Pim Fortuyn's Killer Gets a Wrist-Slap

[Joe]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international ... 86,00.html

Now I don't know much about Fortuyn, but killing a well-known, respected public official only gets you EIGHTEEN months? Good lord...

[Joe]

Eighteen years, excuse me.

[RedImperator]

Amazing. Utterly fucking amazing. Imagine what would have happened had a right-winger killed a prominent Muslim politician.

[Edi]

You fail to understand the differences between European and American justice systems. 18 years is, for a non-life sentence, extremely harsh by European standards. Criminal policy over here (broadly speaking, since each country has its own, though they are similar) and in America are radically different in outlook and to an extent also in methods, the reason for that being the goals are different. Punishment, yes, of course, since it is rather mandatory, but it is not the only objective by far. There is also the pesky little thing like rule of law that requires justice systems to judge according to the laws (unless a law is challenged as unconstitutional, but that's not the case here), and they can't go beyond those.

If you want more insights into how things work in Europe (or at least in Finland), see here. That link points to the first relevant post in that thread. As I understand it, things are rather similar in the Netherlands.

Edi

That said, he should have been convicted of 1st degree murder (premeditated etc) and sentenced to life in prison.

[The_Nice_Guy]

That said, he should have been convicted of 1st degree murder (premeditated etc) and sentenced to life in prison.

In other words, he still got off light. If it had been a right-winger killing a prominent Muslim politician, then the full sentence would have been used.

Is that a double standard that I see in the justice system of the Netherlands?

The Nice Guy

[Edi]

What's your basis for that claim, Nice Guy? I'd like to know. Sure, it might have caused a big outcry, but Fortuyn's murder was big enough news here in Europe, bigger than you seem to think.

Edi

[Oberleutnant]

Indeed. Unlike what you might think, political assasinations are very rare in Europe Union, and this was the first one in Netherlands for 300 years. Even those Dutchmen who opposed Fortuyn's ideas were truly apalled by what happened, and demanded a heavy sentence for the killer - exactly what he got by European standards.

[Beowulf]

I think there might be a slight difference between what Americans think of as a heavy sentence, and what Europeans think...

[The_Nice_Guy]

What's your basis for that claim, Nice Guy? I'd like to know. Sure, it might have caused a big outcry, but Fortuyn's murder was big enough news here in Europe, bigger than you seem to think.

Edi

Like I said, turn it the other way, and speculate on what the sentence might have been, in the same country. Heavier, lighter, or the same?

If it would be the same, then there's nothing wrong. However, if there is every indication that a right wing organized assassination crime(let's just call it 1st degree murder) would receive a heavier sentence by virtue of it being more of a hate crime, then yes, there is something fundamentally wrong.

Because what that implies is that some crimes are more 'acceptable' than others, simply because they fit in with the sentiments of the times, and might serve as unspoken mediating factors.

And I'm sure there're murder cases of rabid right wingers(neo-nazis, anyone?) attacking minority folks. Maybe a comparison here might help, even though the victims are different in that Pim was a politician.

The Nice Guy

[Hamel]

Amazing. Utterly fucking amazing. Imagine what would have happened had a right-winger killed a prominent Muslim politician.

The US woud've given him political asylum, a huge monetary reward, and Haliburton stocks

[Colonel Olrik]

What's your basis for that claim, Nice Guy? I'd like to know. Sure, it might have caused a big outcry, but Fortuyn's murder was big enough news here in Europe, bigger than you seem to think.

Edi

Like I said, turn it the other way, and speculate on what the sentence might have been, in the same country. Heavier, lighter, or the same?

As Edi and Oberleutnant have said, the sentences in the E.U are different than those of the U.S. In a similar crime a right wing nuts killing a communist would get the exact same sentence. Now, racial crimes are seen in a harsh light in the E.U, possibly more than that in the U.S. The Nazi parties are outlawed, as well as hate language. So, yes, if a crime is proven to be racial it will probably have a heavier sentence, as it counts as an agravating factor.

This crime was not racial.

Secondly, the sentence was not light, according to many countries in the E.U. As I've said before, in Portugal you can't get more than 25 years, no matter how many children you hit while on a killing spree. It's written in the Constitution.

[The_Nice_Guy]

In a similar crime a right wing nuts killing a communist would get the exact same sentence.

I see. At least they're consistent, though I would prefer heavier sentences across the board myself.

But that's another issue.

The Nice guy

[NecronLord]

I'd like to say I care, but frankly, the more you know about Mr Fortuyn the more you think he deserved it.

The man wasn't a right winger as in republican/constervative, he was a rightwinger as in fascist who used millitristic practices in his political rallies.



"Professor Pim, as he liked to be called, shocked the Dutch establishment in February with a call for the repeal of the first article of the constitution which forbids discrimination. " BBC http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1971462.stm

Frankly, I find it difficult to be concerned over the fate of a Neo-Nazi.

[Joe]

Ah, another Nazi comparison, vastly overblown as usual.

He doesn't bother me. It's clear that this guy didn't have it out for any race (hell, he's gay and he BRAGGED about having screwed men of many different races), only for Islam. He considered it a threat to the cultural diversity and religious tolerance of Holland. His solutions weren't the best, but his heart was in the right place.

[MKSheppard]

Hey cool, Remind me, if I kill someone, to go to an European country
and get a slap on the wrist sentence

Especially Sweeden! Thanks to their policies, I can have a freaking
LAPTOP COMPUTER in my cell!

http://www.washtimes.com/world/20030413-69476576.htm

Prisons increase security measures

Karl Ritter
ASSOCIATED PRESS Published April 13, 2003

NORRTAELJE, Sweden — The razor-edged concertina wire sparkling in the faint winter sun bears witness to a harsher climate at Norrtaelje prison.

A decade ago, the fence wasn't needed, even at this high-security brick compound holding convicted murderers and rapists. But a string of escapes and uprisings among the 200 inmates in the mid-1990s resulted in extra security inside the 9-foot-high prison wall, and a riot squad is kept on 24-hour alert.

"Before '95-'96, there were seldom fights between inmates," said Deputy Warden Anders Ekstroem. "Since then, there have been a lot of trips to the hospital."

It's a distasteful turn for Sweden, which like the other Nordic nations, has long championed a humane approach to dealing with criminals. Problems are also increasing elsewhere in the region.

In Denmark, Jens Tolstrup — warden of Nyborg prison, 90 miles west of Copenhagen — said Danes used to believe that "all types of prisoners could be in all types of prisons." Now Danish prisons have special units for the most dangerous.

Swedish prison officials blame the worsening conditions on gangs, drugs, an influx of foreigners and a harder attitude among criminals.

Still, few Swedes question the system's focus on rehabilitation rather than punishment, although some say the rise in violence shows that the approach is too soft.

"One shouldn't praise a model to the heavens because it looks good on paper," said Beatrice Ask, a lawmaker from Sweden's conservative Moderate Party. "We have way too many people who relapse into crime, way too many who don't get the correctional treatment they need, and we have a few who aren't punished who should be punished."

Defenders of the system counter that the crime rate remains relatively low and that problems inside the prisons are minor compared with those in the United States and many other Western countries.

"We're not going to have American conditions in our prisons," Justice Minister Thomas Bodstroem said. He conceded, however, that Swedish prisons have had to adjust to a "different clientele," isolating the most violent offenders and restricting unsupervised leaves.

Officials say prison killings were unheard of until 1993, when an inmate was killed at a maximum-security lockup. Since then, five more inmates have been slain by other prisoners, and one died during an escape attempt.

Prison staff aren't armed, and none has been killed by an inmate, but violence or threats of violence against them and their families are more frequent, union officials say.

"Before, there were certain boundaries that weren't crossed," said Roal Nilssen, ombudsman for prison staff at the union for state employees, SEKO. Much violence stems from gang rivalry, officials say. In the 1990s, motorcycle gangs such as the Hell's Angels or the Bandidos carried on their turf wars behind bars.

Andrew Coyle, director of the International Center for Prison Studies at King's College in London, said that despite the rise in violence, the Nordic approach should be a model for the world.

"They take the view that locking up the citizens of a country is something to be avoided," he said. "It's not a question of being soft on criminals. It's a question of what is best for society."

Incarceration rates in Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland and Iceland range from 30 to 60 per 100,000 people. The average for Western Europe as a whole is 90. In the United States, it's more than 700.

In the Nordic countries, people convicted of less-serious crimes, such as theft or drunken driving, are typically released with electronic monitoring bracelets or given community service.

The most serious sentence is life in prison, which in reality means 10 to 15 years. Like the rest of Western Europe, the Nordic countries do not have the death penalty.

In prison, inmates are offered psychological counseling, anti-aggression workshops and drug rehabilitation along with high school and college courses, and factory work. Regardless of their program, inmates receive a small daily allowance, part of which is set aside for periodic leaves.

Mikael, a convicted rapist who declined to give his last name, said he works for 13 kroner ($1.50) an hour in the Norrtaelje prison furniture factory.

"If you want to get back on your feet, then this system works," he said, before entering his 110- square-foot cell equipped with a television, laptop computer, stereo and fan.

"As long as you're going to release someone from prison, then it's important that he comes out the best possible person. If everyone were sentenced to life, a hole in the ground would be enough."

[Oberleutnant]

The most serious sentence is life in prison, which in reality means 10 to 15 years. Like the rest of Western Europe, the Nordic countries do not have the death penalty.

Way to Washington Times! Professionalism at its best!

[Oberleutnant]

Upon rereading that bit, I have to come to the conclusion that never post while under influence of alcohol.

I read it: "Unlike the rest of Western Europe, the Nordic countries do not have the death penalty."

Way to go Oberleutnant! Idiocy at its best!

[MKSheppard]

Way to go Oberleutnant! Idiocy at its best!

And you didn't even notice the attribution:

Karl Ritter
ASSOCIATED PRESS Published April 13, 2003

Lay off the booze before posting in politics

[Lord Sander]

Now I don't know much about Fortuyn, but killing a well-known, respected public official only gets you EIGHTEEN <years>? Good lord...

Single murders do not get life sentences (highest punishment possible in the Netherlands).

In other words, he still got off light. If it had been a right-winger killing a prominent Muslim politician, then the full sentence would have been used.

Not here it wouldn't.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Frankly, I find it difficult to be concerned over the fate of a Neo-Nazi.

Hardly. The man was little more than a Rockefeller Republican by U.S. standards, and your hatred of him shows the level of leftist fear and hatred of him in Europe for his genius, and his recognition of the problem that is facing Europe. I suspect that were I to search for an english version of the first article of the Dutch constitution, I'd find a highly restrictive and devisively worded jumble of lawyerspeak that makes citizens of the Netherlands prisons in their own nation out of fear of offending anyone who declares themselves "different", or comes from a foreign land and proceeds to abuse the hospitality of the nation.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Oh, I am curious - In most European countries, do felons lose their civil rights, or retain them? In the U.S.A. all felons lose their civil rights when convicted, though some can petition a judge to have them reinstated after they've served out their sentences.

[Joe]

Frankly, I find it difficult to be concerned over the fate of a Neo-Nazi.

Hardly. The man was little more than a Rockefeller Republican by U.S. standards, and your hatred of him shows the level of leftist fear and hatred of him in Europe for his genius, and his recognition of the problem that is facing Europe. I suspect that were I to search for an english version of the first article of the Dutch constitution, I'd find a highly restrictive and devisively worded jumble of lawyerspeak that makes citizens of the Netherlands prisons in their own nation out of fear of offending anyone who declares themselves "different", or comes from a foreign land and proceeds to abuse the hospitality of the nation.

That's what was great about Fortuyn; he knew how to talk about such matters without being a racist asshole a la le Pen, and his sexual promiscuity with men of different races made him an even more difficult target for the knee-jerkers.

[The_Nice_Guy]

It's a bit strange. For example, there was an interview in which Pim flaunted his sexual orientation in front of a muslim cleric.

Predictably, the cleric blew up, which made Pim's point that Islam, or at least a portion of it, was intolerant of other beliefs and culture, not to mention sexual mores.

So how far does tolerance go? Can, or should a multicultural society accept an intolerant one bent on imposing its own values and biases onto the greater whole?

Was Pim defending the multiculturism of the Netherlands, or attacking it? In fact, was Islam with its various practices imposing itself upon the Netherlands?

The Nice Guy

[Dahak]

Oh, I am curious - In most European countries, do felons lose their civil rights, or retain them? In the U.S.A. all felons lose their civil rights when convicted, though some can petition a judge to have them reinstated after they've served out their sentences.

I'm no lawyer, but I don't ever heard of German fellons losing their civil rights. It wouldn't go very well with our constitution...

[Lord Sander]

Hardly. The man was little more than a Rockefeller Republican by U.S. standards, and your hatred of him shows the level of leftist fear and hatred of him in Europe for his genius, and his recognition of the problem that is facing Europe. I suspect that were I to search for an english version of the first article of the Dutch constitution,

Article 1 [Equality]
All persons in the Netherlands shall be treated equally in equal circumstances. Discrimination on the grounds of religion, belief, political opinion, race, or sex or on any other grounds whatsoever shall not be permitted.
http://www.oefre.unibe.ch/law/icl/nl00000_.html

I'd find a highly restrictive and devisively worded jumble of lawyerspeak that makes citizens of the Netherlands prisons in their own nation out of fear of offending anyone who declares themselves "different",

Not ordinary citizens, just the politicians. And that only out of fear of losing votes.

or comes from a foreign land and proceeds to abuse the hospitality of the nation.

No one here fears offending those.

Do not confuse the Netherlands with America, people do NOT get sued for being offending.