered troublemaker by nature and like to rock the boat just for laughs (particulary when I was a teen). So following my lead in these things is not necesarilly very smart.

I do have to note that many of the christian martyrs were killed for not showing the "proper respect" (as defined by the Romans) to the Emperor, christians take pride in the sacrifices of their martyrs. Now the roles have been sort of reversed and it is the christians who are punishing you for your beliefs, even though your actions are not really that much different from those of the martyrs. It might be worthwhile to mention this if the head bowing thing causes trouble.

*Edited to fix an uncanny amount of typos.*

[LadyTevar]

My My My... so many fervent Atheists...

Honestly now, is it so hard to simply bow your head and count the tiles on the floor as the reverend prays? Hell, I went to church of my own free will and did that sometimes when the prayer stretched out to five minutes or more. (yes, 5+ minute prayers. Gotta love Baptist Ministers)

Still... I may be a 'fallen Christian' since I've not set foot in a church since my niece's wedding last year, and not attended a service since last Easter... but I find it horribly ironic that some members of this board are so defensive about their beliefs (and I consider Atheism a belief) that they refuse to respect the beliefs of others.

After all... isn't that what most evangalistic Christians do to you?

Come to think of it, some of you are just as admant and pigheaded as many Christians I've known, refusing to accept that there might be another way.

*borrows her Father's firegear*
Refutations and Flames?

[Darth Wong]

My My My... so many fervent Atheists...

Honestly now, is it so hard to simply bow your head and count the tiles on the floor as the reverend prays? Hell, I went to church of my own free will and did that sometimes when the prayer stretched out to five minutes or more. (yes, 5+ minute prayers. Gotta love Baptist Ministers)

Asking someone to tolerate an imposition and then trying to paint him as being no better than the demanding party if he refuses is ridiculous. If you walked into my house and I demanded that you bow to me for five minutes in deference, would you say "come now, is it so hard" or would you say "what an asshole"?

Still... I may be a 'fallen Christian' since I've not set foot in a church since my niece's wedding last year, and not attended a service since last Easter... but I find it horribly ironic that some members of this board are so defensive about their beliefs (and I consider Atheism a belief) that they refuse to respect the beliefs of others.

Atheism is not a belief. It is explicitly defined as a lack of belief. If you care to argue this point, I can and will shred it.

After all... isn't that what most evangalistic Christians do to you?

No, they try to force others to do what they say and pay homage to what they believe. That is completely different than being defiant and refusing to let somebody else make you do something.

"Letting somebody else make me do something" != "Forcing others to do something"

Come to think of it, some of you are just as admant and pigheaded as many Christians I've known, refusing to accept that there might be another way.

There is a big difference between not wanting to let somebody else make you do something and trying to suppress alternate viewpoints.

*borrows her Father's firegear*
Refutations and Flames?

I was tempted to unleash the flames, but you're a lady

[Darth Gojira]

It depends. Which is more important, your ideals and thoughts, or your standing in the school?







I wouldn't be there in the first place.

P.S. Lady Tevar, use your head. Some of us are less forgiving than Darth Wong is......

[LadyTevar]

Asking someone to tolerate an imposition and then trying to paint him as being no better than the demanding party if he refuses is ridiculous. If you walked into my house and I demanded that you bow to me for five minutes in deference, would you say "come now, is it so hard" or would you say "what an asshole"?

If you believed that you were royalty and deserved the respect? Yes I would humor you in that respect, and possibly snigger at you once I left.

Atheism is not a belief. It is explicitly defined as a lack of belief. If you care to argue this point, I can and will shred it.

It is a lack of belief in a religion or 'supreme being', or so I have always heard it explained. If that is incorrect, please enlighten me.

Perhaps I may have used the wrong word. 'Belief' was used to refer to how a person choses to view the world, with or without religion. To my way of thinking, Atheism is a belief, because you have chosen to live your life by the fact that there is no 'supreme being' but only what you can define by nature or science.

No, they try to force others to do what they say and pay homage to what they believe. That is completely different than being defiant and refusing to let somebody else make you do something.

"Letting somebody else make me do something" != "Forcing others to do something".

There is a big difference between not wanting to let somebody else make you do something and trying to suppress alternate viewpoints.

Yet, when someone does voice an alternative viewpoint, as I have, you are quick to jump up and defend yourself, almost rabidly Atheist as I've seen rabid Christians. This may be a response to many Fundies on the board, whom I also find annoyingly singleminded in the 'I'm right, God's on my side' mentality. Still, from the threads I have read where you have been posting Atheism v/s Fundie Christians, you are as bulldoggish as they.

That is why I compared the two.

*borrows her Father's firegear*
Refutations and Flames?

I was tempted to unleash the flames, but you're a lady

I thank you, m'lord I hope we can keep this discussion gentlemanly (ladylike? ) and not lapse into juvenile name-calling.

EDIT: Corrected so quotes would show.

Corrected quote tags.
-Rampant AI

[Durandal]

If you believed that you were royalty and deserved the respect? Yes I would humor you in that respect, and possibly snigger at you once I left.

What if he believed that he was an all-powerful deity worthy of your worship who threatened to kill you, your family and your descendents for not doing what he said?

It is a lack of belief in a religion or 'supreme being', or so I have always heard it explained. If that is incorrect, please enlighten me.

That is correct.

Perhaps I may have used the wrong word. 'Belief' was used to refer to how a person choses to view the world, with or without religion. To my way of thinking, Atheism is a belief, because you have chosen to live your life by the fact that there is no 'supreme being' but only what you can define by nature or science.

If you're an atheist, you don't hold a belief in a supreme being, therefore atheism is a state of disbelief. Just replace "God" with "Santa Claus" or "The Easter Bunny" and all will become clear.

Yet, when someone does voice an alternative viewpoint, as I have, you are quick to jump up and defend yourself, almost rabidly Atheist as I've seen rabid Christians. This may be a response to many Fundies on the board, whom I also find annoyingly singleminded in the 'I'm right, God's on my side' mentality. Still, from the threads I have read where you have been posting Atheism v/s Fundie Christians, you are as bulldoggish as they.

That is why I compared the two.

That is essentially irrelevant. The fact is that the rabid Christians are mostly whiners or bitchy born-agains who ramble on about how great Jesus is. Atheists have logic and reason to back up their claims; some just happen to appear "rabid." The only thing bitchy Christians have going for them is the volume of their voices and the amount of attention they can attract to themselves.

[Darth Wong]

If you believed that you were royalty and deserved the respect? Yes I would humor you in that respect, and possibly snigger at you once I left.

How many times would you visit my house before you got fed up and refused to do it any more?

It is a lack of belief in a religion or 'supreme being', or so I have always heard it explained. If that is incorrect, please enlighten me.

Righto.

Perhaps I may have used the wrong word. 'Belief' was used to refer to how a person choses to view the world, with or without religion. To my way of thinking, Atheism is a belief, because you have chosen to live your life by the fact that there is no 'supreme being' but only what you can define by nature or science.

How does one live his life by the fact that there's no supreme being? Are you saying that it's a "belief" to base my actions only what I can see, hear, touch, etc? By that token, all animals subscribe to this "belief". Sorry, but basing your actions on the evidence of your senses is not a belief system; it is the default state of all living things.

Yet, when someone does voice an alternative viewpoint, as I have, you are quick to jump up and defend yourself, almost rabidly Atheist as I've seen rabid Christians.

Intensity of opinion does not equate to irrationality. A rabid fundie commits numerous serious errors in logic, employs demonstrably false claims, etc. If a "rabid atheist" (as you put it) contradicts him with facts and logic, you should not let the intensity of his reaction dictate your evaluation of its merits. Something is either rational or not, and the intensity with which it is expressed has nothing to do with that.

This may be a response to many Fundies on the board, whom I also find annoyingly singleminded in the 'I'm right, God's on my side' mentality. Still, from the threads I have read where you have been posting Atheism v/s Fundie Christians, you are as bulldoggish as they.

I never claimed not to be a bulldog. But that is not relevant to the question of whether something is a belief.

I thank you, m'lord I hope we can keep this discussion gentlemanly (ladylike? ) and not lapse into juvenile name-calling.

I tend to lapse into juvenile name-calling when the other person refuses to discuss points and resorts to sophistry. I haven't seen you do this, so juvenile name-calling would certainly be premature. Not to mention that gentleman thing

[BlkbrryTheGreat]

Yet, when someone does voice an alternative viewpoint, as I have, you are quick to jump up and defend yourself, almost rabidly Atheist as I've seen rabid Christians. This may be a response to many Fundies on the board, whom I also find annoyingly singleminded in the 'I'm right, God's on my side' mentality. Still, from the threads I have read where you have been posting Atheism v/s Fundie Christians, you are as bulldoggish as they.

That is why I compared the two.

Too bad your Alertnative viewpoint is that an Atheist should compromise his convictions to be polite and "respect the beliefs of others" by outwardly showing reverence towards something that is held in nothing but contempt by this person. Try reading and DEALING with previously posted arguements before rehashing the same bullshit that I already addressed.

Still... I may be a 'fallen Christian' since I've not set foot in a church since my niece's wedding last year, and not attended a service since last Easter... but I find it horribly ironic that some members of this board are so defensive about their beliefs (and I consider Atheism a belief) that they refuse to respect the beliefs of others.

Once again you've fucking ignored what I already posted. The question is that of making a rational judgement and standing by it. Having respect for the unfounded, irrational, superstitious "beliefs" of others is nothing more then a cop-out; your either refusing to make a moral judgement or your too much of a coward to stand by it. A case can be made for not being outward about such a judgement- when there are substancial negative consequences, but when there are no consequences it is inexcusable. The term most people use to refer to such individuals is "spineless".

[Kuroneko]

Perhaps I may have used the wrong word. 'Belief' was used to refer to how a person choses to view the world, with or without religion. To my way of thinking, Atheism is a belief, because you have chosen to live your life by the fact that there is no 'supreme being' but only what you can define by nature or science.

If you're an atheist, you don't hold a belief in a supreme being, therefore atheism is a state of disbelief. Just replace "God" with "Santa Claus" or "The Easter Bunny" and all will become clear.

Belief is the mental state of either accepting or rejecting a proposition. It seems a bit like splitting hairs, but every 'strong' atheist has a belief on this, it just happens to be the negation of the theist's. The only difference is how reasonable that belief is, which although is a very important difference, does not change belief in the fact that it is belief. I hold the belief that Santa Claus does not exist, and it a very reasonable thing to believe, but it still a belief.

[Darth Wong]

In the context of a religious discussion, it is generally understood that the word "belief" is short-hand for "acceptance without evidence or reason" rather than the loose form of the word in which anything you strongly hold to be true is a belief.

I suppose this could be a mere miscommunication of language between LadyTevar and myself, then. I was using the "religious" form of belief, not the broad general form of the word. Then again, using the broad general form of the word, there is nothing whatsoever negative about the term; "I breathe oxygen" is technically a belief if we use that form.

[Kuroneko]

In the context of a religious discussion, it is generally understood that the word "belief" is short-hand for "acceptance without evidence or reason" rather than the loose form of the word in which anything you strongly hold to be true is a belief.

Oh. My apologies.

I suppose this could be a mere miscommunication of language between LadyTevar and myself, then. I was using the "religious" form of belief, not the broad general form of the word.

Well, at least this was straightened out.

[BlkbrryTheGreat]

In the context of a religious discussion, it is generally understood that the word "belief" is short-hand for "acceptance without evidence or reason" rather than the loose form of the word in which anything you strongly hold to be true is a belief.

I suppose this could be a mere miscommunication of language between LadyTevar and myself, then. I was using the "religious" form of belief, not the broad general form of the word. Then again, using the broad general form of the word, there is nothing whatsoever negative about the term; "I breathe oxygen" is technically a belief if we use that form.

Even if this is the case it does not change the fact that beliefs either rely on the facts of reality or they do not. The belief "I breathe oxygen" is derived from reality and is perfectly reasonable. Belief in the divine nature of the Holy Bible is not. Regardless of which interpretation LadyTevar meant, the fact remains that she does not see a difference, in terms of respect to be alloted, between beliefs that are derived from reality and those that are not.

[Kuroneko]

Regardless of which interpretation LadyTevar meant, the fact remains that she does not see a difference, in terms of respect to be alloted, between beliefs that are derived from reality and those that are not.

Respect for social conventions does not correlate with reasonability. If you were meeting the Queen of England, you would be expected to restrain any urges to hug the Queen (some Prime Minsters and Presidents failed do so). There is no logical reason for this to be so now. It's simply "not done."

The fact remains is that you enrolled in a Christian school, and if you find yourself disagreeing with the rules, you should simply transfer. I don't see the issue being about actual praying here. It's about simply not being rude.

[Kuroneko]

Asking someone to tolerate an imposition and then trying to paint him as being no better than the demanding party if he refuses is ridiculous. If you walked into my house and I demanded that you bow to me for five minutes in deference, would you say "come now, is it so hard" or would you say "what an asshole"?

Of course. However, if I knew you may expect me to do so beforehand, I would simply not walk into your house. When enrolling in a Christian school, it is obvious they may expect me to observe certain rules regarding religion. If I failed to learn of those rules beforehand, the fault is mine. If I learned of them but refused to follow them while still attending the school, I'm the one who would be the asshole.

[Lagmonster]

Of course. However, if I knew you may expect me to do so beforehand, I would simply not walk into your house. When enrolling in a Christian school, it is obvious they may expect me to observe certain rules regarding religion. If I failed to learn of those rules beforehand, the fault is mine. If I learned of them but refused to follow them while still attending the school, I'm the one who would be the asshole.

Very few children actually have the ability to select their schools. There's a Catholic elementary school near my house that pulls 'em in at kindergarten, and then passes them off to the Catholic high school later on. Very few of the students that I knew at my school ever emigrated FROM the catholic schools, and I knew plenty of kids who attended said schools who were out and out atheists.

Essentially, does anyone believe that the original posters' parents would entertain his interest in switching to a non-Christian school? Would he want to, given the friends he would lose touch with? Not to mention the social stigma that comes from 'falling from grace' with the religious community.

He might know the rules, but he can hardly be faulted for having not been given a choice of disobeying them.

[Kuroneko]

Very few children actually have the ability to select their schools. There's a Catholic elementary school near my house that pulls 'em in at kindergarten, and then passes them off to the Catholic high school later on. Very few of the students that I knew at my school ever emigrated FROM the catholic schools, and I knew plenty of kids who attended said schools who were out and out atheists... Essentially, does anyone believe that the original posters' parents would entertain his interest in switching to a non-Christian school? ... He might know the rules, but he can hardly be faulted for having not been given a choice of disobeying them.

If you're an atheist, then don't pray. If he does not agree to follow the school rules (of which we don't see the requirement of actual praying), then the true disagreement is with his parents. I still don't see a reason to be rude to the school.

Would he want to, given the friends he would lose touch with?

Wishing to keep attending a school while rejecting its rules are simply contradictory agendas. He should make up his mind about which he wants more.

Not to mention the social stigma that comes from 'falling from grace' with the religious community.

If he's an atheist, he's already "fallen from grace." I hope that isn't his reason, because it would indicate that he's both a coward and a hypocrite. I have no sympathy for such persons.

[Darth Wong]

Wishing to keep attending a school while rejecting its rules are simply contradictory agendas. He should make up his mind about which he wants more.

It's not that simple. There are regions in the country which the only decent school is a Catholic one, and it is supported with taxpayer money. What do you do in this case? The government has committed an unconscionable crime against human rights by forcing this decision upon parents, and the schools are complicit in that crime by taking the money from a government whose charter of rights and freedoms they spit upon. Therefore, they have no leg to stand on and I encourage anyone and everyone to be as rude to those schools as they like.

[LadyTevar]

In the context of a religious discussion, it is generally understood that the word "belief" is short-hand for "acceptance without evidence or reason" rather than the loose form of the word in which anything you strongly hold to be true is a belief.

I suppose this could be a mere miscommunication of language between LadyTevar and myself, then. I was using the "religious" form of belief, not the broad general form of the word. Then again, using the broad general form of the word, there is nothing whatsoever negative about the term; "I breathe oxygen" is technically a belief if we use that form.

My Apologies, Wong. I was using the broad defination, not the religious.

Too bad your Alertnative viewpoint is that an Atheist should compromise his convictions to be polite and "respect the beliefs of others" by outwardly showing reverence towards something that is held in nothing but contempt by this person.

Once again you've fucking ignored what I already posted. The question is that of making a rational judgement and standing by it. Having respect for the unfounded, irrational, superstitious "beliefs" of others is nothing more then a cop-out; your either refusing to make a moral judgement or your too much of a coward to stand by it. A case can be made for not being outward about such a judgement- when there are substancial negative consequences, but when there are no consequences it is inexcusable. The term most people use to refer to such individuals is "spineless".

I would fully expect the same respect from a Christian, althugh they may give no more respect to me than you seem to be willing to give.

My choices are my own, and if I chose to play along with someone else's beliefs (broadest term), does that then make me "spineless" or "polite"?

LadyTevar wrote:
If you believed that you were royalty and deserved the respect? Yes I would humor you in that respect, and possibly snigger at you once I left.

How many times would you visit my house before you got fed up and refused to do it any more?

I don't know... is your hospitality enough to make up for it?

[Kuroneko]

There are regions in the country which the only decent school is a Catholic one, and it is supported with taxpayer money. What do you do in this case? The government has committed an unconscionable crime against human rights by forcing this decision upon parents, and the schools are complicit in that crime by taking the money from a government whose charter of rights and freedoms they spit upon. Therefore, they have no leg to stand on and I encourage anyone and everyone to be as rude to those schools as they like.

Agreed. In such cases, rudeness to ouright civil disobedience is more than justified; it is called for. But in the case of a (truly) private school, I would hold that the fault is on the parent and not the school. Family disagreements should be kept in the family.

I'm not certain which is the case here.

[jegs2]

Agreed. In such cases, rudeness to ouright civil disobedience is more than justified; it is called for. But in the case of a (truly) private school, I would hold that the fault is on the parent and not the school. Family disagreements should be kept in the family.

I'm not certain which is the case here.

I recommended earlier that the student in question approach his parents, make his disbelief in God known to them, and request that he be excused from religious activities within the school. The school may (and likely does) have its own set of requirements, so his parents may not be able to carry out his wish. That being the case, they should pull him from the Christian school and place him in a non-religious private school or a public school. If his parents deny him permission, my recommendation would be that he obey them and respect their authority until he is independent of them -- moving out as soon as he is of legal age.

[Durandal]

Wishing to keep attending a school while rejecting its rules are simply contradictory agendas. He should make up his mind about which he wants more.

Read my post. If he's anything like me, he doesn't really have a choice. His parents won't enroll him in a different school, and he can't make the decision until he's 18 and on the verge of graduating. And, I agree with Mike. Since these schools are now getting government money through vouchers and not respecting civil rights, they deserve every bit of rude and obnoxious treatment they get.