Christian school.

[Queeb Salaron]

Since the original post was from New Zealand, American laws do not apply. I don't know whether Catholic schools can draw any government money in New Zealand. Mind you, simply being tax-exempt is a form of government subsidy, but people sort of take religious tax-exemption for granted so it's normally treated that way.

Ah. All apologies.

[Queeb Salaron]

My words, when they are logically consistent and based upon evidence are certainly worth much more respect then the irrational, unfounded mysticism contained within the Bible. As for how harmless it is, one only needs to look at the Mid-East and the Crusades to see the consequences of these beliefs, when they are taken seriously. The only reason these beliefs can be considered "harmless" in modern times is because few people take them seriously or live by a literal interpretation of their holy book, however this does not change the fact that these beliefs are, at their root, irrational and, to a degree, evil.

By that logic, everyone who likes / believes in science is evil because it was scientists that invented the nuclear bomb. Obviously Christians today do not go on Crusades. Thus they are harmless, much as ordinary scientists are harmless. As soon as someone declares a holy war, feel free to speak up and speak out against that religious sect. Until then, I suggest you politely keep your mouth shut. Your OPINION on this matter is just that: OPINION. It is not fact, and your opinion holds no more sway over the lives of Christians than any other voice.

Even if everyone despised everything I did, it would not change the fact that they would be lying if they claimed to respect my beliefs when they really despised me.

The beauty is, we don't have to agree with your opinions and beliefs to agree that you have a right to them. Sure, go ahead, believe what you want to believe. But when you start intruding on the lives of others, taking a stand against a benign religious practice without any kind of cause at all, I can start to take a stand against YOU. I'm only operating under your own logic.

In all seriousness though, in the context of the point I mean "offending" in the sense that they feel offended when you state what you think on a given issue, not "offending" in the sense that you spit on them because you disagree with them.

Fine, but a Christian mass is not the place to be discussing your opinion, either in word or deed. It's called courtesy. Could you justify stopping the minister/priest/father mid-sermon to argue the existence of God in front of a group of Christians? That is being offensive for the purpose of being offensive, not for any kind of constructive reason. The same goes for not bowing your head.

Once again, I point out that the Gosepls, Christianity, and religion in general are not harmless.

Bullshit. Neither are politics or race, and you don't see us burning down the White House or committing genocide. You cling to the Crusades with an iron fist. Let it go. Christianity has reformed numerous times since then. As for other religious fundamentalists, yes, some are dangerous. And in those extreme cases, I say feel free to speak out against the atrocities they have committed. But name for me an instance where normal Christians, the kind that run high schools, have sent suicide bombers into crowded marketplaces, and then I'll agree that Christianity is harmful.

Furthermore, by acting contrarty to your convictions you are labeling yourself as a hypocrit or a liar; as a consequence people will have trouble taking what you say and do seriously.

So don't go to mass! Don't go to a Christian school! Avoid being a hypocrit! But for God's sake, man, let others have faith in peace! Here's a rule I'm sure your little Satanic mind (that's a classification, not an insult) might like: If another man tries to tell you what to believe, THEN you have a right to debate with him about it. But when a man establishes the rules of behavior in his house prior to you entering, you are expected to obey those rules. Furthermore, any disrespect shown to the host should be considered ignorance and arrogance and should be punished.

Added to this is the fact that there is the very real cost of the personal humiliation you suffer by "knuckling under" and humoring something you think is complete bullshit.

If you think it's complete bullshit, why stay in the school? Why enroll in the first place? Answer me that. The student in question is ultimately in control of his own academic destiny. He can choose to walk out at any time and go to a different school, one that is less oppressively religious. Enrolling in that school in the first place is either massochistic or just plain stupid. I haven't quite decided which yet.

Fundies believe they are on a mission from God and believe that you are the epitome of evil, damned to an eternity in hell, if you do not accept (or worse yet oppose or refute) their religion. My judgements are based on evidence and rationality; furthermore my judgements do not impose anything on those who disagree with me (other then the requirement that they respect my inalienable Rights).

WHAT?! Respect YOUR inalienable rights? What about the inalienable rights of those you condemn as deserving no respect?! They have the freedom to practice their religion without assholes like you mucking up the process! The Cult aspect of Catholicism, for example, requires you to bow your head when the Gospel is presented and when it is read. And when someone refuses to follow the Cult of the religion, they are condemning that practice as illigitimate. And when ANY aspect of a religion is deemed illigitimate by an outsider who is present at the ceremony in question, that outsider is creating an atmosphere wherein there is a blatant lack of respect for the proceedings and their gravity to the parishoners. This is a blatant violation of those inalienable rights that you claim loyalty to. I don't even believe you brought that up as a serious point. Yes, you have the right to not practice a certain religion, but you do NOT have the right to flippantly disrespect another religion and those who practice it at a religious ceremony. It would be like spraying a swastika on the Torah during a Bar Mitzvah.

My previous counterpoints have dealt with your reasoning on point 7. It's a shame you think I'm nothing but a mindless animal, but I can see how the format of my last post might lead you to that conclusion. The confusion proabably resulted my not defining exactly what I meant with several of the terms I used, but in my defense I did think that what I meant by those terms was firmly established by my previous posts.

Hm. Try a bit harder next time. That was a whole lot of hot air wasted.

[master_yoda]

Queeb Salaron

I was christian when I joined this school, think about it, why the fuck would an atheist join a christian school? I really feel insulted, considering I said that on the second page of this thread.

But I think I would consider changing to a school that doesn't care what religon you are.

[BlkbrryTheGreat]

My words, when they are logically consistent and based upon evidence are certainly worth much more respect then the irrational, unfounded mysticism contained within the Bible. As for how harmless it is, one only needs to look at the Mid-East and the Crusades to see the consequences of these beliefs, when they are taken seriously. The only reason these beliefs can be considered "harmless" in modern times is because few people take them seriously or live by a literal interpretation of their holy book, however this does not change the fact that these beliefs are, at their root, irrational and, to a degree, evil.

By that logic, everyone who likes / believes in science is evil because it was scientists that invented the nuclear bomb. Obviously Christians today do not go on Crusades. Thus they are harmless, much as ordinary scientists are harmless. As soon as someone declares a holy war, feel free to speak up and speak out against that religious sect. Until then, I suggest you politely keep your mouth shut. Your OPINION on this matter is just that: OPINION. It is not fact, and your opinion holds no more sway over the lives of Christians than any other voice.

Once again, you are demonstrating that you lack the ablitity to think critically. Science is merely the systematic study of reality, it has no moral code attached; to compare it to organized religion, and Christianity in general, in such a fashion is to attack a strawman. As stated by earlier by both Mike and I, Christianity is intrinsically evil- the fact that some Christians keep to themselves, and thus seem harmless, does NOT change the evil nature of Christianity.

Even if everyone despised everything I did, it would not change the fact that they would be lying if they claimed to respect my beliefs when they really despised me.

The beauty is, we don't have to agree with your opinions and beliefs to agree that you have a right to them. Sure, go ahead, believe what you want to believe. But when you start intruding on the lives of others, taking a stand against a benign religious practice without any kind of cause at all, I can start to take a stand against YOU. I'm only operating under your own logic.

The Holy Bible is based upon irrationality and tells us we must worship a depraved tyrant; a benign religious practice does not change the inherent doctrine and "divine knowledge" upon which Christianity is based. Taking this into consideration I would say that I'm perfectly justified taking a stand against their religion by refusing to grant it any sort of respect. Once again, refusing to grant respect is NOT the same as disrespect.

Furthermore, the fact remains that granting respect to something you despise is nothing but a lie. Nothing you have said has changed that point or has even come close to refuting it. That everyone has a right to their opinion does not change that fact.

In all seriousness though, in the context of the point I mean "offending" in the sense that they feel offended when you state what you think on a given issue, not "offending" in the sense that you spit on them because you disagree with them.

Fine, but a Christian mass is not the place to be discussing your opinion, either in word or deed. It's called courtesy. Could you justify stopping the minister/priest/father mid-sermon to argue the existence of God in front of a group of Christians? That is being offensive for the purpose of being offensive, not for any kind of constructive reason. The same goes for not bowing your head.

There is a subtancial difference between the two. Interrupting in the middle of a Mass is disruptive to the ritual (except for Quakers....), because of this we can it is disrespectful. Refusing to bow ones head does NOT interrupt the ritual... it is refusing to grant respect. Quite frankly only an idiot would claim that refusing to Kowtow to Christian beliefs is a discourtesy or is directly offensive for the sake of being offensive.

Once again, I point out that the Gosepls, Christianity, and religion in general are not harmless.

Bullshit. Neither are politics or race, and you don't see us burning down the White House or committing genocide. You cling to the Crusades with an iron fist. Let it go. Christianity has reformed numerous times since then. As for other religious fundamentalists, yes, some are dangerous. And in those extreme cases, I say feel free to speak out against the atrocities they have committed. But name for me an instance where normal Christians, the kind that run high schools, have sent suicide bombers into crowded marketplaces, and then I'll agree that Christianity is harmful.

Politics and race relations are dependent upon their content, which can vary greatly from person to person. The content of the Christianity and the Holy Bible do not have the same wiggle room; their nature is firmly established. Thus one is perfectly validated when one says that the religion is harmful in and of itself in that it teaches irrationality and immorality, explicity and by example.

Furthermore, by acting contrarty to your convictions you are labeling yourself as a hypocrit or a liar; as a consequence people will have trouble taking what you say and do seriously.

So don't go to mass! Don't go to a Christian school! Avoid being a hypocrit! But for God's sake, man, let others have faith in peace! Here's a rule I'm sure your little Satanic mind (that's a classification, not an insult) might like: If another man tries to tell you what to believe, THEN you have a right to debate with him about it. But when a man establishes the rules of behavior in his house prior to you entering, you are expected to obey those rules. Furthermore, any disrespect shown to the host should be considered ignorance and arrogance and should be punished.

Oh? So I should be put on the rack for refusing to bow my head?

Added to this is the fact that there is the very real cost of the personal humiliation you suffer by "knuckling under" and humoring something you think is complete bullshit.

If you think it's complete bullshit, why stay in the school? Why enroll in the first place? Answer me that. The student in question is ultimately in control of his own academic destiny. He can choose to walk out at any time and go to a different school, one that is less oppressively religious. Enrolling in that school in the first place is either massochistic or just plain stupid. I haven't quite decided which yet.

Cost benefit analysis. You might be forced to go to a Mass to obtain something that is worth wasting an hour (or more) of your time in a Church. For example I would go to a Mass if it was a requirement for getting laid. However, I would NOT bow my head or show any outward signs of respect or reverence; I would simply be a peacable observer.

Fundies believe they are on a mission from God and believe that you are the epitome of evil, damned to an eternity in hell, if you do not accept (or worse yet oppose or refute) their religion. My judgements are based on evidence and rationality; furthermore my judgements do not impose anything on those who disagree with me (other then the requirement that they respect my inalienable Rights).

WHAT?! Respect YOUR inalienable rights? What about the inalienable rights of those you condemn as deserving no respect?! They have the freedom to practice their religion without assholes like you mucking up the process! The Cult aspect of Catholicism, for example, requires you to bow your head when the Gospel is presented and when it is read. And when someone refuses to follow the Cult of the religion, they are condemning that practice as illigitimate. And when ANY aspect of a religion is deemed illigitimate by an outsider who is present at the ceremony in question, that outsider is creating an atmosphere wherein there is a blatant lack of respect for the proceedings and their gravity to the parishoners. This is a blatant violation of those inalienable rights that you claim loyalty to. I don't even believe you brought that up as a serious point. Yes, you have the right to not practice a certain religion, but you do NOT have the right to flippantly disrespect another religion and those who practice it at a religious ceremony. It would be like spraying a swastika on the Torah during a Bar Mitzvah.

Respecting property rights and blindly obeying Christian Dogma are two different things. By observing peaceably I am not directly interrupting their ceremony, but if asked to leave I would. Taking this into considerationg, only an intolerent asshole would claim that acting as a peaceful observer is disruptive.

[Enforcer Talen]

minor comment - when in church, I dont bow my head when they pray. the people that care about it have their heads bowed, and so dont see it. it works out well.

[Queeb Salaron]

Queeb Salaron

I was christian when I joined this school, think about it, why the fuck would an atheist join a christian school? I really feel insulted, considering I said that on the second page of this thread.

Friend, I meant you no disrespect, and I apologize for forgetting that we really are talking about an actual person here, not just a hypothetical situation. I, too, went to a Christian school, so I feel your pain. Moreover, in about my third year I abandoned Christianity, and with only a year and a half to go, I decided NOT to leave and just stick it out. So I had to deal with all the "you've gotta pray!" shit, as well. I apologize again for losing sight of the implications behind discussing the topic at hand.

But I think I would consider changing to a school that doesn't care what religon you are.

If you can do that, great. I found myself in a situation where transferring schools would only mess up my records and make applying to College an absolute nightmare. But if you're early enough in your school career that you can transfer without many problems, I say go for it. If the "imposed" Cult of the school is really a problem, then you can only do well by transferring somewhere else.

Good luck!

[Queeb Salaron]

As stated by earlier by both Mike and I, Christianity is intrinsically evil- the fact that some Christians keep to themselves, and thus seem harmless, does NOT change the evil nature of Christianity.

And as soon as you can prove to me that Christianity is evil, and that Christians do evil things to people, and that all facets of that religion call for such, then I will believe you. I believe the group you are referring to are the Christian fundamentalists, who most certainly do NOT represent Christians as a whole. The logical fallacy is yours, saying that because you and Mike said it earlier, it MUST be true.

The Holy Bible is based upon irrationality and tells us we must worship a depraved tyrant; a benign religious practice does not change the inherent doctrine and "divine knowledge" upon which Christianity is based. Taking this into consideration I would say that I'm perfectly justified taking a stand against their religion by refusing to grant it any sort of respect. Once again, refusing to grant respect is NOT the same as disrespect.

Depraved tyrant? When has this "tryant" ever hurt you? Or any other human, for that matter? Again, you have yet to prove to me that Christianity is harmful and is worthy of anyone not respecting it.

Furthermore, the fact remains that granting respect to something you despise is nothing but a lie. Nothing you have said has changed that point or has even come close to refuting it. That everyone has a right to their opinion does not change that fact.

Ok, fine. Point conceeded out of sheer boredom with this looping argument.

There is a subtancial difference between the two. Interrupting in the middle of a Mass is disruptive to the ritual (except for Quakers....), because of this we can it is disrespectful. Refusing to bow ones head does NOT interrupt the ritual... it is refusing to grant respect. Quite frankly only an idiot would claim that refusing to Kowtow to Christian beliefs is a discourtesy or is directly offensive for the sake of being offensive.

It's bowing your head! No one ever said that you had to pray or believe or think a certain way. It's bowing your friggin' head! And if you can't even do THAT much, then don't go to mass. That's my point. If you don't want to belong, don't put yourself in situations where people expect you to either belong, or else respect those who already do. Because THAT is the ultimate act of hypocrisy.

Politics and race relations are dependent upon their content, which can vary greatly from person to person. The content of the Christianity and the Holy Bible do not have the same wiggle room; their nature is firmly established. Thus one is perfectly validated when one says that the religion is harmful in and of itself in that it teaches irrationality and immorality, explicity and by example.

Of course Christianity has the same wiggle room. You tell a Baptist that he's essentially a Catholic, and you're bound to get looked at funny, if not outrightly refuted. Religious convictions, like political convictions, vary from person to person. You have your extremists and your moderates, and then you have those whose beliefs don't fit on the spectrum. The extremists, from Lenin to Buchanan, from Scientologists to the Taliban, are all extraordinarily different. Christianity spans a good deal of this spectrum. Don't try and tell me otherwise.

Oh? So I should be put on the rack for refusing to bow my head?

I was trying to use your own logic for my purposes, to try and show you how ridiculous your argument was. And because the argument came out as ridiculous (as you have acknowledged), it worked. Touché.

Cost benefit analysis. You might be forced to go to a Mass to obtain something that is worth wasting an hour (or more) of your time in a Church. For example I would go to a Mass if it was a requirement for getting laid. However, I would NOT bow my head or show any outward signs of respect or reverence; I would simply be a peacable observer.

Umm... I fail to see what this has to do with anything. If you WOULD go to church under certain circumstances, than you have no right to say that going to church is a bad thing, because you would do so under your own free will.

Respecting property rights and blindly obeying Christian Dogma are two different things. By observing peaceably I am not directly interrupting their ceremony, but if asked to leave I would. Taking this into considerationg, only an intolerent asshole would claim that acting as a peaceful observer is disruptive.

::Nods:: Point conceeded. Hell, all points conceded. I'm done with this.

[LadyTevar]

Queeb Salaron, Sir Nitram, Thank you for stepping in while I was AFK.


Wong, once again, I reserve the right to politely disagree with you, and I will wait until the thread calms down to the point of intelligent discussion again before resuming our talk.

BlkBrry. Your 'points' are just as much personal opinion as they are a blind flailing attack.

[quote=blkbrry the great]Showing respect for something you despise is a lie[/quote]

I have been showing respect for you thus far. According to you, I've been lying. According to more enlightened and polite societies, I have been humoring you because it does no harm to me.

This is called a Social Lie, Blkbrry.
It is the ability to look at someone who's got on a totally outrageous outfit that really doesn't look good on them and say with a straight face how good they look. It's the ability to sit and listen to someone drone on and on about a subject you couldn't care less about, and nod politely at each point. Social Lies are like the grease between ball bearings, allowing a society to live together without rubbing each other raw.

Of course, this is something any Mature Individual can appreciate, as they have learned when it's best to let sleeping dogs lie, when it's best to speak up for themselves, and when you just have to ignore the little yip-dog barking his fool head off.

Happy Easter.

[ ignore=Blkbrry ]

[Sir Sirius]

And as soon as you can prove to me that Christianity is evil [Read the bible], and that Christians do evil things to people [the Crusades, the Inquisition, centuries of oppressing the Jews Etc.], and that all facets of that religion call for such, then I will believe you.

The bible, the central holy book of christianity, calls for such deeds to be committed.

I believe the group you are referring to are the Christian fundamentalists, who most certainly do NOT represent Christians as a whole.

Indeed, most christians are better then the fundies, but that is only because they ignore a lot of the crap in the bible.

The logical fallacy is yours, saying that because you and Mike said it earlier, it MUST be true.

Hmmm... Is that a Wall of Ignorance I see in the horizon?
You've done nothing to counter any of Mike's points, other then just whine that he is wrong.

Depraved tyrant? When has this "tryant" ever hurt you? Or any other human, for that matter?

Let's see, he has condemned billions of people to eternal damnation in hell because Adam & Eve ate an apple, murdered every human on Earth except Noah and his family in the great flood, destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, mass infanticide of Egyptian children and... Ah, hell, I'm not going to list every single atrocity committed by YHWH in the OT, read it your self.

Again, you have yet to prove to me that Christianity is harmful and is worthy of anyone not respecting it.

Respect is not a default condition, it must be earned and as far as I am concerned christianity hasn't done anything to earn respect.

It's bowing your head! No one ever said that you had to pray or believe or think a certain way. It's bowing your friggin' head!

If bowing your head is such a small deal why are those christians at Masters Yoda's school making such a big deal about it?

And if you can't even do THAT much, then don't go to mass.

Master Yoda doesn't really seem to have a choice.

Of course Christianity has the same wiggle room. <snip, irrelevant ramblings>

The bible is pretty much the same no matter wich denomination of christianity we are talking about, as long as christians continue to espouse the greatness of the bible and claim that it is a wonderfull moral quide, blaming christianity for the bible's moronic hatefilled passages is OK.

[Durandal]

Most Christians have never really read the Bible, or they've been socially conditioned to think that it is the font of all goodness, so they assume that today's secular values (human rights) actually come from the Bible based on the fact that the Bible tells people not to kill or steal and that killing and stealing are illegal in our society (no, I'm not joking).

It's not so much that we can blame individual Christians, but we should blame Christianity as a belief structure and an institution.

[Jonathan]

Most Christians have never really read the Bible, or they've been socially conditioned to think that it is the font of all goodness, so they assume that today's secular values (human rights) actually come from the Bible based on the fact that the Bible tells people not to kill or steal and that killing and stealing are illegal in our society (no, I'm not joking).

It's not so much that we can blame individual Christians, but we should blame Christianity as a belief structure and an institution.

Most people who think they are Christians are not actually Christians. Most people get the definition completely wrong. What exactly are you blaming Christiantiyn for, bearing in mind that its teo greatest commandments are to love God and love your fellow man?

[Jonathan]

The bible, the central holy book of christianity, calls for such deeds to be committed.

Claim without evidence. Where does the Bible say to carry out the Inquisition, Crusades, oppression of Jews, etc? The two greatest commandments in the Bible are to love God and to love your fellow man. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. It tells us to go and spread the Gospel to people. Kinda hard ot do if you kill them. It says that Jesus was a Jew, that most of his early followers were Jews, that the greatest missionary, Paul, was a Jew, that being a Jew is a good thing and not something that can be said of you because of where you were born/who you were born to, but rather because of what is in your heart. such things, although claimed to be done in the name of God, were very much against the teaching of the Bible. It is common practice to demand evidence for a claim, so why do people accept without question, an act claimed to be committed in the name of God when it causes pain to others?

Indeed, most christians are better then the fundies, but that is only because they ignore a lot of the crap in the bible.

I would say that it's ignoring what the Bible said that led to the Crusades, Inquistion, et al.

Let's see, he has condemned billions of people to eternal damnation in hell

John 3:16-18. Christ came not to condemn, but to save. We condemn ourselves and God offers a way out.

because Adam & Eve ate an apple, murdered every human on Earth

Killed, not murdered. Murdered is a pejorative term and shouldn't be used in a debate about whether such an action was right or not because it implies that your mind is made up and you are refusing to consider other possabilities.

except Noah and his family in the great flood, destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, mass infanticide of Egyptian children and... Ah, hell, I'm not going to list every single atrocity committed by YHWH in the OT, read it your self.

The wages of sin is death. It's what we all deserve and is, quite frankly, what people ask for. If you reject God, you're asking to be separated from him, right? So that's what God gives people. Cuts them off from him forever. Of course he warns them what it's going to be like, but people are still convinced that it'll be a lot more fun without him. I find is sad that they get it wrong, but it's their choice and they got exactly what they asked for.

Respect is not a default condition, it must be earned and as far as I am concerned christianity hasn't done anything to earn respect.

Out of curiousity, would you expect Christians to respect atheism?

The bible is pretty much the same no matter wich denomination of christianity we are talking about, as long as christians continue to espouse the greatness of the bible and claim that it is a wonderfull moral quide, blaming christianity for the bible's moronic hatefilled passages is OK.

Passages such as Matthew 22:34-40, John 3:16, John 15:17, Rom 8:37-39, Rom 12:9-21, Rom 13:10, 1 Cor 13:1-13, Gal 5:22-23, Col 3:12-17, etc?

Do you regard all hate as wrong? Do you hate seeing people suffer? Do you hate the sight of injustice? Do you hate seeing evil at work in the world? Because that is the context of any hate you see in the Bible. God hates sin, while loving the sinner.

[Enforcer Talen]

can we seperate this to new topic? this will be fun.

[Kuroneko]

Claim without evidence. Where does the Bible say to carry out the Inquisition, Crusades, oppression of Jews, etc? The two greatest commandments in the Bible are to love God and to love your fellow man. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you...

I've never undestood this last commandment. According to it, it is acceptable for a sadist to torture people, or for a suicidal person to murder.



I second Enforcer Talen; this topic should be split.

[Cthulhu-chan]

Jeebus, someones about to get themselves ripped a new one...

[Jonathan]

I've never undestood this last commandment. According to it, it is acceptable for a sadist to torture people, or for a suicidal person to murder.

Not at all, because the verse is not the only one in the Bible. This is the very problem that has lead to such things as the Inquisition. People don;t know how to study. If you're examining a verse, it needs to be taken in the context of the passage, of the book it is in and of the Bible as a whole. When we look at the surrounding passages, we see they say that we should love one another. When we look at other books, they say that you shouldn't torture people or murder. When Jesus says 'as you would have them do unto you', it is taken that this excludes anything sinful as the greatest commandment is 'love God' and it stated that loving God means following his commands and teaching, which means no torturing people and no murdering.

I second Enforcer Talen; this topic should be split.

I don't really have the time for a big debate at the moment. Heading back to uni on Wednesday, with an essay ont he spectrum of Helium to do and several mock papers to sit as soon as I get there. We get to be guinea pigs for the new finals papers. Woohoo. I am so happy, I think I might die.

[Enforcer Talen]

if your going to quote the bible in this forum, expect a debate.

[Cthulhu-chan]

What?! You're running already? B-but, there hasn't even been any return fire! I want blood! BLOOD, I tells ya!

[Keevan_Colton]

The wages of sin is death. It's what we all deserve and is, quite frankly, what people ask for. If you reject God, you're asking to be separated from him, right? So that's what God gives people. Cuts them off from him forever. Of course he warns them what it's going to be like, but people are still convinced that it'll be a lot more fun without him. I find is sad that they get it wrong, but it's their choice and they got exactly what they asked for.

Alright, how many sins can an infant be guilty of?
That is total bullshit as a defence.

[Darth Wong]

Claim without evidence. Where does the Bible say to carry out the Inquisition, Crusades, oppression of Jews, etc?

For the umpteenth time, the Bible praises the ancient Israelites for committing mass-murder in the service of their bloodthirsty god. I recommend everyone look at the Hatemail page entry for "Jonathan Boyd" on my Creationism website.

The two greatest commandments in the Bible are to love God and to love your fellow man.

Actually #1 is to have no other god before the Judeo-Christian God, and #2 is to have no graven images. None of the original ten commandments said anything about loving your fellow man. But of course, we all know how poor Biblical consistency is, and it's no surprise that Jesus would get them wrong. He was only human, after all.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. It tells us to go and spread the Gospel to people. Kinda hard ot do if you kill them.

Yadda yadda yadda, acting as if the Old Testament doesn't exist, or that Jesus never told us to worship the God who claimed responsibility for such atrocities.

Indeed, most christians are better then the fundies, but that is only because they ignore a lot of the crap in the bible.

I would say that it's ignoring what the Bible said that led to the Crusades, Inquistion, et al.

Who ignores the Bible more? Me, or a typical medieval Crusader?

John 3:16-18. Christ came not to condemn, but to save. We condemn ourselves and God offers a way out.

Ah yes, this is the theological equivalent of "you brought this punishment down upon yourself, boy! Now stay still while I give you a whuppin'!"

Killed, not murdered. Murdered is a pejorative term and shouldn't be used in a debate about whether such an action was right or not because it implies that your mind is made up and you are refusing to consider other possabilities.

Murder is the technically correct term for killing someone in any situation other than self-defense, asshole. Of COURSE murder is a perjorative term; MOST of us recognize that it's bad to kill people! Too bad you don't.

The wages of sin is death. It's what we all deserve and is, quite frankly, what people ask for.

Precisely. You think it's OK to murder people and torture them forever because they ALL deserve it equally, since there is no difference between mass-murder and swearing. And you don't understand why you're a raving loon.

If you reject God, you're asking to be separated from him, right? So that's what God gives people. Cuts them off from him forever. Of course he warns them what it's going to be like, but people are still convinced that it'll be a lot more fun without him. I find is sad that they get it wrong, but it's their choice and they got exactly what they asked for.

And you get exactly what you ask for, which is to be vilified as an utterly amoral fanatic and a moron.

Out of curiousity, would you expect Christians to respect atheism?

No, I expect Christians to respect individuals on their own merits. But of course, it's not surprising that YOU would think in terms of group associations, because that's how it works in your twisted morality.

Passages such as Matthew 22:34-40, John 3:16, John 15:17, Rom 8:37-39, Rom 12:9-21, Rom 13:10, 1 Cor 13:1-13, Gal 5:22-23, Col 3:12-17, etc?

You can't cancel out evil by pointing out good things. Would you expect people to forgive a mass-murderer because he helps out at the soup kitchen?

Do you regard all hate as wrong? Do you hate seeing people suffer? Do you hate the sight of injustice? Do you hate seeing evil at work in the world?

Yes, and you wonder why I despise the actions of the Old Testament God, and have little more respect for the revised New Testament God, whose only real improvement is to defer his cruelty until the afterlife. What greater injustice is there than punishing people not based on their actions in life, but based on their beliefs?

Because that is the context of any hate you see in the Bible. God hates sin, while loving the sinner.

Oldest bullshit line in the book. If God loves the sinner, why does he place conditions on forgiving him which have nothing to do with atonement, and everything to do with kissing his ass?

[Kuroneko]

I've never undestood this last commandment. According to it, it is acceptable for a sadist to torture people, or for a suicidal person to murder.

Not at all, because the verse is not the only one in the Bible... When we look at other books, they say that you shouldn't torture people or murder. When Jesus says 'as you would have them do unto you', it is taken that this excludes anything sinful as the greatest commandment is 'love God' and it stated that loving God means following his commands and teaching, which means no torturing people and no murdering.

Ah, so it was intended less as a commandment and more of a clarification... the actual commandments being more specific and found elsewhere in the books, i.e. "don't murder" and "don't torture." That would make more sense.

Mind you, a commandment like "don't murder" by itself is pretty vacuous, since murder is by definition an impermissible killing, so it is basically the same as saying "impermissible killings are impermissible." What would be needed is an outline of precisely which killings are impermissible and which are justified... going by the Old Testament, a great number of killings were apparently justified with which I would disagree with.

[Jonathan]

What?! You're running already? B-but, there hasn't even been any return fire! I want blood! BLOOD, I tells ya!

I didn't say I was running, just that I was going to be busy the next week or so, so I wouldn't be able to get into debates with to many people. I'll still be giving blood, don't worry :^)

[Jonathan]

if your going to quote the bible in this forum, expect a debate.

It's a debate forum. I kinda expected a bit of debate. That's why I posted.

[Jonathan]

Ah, so it was intended less as a commandment and more of a clarification... the actual commandments being more specific and found elsewhere in the books, i.e. "don't murder" and "don't torture." That would make more sense.

Pretty much, yeah. The Sermon on the Mount does a lot of clarification of what the Law given in the OT is about, for instance and the epistles further expand on some of the themes, such as love for an enemy in Romans 9. It's pretty challenging stuff which the vast majority of Christians, myself included, fail miserably to live up to. Thank goodness for Grace.

Mind you, a commandment like "don't murder" by itself is pretty vacuous, since murder is by definition an impermissible killing, so it is basically the same as saying "impermissible killings are impermissible."

Yeah, I always found it a little amusing :^)

What would be needed is an outline of precisely which killings are impermissible and which are justified... going by the Old Testament, a great number of killings were apparently justified with which I would disagree with.

If you're not convinced it's right, don't do it, would be my way of doing things. Killing, I think, is permissable in only 2 circumstances: if God specifically comes down and says to do it, or in a just war (i.e. one which is to prevent a larger evil. WWII would be a just war for instance, while the Crusades were not). Self defence is something I'm not sure about.

Bascially, I'm of the opinion that we all deserve death, but do not have the right to take a life from someone else because we're sinners, God loves everyone and wants everyone to be saved and escape the second death (i.e. going to hell). The killings in the Old Testament were partly because people were bund by the law - the only way to salvation was through following the law perfectly, which people didn't do - and partly as a foreshadowing of what will happen when Jesus comes again and everyone who hasn't repented will be die/be killed and go to hell.

Don't particularly want that to happen to people, and neither does God, so working towards convincing people that the whole repentence thing is a good idea. Doesn't work too well here...

[Enforcer Talen]

deserve death? for what?