Why the MidEast is such a pain in the ass.

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Why the MidEast is such a pain in the ass.

Post by Coyote »

An interesting article has been brough to my attention, an article written before the Iraq War, explaining why there are so many problems in the Middle East (among other regions). I'll post a link to the article it the end of this excerpt (the entire article is fairly long, be warned) but here, I think, is a summary of one of the more important points...
Lee Harris wrote: Our World-Historical Gamble
By Lee Harris 03/11/2003

All previous threats in the history of mankind have had one element in common. They were posed by historical groups that had created by their own activity and with their own hands the weapons - both physical and cultural - that they used to threaten their enemies.

In each case, the power that the historical group had at its disposal had been "earned" by them the hard way: they had invented and forged their instruments; they had disciplined and trained their own armies; they had created the social and economic structures that allowed the construction of their armies and navies; they had paid their own way.

In each of these cases, to use Marx's language, the society in question had achieved through their own labor and sacrifice the objective conditions of their military power. Their power to threaten others derived entirely from their own skill and genius.

This, of course, is not to deny an amount of borrowing from earlier cultures, but in each case this borrowing was only the foundation upon which the affiliated culture proceeded to build its own unique structure, as evidenced, for example, by Japan's stunningly successful response to the Western challenge at the end of the nineteenth century - another vivid example of how a sense of the realistic can transcend cultural boundaries.

But the threat that currently faces us is radically different. It comes from groups who have utterly failed to create the material and objective conditions within their own societies sufficient to permit them to construct, out of their own resources, the kind of military organization and weaponry that has constituted every previous kind of threat.

In the case of Al Qaeda, this is painfully evident, as V.S. Naipaul has observed: the only technical mastery displayed by the terrorists of 9/11 was the ability to hijack and to fly Jumbo airliners into extremely large buildings, neither of which they were capable of constructing themselves.

But the same is true in the case of Saddam Hussein's Iraq: the money that funded both the creation of his conventional forces as well as his forays into devising weapons of mass destruction came not from the efforts of the Iraqi people, but from money paid by the West for the purchase of petroleum - natural resources that Iraq had done absolutely nothing to create or even to produce for sale.

Why does this matter? The answer to this question has been provided by Hegel in his Master/Slave dialectic in The Phenomenology of Spirit, and was subsequently taken up as a fundamental theme of Marx's own thinking.

When people are forced to create their own material world through their own labor, they are certainly not setting out to achieve a greater insight into the nature of reality - they are merely trying to feed themselves, and to provide their children with clothing and a roof over their heads. And yet, whether they will or no, they are also, at every step of the way, acquiring a keener grasp of the objective nature of world.

A man who wishes to build his own home with his own hands must come to grips with the recalcitrant properties of wood and gravity: he must learn to discipline his own activities so that he is in fact able to achieve his end. He will come to see that certain things work and that others don't. He will realize that in order to have A, you must first make sure of B. He will be forced to develop a sense of the realistic - and this, once again, is a cultural constant, measured entirely by the ability of each particular culture to cope successfully with the specific challenge posed by the world it inhabits.

But all of this is lost on the man who simply pays another man to build his home for him. He is free to imagine his dream house, and to indulge in every kind of fantasy. The proper nature of the material need not concern him - gravity doesn't interest him. He makes the plans out of his head and expects them to be fulfilled at his whim.

If we look at the source of the Arab wealth we find it is nothing they created for themselves. It has come to them by magic, much like a story of the Arabian nights, and it allows them to live in a feudal fantasyland.

What Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein have in common is that they became rich because the West paid them for natural resources that the West could simply have taken from them at will, and without so much as a Thank You, if the West had been inclined to do so. They were, by one of the bitter paradoxes of history, the pre-eminent beneficiaries of the Western liberalism that they have pledged themselves to destroy.

Their power derives entirely from the fact that the West had committed itself, in the aftermath of World War II, to a policy of not robbing other societies of their natural resources simply because it possessed the military might to do so - nor does it matter whether the West followed this policy out of charitable instinct, or out of prudence, or out of a cynical awareness that it was more cost effective to do so.

All that really matters is the quite unintended consequence of the West's conduct: the prodigious funding of fantasists who are thereby enabled to pursue their demented agendas unencumbered by any realistic calculation of the risks or costs of their action.
I found it to be rather insightful....here is the whole article, if you wish...

http://www.techcentralstation.com/1051/ ... 51-031103A
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

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Post by Darth Wong »

The Arabs didn't really earn their money, therefore they're terrorists? This guy is a fucking moron selling false cause fallacies.

Tell me, did the guy running the US government earn his money? Or did he inherit it from Rich Daddy?
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Post by Stormbringer »

I think it's a remarkably sensible article. The Middle East is essentially a Dark Ages culture that got dragged into the modern era. There in lies the problem, they have all the goodies of the mordern age yet have gained none of the cultural maturity that usually comes with it.
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Post by Coyote »

I don't think he's saying that they're terrorists because they didn't earn their money.... more like they achieved a great deal of money and power without having to learn the disciplines required to earn it. It is a Marxist argument, actually.

Remember the scene in Jurassic Park where Iam Malcolm lectures the old guy that came up with the idea of cloned dinosaurs for amusement parks? He said something like, "You have this technology but didn't earn it; you did not acquire the discipline to wield it correctly. You wield this technology like a child who's found his father's gun".

I think that is the point being made here-- people who had everything given to them, without requiring hard work and discipline in that achievement, never have fantasies or illusions shattered by reality and necessity. They wield their wealth irresponsebly.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
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Post by RedImperator »

Darth Wong wrote:The Arabs didn't really earn their money, therefore they're terrorists? This guy is a fucking moron selling false cause fallacies.

Tell me, did the guy running the US government earn his money? Or did he inherit it from Rich Daddy?
That wasn't what he argued at all. He's saying the Arab states got fantastically wealthy without having to earn it--a gift from Allah, if you will, and thus didn't gain an understanding of how the modern world works. As opposed to Japan, which pulled itself up by its own bootstraps and, had it not been for one dreadful miscalculation, would easily have been THE success story of the modern era, or China, which you may notice has abandoned all but the trappings of Maoist fanatacism as it pulls itself into the modern age. It's not that getting rich quick made them terrorists, it's that getting rich without having to modernize made them believe that a feudal theocracy was a viable way of organizing a state in the 20th century (indeed, combined with Islamic theology, they became convinced it was the ONLY way to organize a state). It's led to much frustration because despite their fortune that fell out of the sky and Allah's blessings, the infidel West remains stronger than them by orders of magnitude.

I don't know if I necessarily believe his argument (I've never been a very enthusiastic Hegelian, let alone a Marxist), but it's not as simplistic as "They got rich quick, so they're terrorists."
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Post by theski »

If fusion or any other alternatives to oil come into play.. The middleast as anything more than sheepherders will be back in play..
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Post by Darth Wong »

RedImperator wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:The Arabs didn't really earn their money, therefore they're terrorists? This guy is a fucking moron selling false cause fallacies.

Tell me, did the guy running the US government earn his money? Or did he inherit it from Rich Daddy?
That wasn't what he argued at all. He's saying the Arab states got fantastically wealthy without having to earn it--a gift from Allah, if you will, and thus didn't gain an understanding of how the modern world works.
More words, same basic argument. They didn't really earn their money, therefore they're terrorists.
As opposed to Japan, which pulled itself up by its own bootstraps and, had it not been for one dreadful miscalculation, would easily have been THE success story of the modern era, or China, which you may notice has abandoned all but the trappings of Maoist fanatacism as it pulls itself into the modern age.
Thank you for providing the examples which prove you wrong. Both of them killed millions, remember? "Earning" your money does not necessarily make you a civilized society, and relying on Marxist sociology is not a good idea; Karl Marx was a fucking arrogant moron who covered up his bullshit with eloquent language.
It's not that getting rich quick made them terrorists, it's that getting rich without having to modernize made them believe that a feudal theocracy was a viable way of organizing a state in the 20th century (indeed, combined with Islamic theology, they became convinced it was the ONLY way to organize a state).
Adding layers of bullshit on top of an obvious tautology, ie- "they are not civilized because they do not have a modern society". Blaming this on their resource-based economy is unreasonable; Japan industrialized without becoming a modern society until AFTER the Second World War, and it's possible to have a modern society despite being resource-based. Texas ... well, perhaps that's not a good example :)
It's led to much frustration because despite their fortune that fell out of the sky and Allah's blessings, the infidel West remains stronger than them by orders of magnitude.
None of which has to do with the fact that their economy is resource-based. You could say the same thing about Texas.
I don't know if I necessarily believe his argument (I've never been a very enthusiastic Hegelian, let alone a Marxist), but it's not as simplistic as "They got rich quick, so they're terrorists."
Yes it is, it's just cloaked in long-winded language and sophistry.
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Post by Stormbringer »

It's not the riches made them terrorists so much as they got rich and never abandonded the mindset which produces the terrorists.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Stormbringer wrote:It's not the riches made them terrorists so much as they got rich and never abandonded the mindset which produces the terrorists.
Their failure to abandon that mindset has nothing to do with the fact that they have a resource-based economy, and is 100% about religion. The author of that article is obviously one of those people who refuses to simply point the finger at a religion (because, as we all know, religion is the source of all that is good and righteous about society :roll:), so he invents this idiotic notion that it's somehow the result of a resource-based economy.
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"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

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Post by Stormbringer »

Darth Wong wrote:Their failure to abandon that mindset has nothing to do with the fact that they have a resource-based economy, and is 100% about religion. The author of that article is obviously one of those people who refuses to simply point the finger at a religion (because, as we all know, religion is the source of all that is good and righteous about society :roll:), so he invents this idiotic notion that it's somehow the result of a resource-based economy.
The religion is the key problem. But unlike the West and some of Asia they don't have the incentive to abandon that religion. Unlike Europe they didn't have to grow out of the Dark Age culture to get modern comforts and goods. They were handed riches and so unlike most countries that had to create them byt their own effort they simply haven't gained the prospective that it brings.
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Post by Coyote »

Mike, I think it is equally fallacious to say that the whole thing is all about religion. I certainly see that religion plays a part in this but to say that 100% of it is wrapped up in that one answer is to engage in a gross over-simplification.

The religion-- which never went through a reformation, desperately needed by now-- helps propel the situation, but the vast quantities of unearned wealth, a lack of responsible discipline, and an overall social structure still based on medieval norms all play a part in this.
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
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Post by Darth Wong »

Stormbringer wrote:The religion is the key problem. But unlike the West and some of Asia they don't have the incentive to abandon that religion.
Modernization does not necessarily kill religious fervour. You are still assuming there is a connection between industrialization and the death of religion when such connection has not been established. The United States and Canada both have numerous people who are technically proficient yet still imbued with the same sort of fanatical religious fervour which characterizes Muslim extremists.
Unlike Europe they didn't have to grow out of the Dark Age culture to get modern comforts and goods.
Europe grew out of a Dark Age culture by passing through the horror and awakening of World War 2, not by industrializing.
They were handed riches and so unlike most countries that had to create them byt their own effort they simply haven't gained the prospective that it brings.
Nice theory. Got any actual evidence to show that it's necessary in order to explain what happened, instead of simply going for the straightforward approach and observing that key social liberalist movements directly caused the improvements in western society? I have given examples of other societies which industrialized but did not modernize their societies until forced to (literally at gunpoint) such as Japan; do you recognize what those examples represent?
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Post by Darth Wong »

Coyote wrote:Mike, I think it is equally fallacious to say that the whole thing is all about religion. I certainly see that religion plays a part in this but to say that 100% of it is wrapped up in that one answer is to engage in a gross over-simplification.
Explain how industrialization leads you to modernize your society, then. Particularly in light of Japan's example. Religion is the sacred cow that nobody will blame even when it EXPLICITLY ADVOCATES THE BULLSHIT THAT WE ARE CRITICIZING.
The religion-- which never went through a reformation, desperately needed by now-- helps propel the situation, but the vast quantities of unearned wealth, a lack of responsible discipline, and an overall social structure still based on medieval norms all play a part in this.
Texas has vast quantities of unearned wealth too. And every society in the world had a medieval society at one time; what caused the improvement? Look at the social movements which arose in Europe and America which simultaneously modernized social outlooks and cast off a lot of religious baggage; do you feel that these were mere coincidences?
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"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

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Post by SirNitram »

A Dark Age culture circa WWII?

Do I want to know what this is in reference to? There was no massive backslide after WWI, and religion was already starting to die in England(You can't have a village literally vanish because all the men went and died on one battlefield and still feel strongly about a benevolent God).
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Post by Darth Wong »

SirNitram wrote:A Dark Age culture circa WWII?

Do I want to know what this is in reference to?
Germany. Fiercely evangelical, and they voted in the Nazi party on a religious revival/fundamentalism platform [EDIT: as well as the more well-known anti-Semitic platform]. Of course, that little tidbit of history is papered over by the whitewashers ...
There was no massive backslide after WWI, and religion was already starting to die in England(You can't have a village literally vanish because all the men went and died on one battlefield and still feel strongly about a benevolent God).
No, but you can certainly believe in a violent, vengeful God. See the Nazis.
Last edited by Darth Wong on 2003-04-18 01:58pm, edited 1 time in total.
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"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

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Post by SirNitram »

Darth Wong wrote:
SirNitram wrote:A Dark Age culture circa WWII?

Do I want to know what this is in reference to?
Germany. Fiercely evangelical, and they voted in the Nazi party on a religious revival/fundamentalism platform. Of course, that little tidbit of history is papered over by the whitewashers ...
Can't argue that. I was thinking you meant a culture over all of Europe before WWII got shaken up, not one spread by that nightmare.
There was no massive backslide after WWI, and religion was already starting to die in England(You can't have a village literally vanish because all the men went and died on one battlefield and still feel strongly about a benevolent God).
No, but you can certainly believe in a violent, vengeful God. See the Nazis.
That's why it's taken a century to finally fall from Anglican to Agnosticism in Britain.

I was just confused by the Dark Age comparison, I usually associate it with a time of technological backsliding, collapse of countries into smaller nation-states, and assuming rock is a damn fine construction material. It's clear now.
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Post by Stormbringer »

Modernization does not necessarily kill religious fervour. You are still assuming there is a connection between industrialization and the death of religion when such connection has not been established. The United States and Canada both have numerous people who are technically proficient yet still imbued with the same sort of fanatical religious fervour which characterizes Muslim extremists.
I'm not saying industrialization in necssary to reduce extremisim. It's not. Nor did I argue modernization always stamps out religious extremism.

But the rise of secular science did result in the advacement of technology and benefitted society at large. A society entirely in the Dark Ages could not produe the Industrial Revolution.
Europe grew out of a Dark Age culture by passing through the horror and awakening of World War 2, not by industrializing.
Actually that would be the Reformation, the Renisance and the Enlightenment that ended the Dark Ages. Religion has been on general decline ever since then.


The point is that the Middle East unlike the rest of the world can support the worst of Western Decadence without actually doing much. Most of the people are no better than in the Dark Ages yet thanks to oil the elite can obtain anything they want.
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Post by Coyote »

Mike, compared to the Middle East, Europe was and is heavily secularized. Religion had begun moving to the back seat during the Enlightenment. While individual people were and in some cases still are heavily influenced by their religion, it does not have the sway that it does in the Middle East.

Over there, a burqua or chador is common and acceptable-- here it is seen as freaky and aberrant. Women in pants here are not seen as an oddity at all. Women in schools, working, owning their own homes, and lets face it science is overwhelmingly taught in schools even though creationists do, from time to time, make highly publicized gains. But we see these things in the news here precisely because they are unusual.

I am agreeing with you that religion is part of the problem... but only one part of a mosaic of problems. Self-learned industrialization helps defeat beliefs centered in religious mysticism. People began to trust vaccines over prayer when vaccinated babies lived and sick babies 'doctored by prayer' died. The ability to create 'miracles' with the human hand shows that there is nothing amazing or otherworldly about these powers.

So in other words, there was no reason for the Arab world to say, "Allah did not build this machine, I built it." Instead, the machine comes to them from the outside, and it "becomes the will of Allah that I have this machine".
Something about Libertarianism always bothered me. Then one day, I realized what it was:
Libertarian philosophy can be boiled down to the phrase, "Work Will Make You Free."


In Libertarianism, there is no Government, so the Bosses are free to exploit the Workers.
In Communism, there is no Government, so the Workers are free to exploit the Bosses.
So in Libertarianism, man exploits man, but in Communism, its the other way around!

If all you want to do is have some harmless, mindless fun, go H3RE INST3ADZ0RZ!!
Grrr! Fight my Brute, you pansy!
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Post by Darth Wong »

Coyote wrote:Mike, compared to the Middle East, Europe was and is heavily secularized. Religion had begun moving to the back seat during the Enlightenment. While individual people were and in some cases still are heavily influenced by their religion, it does not have the sway that it does in the Middle East.
A man was put on trial for teaching evolution in the early 20th century, and let's face it; women got the vote because they worked the factories during the war.
Over there, a burqua or chador is common and acceptable-- here it is seen as freaky and aberrant.
Yet we still have "public decency" laws and religion-motived dress codes in schools. Same mentality, just a different breaking point.
Women in pants here are not seen as an oddity at all.
A man can take his shirt off in public. A woman can't (well, not in America, anyway; it's OK here in Ontario).
Women in schools, working, owning their own homes, and lets face it science is overwhelmingly taught in schools even though creationists do, from time to time, make highly publicized gains. But we see these things in the news here precisely because they are unusual.
A hundred years ago, this was not the case, yet industrialization had been ongoing for a century.
I am agreeing with you that religion is part of the problem... but only one part of a mosaic of problems. Self-learned industrialization helps defeat beliefs centered in religious mysticism. People began to trust vaccines over prayer when vaccinated babies lived and sick babies 'doctored by prayer' died. The ability to create 'miracles' with the human hand shows that there is nothing amazing or otherworldly about these powers.
The Muslims are already aware of the power of science and vaccines (not to mention technology, as exemplified by, say, an F-15 Strike Eagle :twisted:).
So in other words, there was no reason for the Arab world to say, "Allah did not build this machine, I built it." Instead, the machine comes to them from the outside, and it "becomes the will of Allah that I have this machine".
They know perfectly well that western science has produced these things. Their refusal to let go of their religion stems from numerous social problems stemming from particular religious movements, not from the fact that they have a resource-based economy.
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Post by Coyote »

While your examples are certainly relevant and do indeed back up your point, they are fairly petty compared to examples such as being permanantly mutilated for petty theft; stoning to death for adultery (or even suspicions of adultery; female circumsicion; and the case in Pakistan where a woman was gang-raped as punishment for her brother having sex with a girl from another tribe.

And a woman in many Western lands can't take off her shirt in public... but compared to forcibly having to wear burquas or chadors or risk public stoning?

The point behind all this is that in my opinion, and seemingly backed up by the article, is that one of the reasons why the Middel East never broke out of its medieval-style religious social center is again because they were able to modernise without ever once having to challenge old belief systems-- it just landed in their laps without any need to weigh their values systems against progress.

In fact, the salafiyya movement sees this as a failure of Islam: the West largely abandoned religion and became powerful... so are they favored by God? The response is that if the Muslims become more religious, then they will eventually become more favored by God. But they advocate using the tools and commodities built by the West since a machine has no intrinsic ethical position.
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Darth Gojira
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Post by Darth Gojira »

The article seems to propose the "Sore Loser theory". And it kinda makes sense. Add religious foundations, and the gullible public is pissed.
A man can take his shirt off in public. A woman can't (well, not in America, anyway; it's OK here in Ontario).
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Queeb Salaron
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Post by Queeb Salaron »

A man can take his shirt off in public. A woman can't (well, not in America, anyway; it's OK here in Ontario).
That should be on the Ontario license plates: "Hey, at least our women can take their shirts off in public."

Think of how much the tourism would balloon!
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Post by Tsyroc »

One thing that I got from the excerpt is that he may be explaining some of the attitude/problems of the MIddle East but I think he alludes to some things that could undermine his position a bit in my mind.

He mentioned groups who throughout history made large steps on their own. He isn't very specific but I kept picturing stuff like the people using iron or steel, the invention of the chariot, the stirup, various improvements on the bow , firearms, etc... All things that allowed the people who developed those things to kick the crap out of their neighbors.


I also thought Darth Wong's comment about people inheriting money from their father's was interesting as well. I do think a person has a better appreciation for things that he earns/builds etc... himself. The U.S. has been around long enough that we do have people and families that are loaded because of things that their ancestors did. In some cases the wealth may have basically dropped in the laps of those ancestors as well. So in a sense some of the same problems he suggests for the Middle East can apply to some pretty influential people in the U.S., our current President Bush for example. :-D

Considering that there are Middle Eastern countries (Syria, Jordan) that don't have large supplies of oil makes me question the article a bit. Still, those countries have been able to by modern military equipment so I suppose that could go back to the point of the article since they bought it instead of built it but I find it somewhat confusing in the parts where he seems to dismiss Iraq's attempts at developing things on it's own. Did they have to make a breakthrough entirely on their own for it to be valid?
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Post by Darth Wong »

Personally, I smell an undercurrent of ego-stroking in the article. He concocts this connection, which he doesn't really bother to support with any evidence apart from a correlation which is not supported with examples and whose consistency is dubious at best, in what sounds suspiciously like an attempt to bolster his sense of cultural superiority.

As if it isn't enough to have a stronger economy, it isn't enough to have a more modern culture, it isn't enough for us to be secure in our manhood so we don't have to fear our women and keep them down, and it isn't enough for us to beat the living shit out of them in every war since industrialization, we have to concoct even more reasons to remind ourselves why we're better than they are.

I guess that's what irritates me most about the article; the claims are questionable, unsupported, and expressed in a manner that indicates he's just out to reinforce his (our?) notions of cultural superiority, not solve problems or explain genuine mysteries.
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Post by kojikun »

Mike, if it _IS_ religion that is driving them to assward backness, then should this war be against Islam's perverse forms? :P

One thing that amazes me is that 500 or so years ago the Middle East was the CENTER of human scientific endeavor because to them, at that time, knowledge and the pursuit of it was learning about Gods glorious creation, and the more facts about the universe you knew, the more TRUTH you had about God.

But now the Middle East has devolved from a veritable scientific mecca into psycho Islam central.
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