The alarming anti-Americanism in Europe

[Edi]

I have no problem with America being criticized for behaving unethically, what I do have a problem with is America being judged by a different, harsher standard, and people willing to impute baser motives to the United States than to repressive regimes around the world.

Your posts seem to indicate otherwise. You happen to labor under the misperception that people like myself and Arthur Tuxedo think repressive regimes around the world are somehow less deplorable than the US, when this is most emphatically not the case. The problem for you is, nobody is disputing the immorality of their actions. Hardly anybody in the West would argue that the regime of Saddam Hussein was repressive and evil. Same with Burma/Myanmar, Sudan, Libya and others. These nations, unlike the US, also don't make such a big deal about being the bastions of freedom and democracy as they go about their contemptable practices, and we don't have any apologists for them here. The US does similar things outside its own borders, and sorry, you're not going to be cut any slack in that regard, no matter how many whinges you post about it (because that is what almost all of your exchanges with AT and Darkling amounted to, tough shit). If your country is going to claim to be the leading light of freedom, democracy and morality in the world, then it will get verbally curb-stomped when its actions run blatantly counter to this claim. Deal with it. Not that I'm going to go any easier on anybody who starts arguing in favor of many of France's actions inside the EU, or other similar cases. Even my own government. I don't hand out special exceptions based on what worse things others have done in the past, or may do in the future, I'll blast them all quite equally.

I just wish we did get a Soviet apologist or two here, then you'd see what sort of stuff starts flying at people who really are hated. I've criticized American foreign policy often enough, and most of the time I've also been more or less cordial (if direct) about it, but I'd have no such reservations about flaming the shit out of someone who turned out to be a Soviet (or other communist) apologist.

Edi

[LordShaithis]

We gave him the weapons he needed to stay in power and expand. We created his regime as we know it today. Before we supported him, he couldn't have invaded Kuwait, couldn't have gassed Iranians and Kurds, couldn't have launched SCUDs at Israel.

Wow, so America makes SCUDs? And T-series tanks? And MiGs and Mirages?

Notice the strawman. I said that European nations had largely abandoned Machiavellian dog-eat-dog philosophies,

Bullshit, they've just lost their teeth is all.

The chances of being victimized by terrorism were significantly less than the chances of being hit by lightning. You're thousands of times more likely to die in a car crash. Now that Bush has thrown rocks at every hornets' nest in sight, the chance of future large-scale attacks has been increased exponentially, which leads me to re-iterate that Bush has put us all in danger.

What the hell do you base that on? During the supposedly peaceful 90's we had the first attack on the WTC, the attack on the USS Cole, the attacks on our embassies, and the planning phase of the 9/11 attack. We're way past the point of "provoking" them. They already hate us.

Even disregarding Bush and talking about US foreign policy in general, events like 9/11 are what happens when you follow Realpolitik, making deals with devils and playing dangerous men as pawns.

Pompous bullshit without a scrap of fact. 9/11 came while we were sitting on our collective asses, and was "provoked" by having troops in the "holy land" of Saudi Arabia with the permission of the host government.

No, it's not. But now a lot of the moderate muslims and non-muslims hate us too, and that is Bush's fault.

It's this sort of whiny bullshit that drives me toward the "This is WW4!" camp. Fuck the Muslims. Fuck their outrage. Fuck their jihad. Fuck all of it. I've really had enough of these ignorant shoeless assholes jumping up and down in the street burning American flags every two days. Nice job burning that little flag Abdul, now take your filthy ass back to it's hovel and hope we don't accidentally drop a JDAM on it.

Either way, you realize it's bullshit as soon as you remember that there are other Western countries that are just as wealthy as us, freer than us (Patriot Act means we're no longer the Land of the Free), more secular than us (less fundies), and yet none of them are the Great Satan. We are.

I'm past caring, personally. I've been watching these dipshits stand in the street and scream "Death to America!" for what seems like forever. Frankly, I'm starting to take it personal. They want a "holy" war? Fine. Let's see who wins.

[XPViking]

Arthur,

Agreed, but the whole point of setting forth some kind of criteria is that so a nation can be judged. Albeit I just whipped that sucker out in 5 minutes but it serves as a point of departure, correct?

XPViking

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

Let's get this out in the open first of all: I don't take kindly to trolls, which you have proven yourself to be.

We gave him the weapons he needed to stay in power and expand. We created his regime as we know it today. Before we supported him, he couldn't have invaded Kuwait, couldn't have gassed Iranians and Kurds, couldn't have launched SCUDs at Israel.

Wow, so America makes SCUDs? And T-series tanks? And MiGs and Mirages?

He wouldn't have still been in power by then without American help. The Iranians were kicking his ass.

Notice the strawman. I said that European nations had largely abandoned Machiavellian dog-eat-dog philosophies,

Bullshit, they've just lost their teeth is all.

You're an idiot. "They haven't abandoned the philosophy, just lost their teeth" would imply that they've been trying and failing to act like America.

The chances of being victimized by terrorism were significantly less than the chances of being hit by lightning. You're thousands of times more likely to die in a car crash. Now that Bush has thrown rocks at every hornets' nest in sight, the chance of future large-scale attacks has been increased exponentially, which leads me to re-iterate that Bush has put us all in danger.

What the hell do you base that on? During the supposedly peaceful 90's we had the first attack on the WTC, the attack on the USS Cole, the attacks on our embassies, and the planning phase of the 9/11 attack. We're way past the point of "provoking" them. They already hate us.

Infrequent and, with the exception of 9/11, low casualty and outside our borders. Like I said, you'd win the lotto and get hit by lightning the same day before you'd die by terrorism. Now that Bush has given people who already hated us a dozen more reasons to do so, it may become more of a real threat in the future. As for "What the hell do you base that on?" I could get some statistics for death by lightning vs. death by terrorism over the last 10 years, but I think we all know what they'll say.

Even disregarding Bush and talking about US foreign policy in general, events like 9/11 are what happens when you follow Realpolitik, making deals with devils and playing dangerous men as pawns.

Pompous bullshit without a scrap of fact. 9/11 came while we were sitting on our collective asses, and was "provoked" by having troops in the "holy land" of Saudi Arabia with the permission of the host government.

You're a moron. Without realpolitik, we wouldn't have had troops in Saudi Arabia, wouldn't have trained Osama to murder 3,000 of our citizens, and people like Osama would spend all their time blowing up government buildings in Saudi Arabia because the regimes aren't religious enough for their liking and not give two shits about the US (just like, despite the angry rhetoric, muslim fundies don't give two shits about any Western country other than the US).

No, it's not. But now a lot of the moderate muslims and non-muslims hate us too, and that is Bush's fault.

It's this sort of whiny bullshit that drives me toward the "This is WW4!" camp. Fuck the Muslims. Fuck their outrage. Fuck their jihad. Fuck all of it.

How about fuck you? Fuck your jingoism. Fuck the way you didn't deal with my point. Fuck your trolling ways.

I've really had enough of these ignorant shoeless assholes jumping up and down in the street burning American flags every two days. Nice job burning that little flag Abdul, now take your filthy ass back to it's hovel and hope we don't accidentally drop a JDAM on it.

Let me ammend my earlier statement: Realpolitik is responsible for probably half of the anti-US sentiment. People account for the remainder.

Either way, you realize it's bullshit as soon as you remember that there are other Western countries that are just as wealthy as us, freer than us (Patriot Act means we're no longer the Land of the Free), more secular than us (less fundies), and yet none of them are the Great Satan. We are.

I'm past caring, personally. I've been watching these dipshits stand in the street and scream "Death to America!" for what seems like forever. Frankly, I'm starting to take it personal. They want a "holy" war? Fine. Let's see who wins.

In other words, you're not interested in truth and facts. At least you're inadvertently honest.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

Curse the lack of an edit button.
"Let me ammend my earlier statement: Realpolitik is responsible for probably half of the anti-US sentiment. People account for the remainder. "

should have read

"Let me ammend my earlier statement: Realpolitik is responsible for probably half of the anti-US sentiment. People like you account for the remainder."

[LordShaithis]

If we had always played by your rules, we'd be living on Planet Russia by now.

[Edi]

Hardly anybody in the West would argue that the regime of Saddam Hussein was repressive and evil.

To fix the typo (emphasis added) in my previous post, that sentence in my previous post should have read:

"Hardly anybody in the West would argue that the regime of Saddam Hussein wasn't repressive and evil."

That is all.

Edi

[Oberleutnant]

5. Amount of arms sales (could be derived from “economic aid”)
Again, I'm just guessing here, but I don't think the US is nearly as bad in this regard as the Soviets were. After all, what rag tag army doesn't have AKs and RPGs?

Not neccessarily. AKs and similar Soviet-designed small arms weapons used in various places around the world are often either domestic-made (Iraq, Egypt), or piss poor quality Chinese-made copies. In addition to this - and now I'm guessing - it's easy to find Soviet/Russian stuff from the black market. This also goes for French and American military equipment, Soviet/Russian stuff.

In the recent years, however, USA has been clearly the leading arms exporter in the world. Is this immoral? In my opinion, no.

[Stuart Mackey]

Let's not forget China's takeover of Tibet, or its half-century long support of North Korea and it's hideous, oppressive regime, or it's support of North Vietnam, which followed up its victory in the war by killing political opponents of the communist regime in carload lots.

There's blame enough to go around where nations and their foreign policy is concerned.

The thing is that you expect that sort of thing from second world dictatorships not from first world democracies. America has activly sponcered this sort of thing just as well as anyone else.

You should expect it from any state. Nations act in what they see as their self interest, first, last, and always. Moral and ethical considerations are seldom allowed to override this. The Italian statesman Count Camillo Cavour once said "We shall astonish the world with our ingratitude", referring to Italy's acting against a nation that had recently rendered it aid. Charles DeGaulle once said, "The state is a cold monster". This may be machiavellian, but it's how nations have always acted. It is naive to expect otherwise.

I have no problem with America being criticized for behaving unethically, what I do have a problem with is America being judged by a different, harsher standard, and people willing to impute baser motives to the United States than to repressive regimes around the world.

I see, then I dont expect you to complain when it seems that other nations hate America?. Yours is a nation that has come out with some interesting phrases, Arsenal of Democracy is one. Yet if you behave like a dictatorship expect to be reviled like one, and more so if you make hypocrites of yourselfs.
That nations can behave in a deplorable manner does not mean that they should, esp when in doing so they create the very situations that lead them in conflicts of various kinds.

[Stuart Mackey]

Not to psychoanalyze Perinquus, but let's have a look at apologist mentality for a second. In his mind, because the US is neither the most prolific nor the heinous practioner of wrongdoing in recent memory, that means that complaints about our behavior should be discarded

God almighty. No matter how many times I say the U.S. deserves to be criticized for its misdeeds, you just do not hear it. It's like I am speaking Chinese or something. For what feels like the fifty billionth time: I do not think criticism of the U.S. should be discarded, merely viewed in the same light as any other country.

The US and other democratic nations cannot be held in the same light as other nations for the simple reason of the values we expouse.
If we use your reasoning then a policeman can be judged in the same light as a criminal because he is human, the same as the rest of us.
The police are held by the public to be of a higher standard, because they enforce the law, and when they break it they are thus held in the lowest of contempt.

[Edi]

Ouch, Stuart, that's going to sting, because Perinquus happens to be a police officer himself. Ah, the irony...

Edi

[Stuart Mackey]

Ouch, Stuart, that's going to sting, because Perinquus happens to be a police officer himself. Ah, the irony...

Edi

I know..which is why I wrote it , and because it is true.
Also, remember, I am from ASVS, a News group not known for warm fuzzies.

[Edi]

I know..which is why I wrote it , and because it is true.
Also, remember, I am from ASVS, a News group not known for warm fuzzies.

I wasn't sure you did, though I suspected. I'm also quite well aware of your ASVS roots and what that entails. I'm not known to pull punches either, as you might have noticed.

Edi

[Perinquus]

I just got home from work, and I need to get some sleep, so I don't have room to address all of this yet, but here are a couple of points outstanding enough that I had to refute before I turn in:

I've heard this argument before. They hate us for our freedoms, they're jealous because we have choice and democracry and because we're secular heathens. Either that or the more subtle variation: They hate the West because it's part of their culture and they can't let go of history. Either way, you realize it's bullshit as soon as you remember that there are other Western countries that are just as wealthy as us, freer than us (Patriot Act means we're no longer the Land of the Free), more secular than us (less fundies), and yet none of them are the Great Satan. We are. Your theory does not fit the facts.

Like hell it doesn't. Are you forgetting all the other non-American targets they attack. How about that bombing in Bali? That wasn't American, nor were many, if any, of the victims American. Those were mainly Australians. It was enough for Al Quaeda that they were Westerners (culturally speaking), and non-Muslim. How about all the Israelis that keep getting blown up by suicide bombers? You do remember that there was a time when Americans felt that terrorist attacks were things that happened overseas right? The Islamic terrorists have always been willing to attack other Western targets. We are the "Great Satan" because we are the biggest. Do not fool yourself into thinking that the rest of the Western world is immune to fanatical Islamic hatred. And I repeat the words of Hezbollah's Hussein Massawi: ''We are not fighting so that you will offer us something. We are fighting to eliminate you.''

I mean, what more is there to say? There you have it from the lips of one of the most prominent Islamic terrorists himself: it's not about our foreign policy, or humanitarian aid, or any particular issue; they are not making any negotiable demands; they just hate us and want to destroy us. I don't know why you find that so hard to understand or believe, especially when they admit it themselves.

As Eric Hoffer said:

Free men are aware of the imperfection inherent in human affairs, and they are willing to fight and die for that which is not perfect. They know that basic human problems can have no final solutions, that our freedom, justice, equality, etc. are far from absolute, and that the good life is compounded of half measures, compromises, lesser evils, and gropings toward the perfect. The rejection of approximations and the insistence on absolutes are the manifestation of a nihilism that loathes freedom, tolerance, and equity.

That's ridiculous. There is nothing relative about right, wrong, freedom, and justice. And why is it patriotic to fight and die for an imperfect system, but not to question and seek to improve it?

It's not ridiculous. It's realistic. This is a quote from a man who understands that human beings and human institutions are not perfect, nor can they be made so. That's just a fact, and you have to deal with it. That's not to say that you don't always try to make things better, but always, your idealism must be tempered with practical good sense, and a realistic understanding of your limitations and imperfections. That's why it's patriotic to defend something that is imperfect (and I never, ever suggested one should not seek to improve it).

There is an old saying: "don't let best be the enemy of good". Given human limitations and human imperfections, you often have to settle for things that are less than perfect - because perfection is not achievable by us. If you insist on perfection, and will not accept anything less, you are on the road to becoming an intolerant fanatic, arrogantly certain his vision is the right one, and all others are misguided, or worse.

[Perinquus]

The US and other democratic nations cannot be held in the same light as other nations for the simple reason of the values we expouse.
If we use your reasoning then a policeman can be judged in the same light as a criminal because he is human, the same as the rest of us.
The police are held by the public to be of a higher standard, because they enforce the law, and when they break it they are thus held in the lowest of contempt.

You do realize that that same argument can be used to excuse or rationalize atrocious behavior in others?

"Well, so what if communist countries exterminate people by the millions? They are only communists after all; what else can you expect of them?

[Stuart Mackey]

I know..which is why I wrote it , and because it is true.
Also, remember, I am from ASVS, a News group not known for warm fuzzies.

I wasn't sure you did, though I suspected. I'm also quite well aware of your ASVS roots and what that entails. I'm not known to pull punches either, as you might have noticed.

Edi

*Sigh*
Indeed I have noticed this with much amusement

[Edi]

You do realize that that same argument can be used to excuse or rationalize atrocious behavior in others?

"Well, so what if communist countries exterminate people by the millions? They are only communists after all; what else can you expect of them?

Not quite. It is perfectly legitimate to expect common decency from most people you encounter, and there is no reason to excuse atrocious behavior. But if and when somebody sets themselves up as a rolemodel and paragon of virtue, then it is not at all unreasonable to set a higher standard for them. This is exactly what I have heard many police officers and military men say, how they must set an example of good behavior so that they do not dishonor their service and blacken its name, because it just does not do to devalue what they do. Like you, I have been in the milítary. My best friend is an officer, and my second best friend is a reserve officer, and they both agree with this, that good standards of behavior are to be expected of those in such positions. It's also what my father always drilled into me. It's also what soldiers expect from their commanders. Those who would lead, they are held to a higher standard. That's a fact of life.

The US would lead, but why is it not willing to bear the attendant burden?

Edi

[Stuart Mackey]

The US and other democratic nations cannot be held in the same light as other nations for the simple reason of the values we expouse.
If we use your reasoning then a policeman can be judged in the same light as a criminal because he is human, the same as the rest of us.
The police are held by the public to be of a higher standard, because they enforce the law, and when they break it they are thus held in the lowest of contempt.

You do realize that that same argument can be used to excuse or rationalize atrocious behavior in others?

"Well, so what if communist countries exterminate people by the millions? They are only communists after all; what else can you expect of them?

Red herring: This is not about the known failings of communist nations but the reasoning behind nations dislike of America. Besides, we do expect this failing in communist nations but not in democracies, which is the entire point!

[Perinquus]

The US and other democratic nations cannot be held in the same light as other nations for the simple reason of the values we expouse.
If we use your reasoning then a policeman can be judged in the same light as a criminal because he is human, the same as the rest of us.
The police are held by the public to be of a higher standard, because they enforce the law, and when they break it they are thus held in the lowest of contempt.

You do realize that that same argument can be used to excuse or rationalize atrocious behavior in others?

"Well, so what if communist countries exterminate people by the millions? They are only communists after all; what else can you expect of them?

Red herring: This is not about the known failings of communist nations but the reasoning behind nations dislike of America. Besides, we do expect this failing in communist nations but not in democracies, which is the entire point!

It's not a red herring. You raised this argument. I am a firm believer in applying the same standard across the board. I expect officers and citizens to be equally honest. When they are not, I may be a bit more disappointed in the officer, but I am not prepared to excuse of forgive the regular citizen anymore than I am a corrupt cop. Fiat iustitia ruat caeli. Let justice be done though the heavens fall. I am a great believer in standards of integrity and justice being applied impartially.

By the same token, whether we expect this failing in communist nations or not is beside the point. What's wrong is wrong, no matter who is responsible. I am not prepared to excuse communist nations from acting like barbarians because they are not expected to behave any better. Again, I may be more disappointed in the errant democracy than the errant communist state, but in terms of moral accountability, I would hold them equally at fault.

[Stuart Mackey]

It's not a red herring. You raised this argument.

The alarming anti-Americanism in Europe

Here's an interesting bit of information from a recent poll:

A nine-nation survey commissioned last month by the prestigious Pew Global Attitudes Project (see their website here: http://people-press.org/) found a disturbing animosity toward the United State in every major European country except Great Britain. For example, people in Germany held an "unfavorable" opinion of the United States by a margin of 71-25 percent. In France, unfavorables beat favorables by a margin of 67-31 percent. In Italy it was 59-34 percent, in Spain 74-14 percent.

You were saying?
It is a red herring. The entire thread is about America and why it cops so much flack

I am a firm believer in applying the same standard across the board. I expect officers and citizens to be equally honest. When they are not, I may be a bit more disappointed in the officer, but I am not prepared to excuse of forgive the regular citizen anymore than I am a corrupt cop. Fiat iustitia ruat caeli. Let justice be done though the heavens fall. I am a great believer in standards of integrity and justice being applied impartially.

By the same token, whether we expect this failing in communist nations or not is beside the point. What's wrong is wrong, no matter who is responsible. I am not prepared to excuse communist nations from acting like barbarians because they are not expected to behave any better. Again, I may be more disappointed in the errant democracy than the errant communist state, but in terms of moral accountability, I would hold them equally at fault.

That may be your opinion, but in my nation police are expected to be better than the average person or they loose the trust and confidence of the public. You expect me to obey the law when you the police violate it? I seem to remember an old army saying about officers
"do not ask the men to do something that you are not prepared to do yourself".
No one is prepared to excuse a communist nation its failings, but we do expect it because that is the nature of such governments, but if you act like it while claiming to be 'the arsenal of democracy' expect a few nasty comments.
So next time the world critisices your nation for acting like offal, take alook at your values and how they apply to your actions.

[Stuart Mackey]

You expect me to obey the law when you the police violate it?

damn the lack of a edit button, I did not, of course mean you but rather

"...obey the law when the police violate it"

sorry if I conveyed the wrong meaning here.

[Perinquus]

You were saying?
It is a red herring. The entire thread is about America and why it cops so much flack

Why on earth are you sneering "red hering" at me for answering an argument that you raised? If you weren't prepared to deal with that argument, then the proper thing to do is not to have brought it up.

That may be your opinion, but in my nation police are expected to be better than the average person or they loose the trust and confidence of the public. You expect me to obey the law when you the police violate it? I seem to remember an old army saying about officers
"do not ask the men to do something that you are not prepared to do yourself".

I don't ask anyone to do what I'm not willing to do myself. I expect everyone to be as honest as I am. I don't believe in double standards, higher or otherwise. Breaking the law is breaking the law, whether you're a cop or not.

No one is prepared to excuse a communist nation its failings, but we do expect it because that is the nature of such governments, but if you act like it while claiming to be 'the arsenal of democracy' expect a few nasty comments.

If we act like it? Excuse me, but when have we ever sunk to the level of the communist countries. Where are our Gulags? Where is our Berlin wall? Where are our secret police? When have we sent our tanks rolling into our neighboring countries to put down political movements? When did we have our purges?

So next time the world critisices your nation for acting like offal, take alook at your values and how they apply to your actions.

I don't mind taking flak for actual offenses we commit, like selling the Kurds down the river like we did in '91 for example. But I'm tired of hearing self righteous condemnation from the likes of France and Germany, who are quite content to sell dangerous technologies, or send money to a regime like Saddam Hussein's, and then turn around and try to paint us as the big villains when they're just as hip deep in shit as we are.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

If we had always played by your rules, we'd be living on Planet Russia by now.

That doesn't even make any sense. Are you really that stupid?

[Stravo]

If we had always played by your rules, we'd be living on Planet Russia by now.

That doesn't even make any sense. Are you really that stupid?

Actually...yes, yes he is that stupid.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

I just got home from work, and I need to get some sleep, so I don't have room to address all of this yet, but here are a couple of points outstanding enough that I had to refute before I turn in:

I've heard this argument before. They hate us for our freedoms, they're jealous because we have choice and democracry and because we're secular heathens. Either that or the more subtle variation: They hate the West because it's part of their culture and they can't let go of history. Either way, you realize it's bullshit as soon as you remember that there are other Western countries that are just as wealthy as us, freer than us (Patriot Act means we're no longer the Land of the Free), more secular than us (less fundies), and yet none of them are the Great Satan. We are. Your theory does not fit the facts.

Like hell it doesn't. Are you forgetting all the other non-American targets they attack. How about that bombing in Bali? That wasn't American, nor were many, if any, of the victims American. Those were mainly Australians. It was enough for Al Quaeda that they were Westerners (culturally speaking), and non-Muslim. How about all the Israelis that keep getting blown up by suicide bombers? You do remember that there was a time when Americans felt that terrorist attacks were things that happened overseas right? The Islamic terrorists have always been willing to attack other Western targets.

I didn't mean to imply that there were no terrorist attacks against non-US, non-Israeli targets, just not many. There are also a few military attacks by non-US, non-Israeli Western here and there on Islamic countries.

We are the "Great Satan" because we are the biggest. Do not fool yourself into thinking that the rest of the Western world is immune to fanatical Islamic hatred. And I repeat the words of Hezbollah's Hussein Massawi: ''We are not fighting so that you will offer us something. We are fighting to eliminate you.''

I mean, what more is there to say? There you have it from the lips of one of the most prominent Islamic terrorists himself: it's not about our foreign policy, or humanitarian aid, or any particular issue; they are not making any negotiable demands; they just hate us and want to destroy us. I don't know why you find that so hard to understand or believe, especially when they admit it themselves.

Excuse me for taking the words of fundamentalist idiots with a grain of salt. It's their actions that count, and their interest in conducting terrorist attacks against nations is pretty proportional to that nation's involvement in wronging (they feel) their countries of their people. Israel conducts the most military and economic operations against muslims, and not surprisingly they are the biggest terrorist target. The US conducts a significant number but substantially less, so we suffer substantially less terrorist attacks. Countries like the UK and Australia conduct operations very occasionally, and they get attacked very occasionally. There's a pattern here that you're ignoring in favor of the fevered, angry words of an irrational fundamentalist.

That's ridiculous. There is nothing relative about right, wrong, freedom, and justice. And why is it patriotic to fight and die for an imperfect system, but not to question and seek to improve it?

It's not ridiculous. It's realistic. This is a quote from a man who understands that human beings and human institutions are not perfect, nor can they be made so. That's just a fact, and you have to deal with it.[/quote]
I don't deal with it by throwing up my hands and not striving for perfection because it's impossible, even though things are bettered in the journey.

That's not to say that you don't always try to make things better, but always, your idealism must be tempered with practical good sense, and a realistic understanding of your limitations and imperfections. That's why it's patriotic to defend something that is imperfect (and I never, ever suggested one should not seek to improve it).

Your flowery rhetoric does not jibe with your resistance to the idea that the US's conduct is in need of overhaul.

There is an old saying: "don't let best be the enemy of good". Given human limitations and human imperfections, you often have to settle for things that are less than perfect - because perfection is not achievable by us.

You're de-railing this into a debate about the attainability of perfection, can I take that as a concession that the US foreign policy sucks?

If you insist on perfection, and will not accept anything less, you are on the road to becoming an intolerant fanatic, arrogantly certain his vision is the right one, and all others are misguided, or worse.

Slippery slope. If you're not satisfied with imperfection, then you always seek to improve where improvements can be made. This should be the default state of all human beings, and it's ludicrous to suggest that this mindset puts one on the road to becoming an intolerant fanatic. Just the opposite, in fact, a fanatic arises out of a person taught not to question, not to change.