Christian school.

Cthulhu-chan · Post by **Cthulhu-chan** » 2003-04-19 03:54am

The fact that you state you would kill your own child at god's behest just shows how morally bankrupt you are. Using Abraham as an example is the worst thing you could do, since ol' Abe was quite the loyal little sheep. Yet when god, for no stated reason, demands his son's life, he does it (almost). That god was testing Abe makes it all the worse! He wanted to make sure Abe was willing to whatever he said, no matter how reprehensible, for little or no reason! That's what morally bankrupt means! That Abe even considered the order at all shows how poor a grasp of right and wrong he had. And god is once again shown to be an immoral, sadistic prick who gets his jollies off tourturing the mortal rubes.

BlkbrryTheGreat · Post by **BlkbrryTheGreat** » 2003-04-19 04:02am

I said it is right to obey God.

Therefore if God says to kill in infant, killing it is the right thing to do. Sorry, you can't dodge that point- not in an authoritarian morality like yours.

Significantly better than yours actually and pointed out that we are under Grace, rather than Law, so I would never be in that situation.

Your not Omniscient, you do not know what God will or will not do. (If he does exist).

So you're not going to answer the question of why your moral system is supposedly better? Because that's the really issue isn't it Mike? You judge my morals by your moral system, but what is its basis? What makes it 'right' After all, you've just made it up. It doesn't come from anywhere.

I answered it for him. However, I think I'll clarify it a bit more. Your moral code is based upon the Holy Bible... a book for which there is no evidence to support the theory that it was written under the guidence of God. Furthermore the only justification that "God" could give for his moral code (if he does indeed exist) is "because I said so".

My morality (and I think Mike's, but I don't presume to say for sure) is logically derived from t he nature of man, its fundamental position is that life is good and man should develop rules to maintain it a soceity of fellow men.

BlkbrryTheGreat · Post by **BlkbrryTheGreat** » 2003-04-19 04:13am

You also believe that morality is derived from the Will of God. Hence your belief that murder is wrong is completely dependent upon the the Will of God. If the Will of God is your Moral compass you cannot claim that the murder is wrong if it is the Will of God; well not if you want to be logically consistent anyway.

Fundamentalist Moron wrote: Murder is defined as unlawful killing and God says murder is wrong. I've no idea what point you just tried to make.

Yet he routinely commanded people to kill and the justification for the actions was that he commanded it. So that means that God either dosen't take the Ten Commandments seriously, or that hes a hypocrit- take your pick.

[/quote]I know certain facts about God that preclude the question from being possible. To ask me to answer it would be to ask me to believe something I don't believe, therefore the answer would not be representative of my actual views.

What you know about God is comes from God. Did it ever occur to you that he might change his mind? That he might not have told you everything? That me might have lied to you? I repeat you're not omniscient, you cannot know what God will or will not ask of you. (Assuming he exists).

Jonathan · Post by **Jonathan** » 2003-04-19 04:29am

Darth Wong wrote:How does killing an innocent person even the scales of other sins?

God didn't kill him. Jesus sacrificed himself. He didn't deserve death, but died for us. Why does that mean we're forgiven? It just does. You've got to have some axioims, some points where you say 'Beause.' Maybe this is one of them.

Yet again, the universal "context" excuse. I asked if you thought it was OK to kill babies, and you said it was just fine if God did it, or if somebody did it at God's command. You can't escape your own words.

I'm not. On the contrary, I"m trying to get you to use them all and put the quote in context.

My moral system starts from the universal premise that life/pleasure are good, while death/suffering are bad. That premise is much more reasonable than the premise that the Bible is true.
Why is your premise more reasonable? How can you say that it is universal?

All creatures instinctively try to avoid death and suffering, dumb-ass.

Way to encourage intellectual curiosity!

It is obviously universal.

What makes it universally moral?

To compare the universality of such a simple premise with the notion that an ancient book of mythology is literally true is absurd.

Why?

Good. You just admitted that God did bad things by causing vast amounts of death and suffering.

No I didn't because we cause suffering and bring death on ourselves.

I like the way you honestly believe that this nonsense is just as reasonable as the simple statement that life/pleasure are good and death/suffering are bad.

Why would your statement be any more reasonable?

You have failed to establish this. Your God claims to deserve worship. However, his stated conduct has shown that if he existed anywhere but the inside of your head, he would deserve nothing but contempt.

Under your moral system. But I'm talking about under his. Him deserving glory is axiomatic. You have failed to give any reason for superiority of your moral system.

Stop splitting hairs between baby-killing and murder; you're fooling no one.

Where have I tried that? Again with the ad-hominen. I've made it very clear that I see a difference between killing and murder and consider murder wrong by definition.

Killing is always murder unless you have a specific justification, such as self-defense. And there is no justification to ever kill a baby.

Which is where we disagree. Just because there is no reason to you, doesn't mean there isn't to me. One of us has got to be right and one wrong, but what reason do you have for saying that you are any more likely to be right?

You said you "hoped" you would be able to do it if asked. It's a rare and despicable man who hopes he would be able to kill babies for God if he was placed in the right situation.

I hope I would serve God and agree that that is a rare quality.

There you go. You "hope" you would be willing to murder your own son if God says so.

No, I would never hope to murder and God would never ask me to.

Gee, what a nice guy

I trust in God. If God says something is right, I hope I will trust him that it is.

Maybe not, but you "hope" you would be able to do it if God wanted you to. Trying to generate sympathy for your past will not excuse your despicable lack of moral fibre in the present.

I'm showing you I'm not the monster you claim. I hope to serve God. That's it.

You feel "anger" toward me? Funny, you spent quite a bit of time pretending that none of this bothers you.

When did I ever say it doesn't bother me?

What have I done so far to make you angry? Insulted you? Sorry, but if being accused of immorality for condoning baby-killing is an insult, then you deserve it. On the other hand, if you genuinely think there's nothing wrong with God-sanctioned baby-killing, then why would you take offense that I keep calling you to task on it?

You call it murder. You attack God. You lie about me. These things all make me angry because they are wrong.

That's the difference between me and you: I would never praise a mass-murderer.

I don't think that's the difference as I don't praise a murderer.

Or perhaps I should humour your sick values and call him a "mass-righteous-killer-of-sinners-and-sinners-babies" instead, eh?

It's your choice, you life, your afterlife. I'll be praying for you.

Jonathan · Post by **Jonathan** » 2003-04-19 04:32am

Cthulhu-chan wrote:The fact that you state you would kill your own child at god's behest just shows how morally bankrupt you are. Using Abraham as an example is the worst thing you could do, since ol' Abe was quite the loyal little sheep. Yet when god, for no stated reason, demands his son's life, he does it (almost). That god was testing Abe makes it all the worse! He wanted to make sure Abe was willing to whatever he said, no matter how reprehensible, for little or no reason! That's what morally bankrupt means! That Abe even considered the order at all shows how poor a grasp of right and wrong he had. And god is once again shown to be an immoral, sadistic prick who gets his jollies off tourturing the mortal rubes.

What makes your moral system better? How is it more valid? If God was a sadistic prick as you claim, why die on the cross for our sakes? Why command us to love one another?

Jonathan · Post by **Jonathan** » 2003-04-19 04:40am

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:
I said it is right to obey God.
Therefore if God says to kill in infant, killing it is the right thing to do. Sorry, you can't dodge that point- not in an authoritarian morality like yours.

As I've already pointed out, it is right to obey God, but I don't believe God would command that now that we are under Grace. If he had done so while under Law, then it would have been right for me to obey him. My position on this has been clear throughout. How is it dodging the point?

[

Your not Omniscient, you do not know what God will or will not do. (If he does exist).

I know certain things about him and can deduce whether certain commands would fall within those he would issue. For instance, I can rule out him asking me to worship the devil.

I answered it for him. However, I think I'll clarify it a bit more. Your moral code is based upon the Holy Bible... a book for which there is no evidence to support the theory that it was written under the guidence of God.

Actually, there's a fair bit of evidence that the Gospels are reliable.

Furthermore the only justification that "God" could give for his moral code (if he does indeed exist) is "because I said so".

My morality (and I think Mike's, but I don't presume to say for sure) is logically derived from t he nature of man, its fundamental position is that life is good and man should develop rules to maintain it a soceity of fellow men.

What does logic have to do with morality? You've decided that because something is logical, it must be morally right, but why do you consider this premise to be correct? How do you know what is ultimately good for society? If two people disagree about what is right, who do you resolve the dispute? At the end of the day, it comes back to 'because I say so'.

Biblical morality stems out of God's nature - be 'perfect, therefore, as your Heavenly Father is perfect.' It isn't 'because I say', but rather 'because I am'. If God exists, then he created all of us, so the morality of this universe will stem naturally from him and his nature. If God exists, he is by definition moral. And, at the end of the day, he's the one judging, so if you disagree with his morals, you've got a problem.

Jonathan · Post by **Jonathan** » 2003-04-19 04:44am

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:Yet he routinely commanded people to kill and the justification for the actions was that he commanded it. So that means that God either dosen't take the Ten Commandments seriously, or that hes a hypocrit- take your pick.

False dilemma. Killing is not the same as murdering.

What you know about God is comes from God. Did it ever occur to you that he might change his mind?

'I am the Lord, I changeth not.'

His name is IAM i.e. he is always the same. No change. Unless he's lying, in which case we're all in trouble anyway, because you can't possibly know what is right, whereas if he's telling the truth, you can know, and there is a chance for salvation.

That he might not have told you everything?
He's told me everything I need to know for this life, to gain salvation, to evangelise, the glorify him.

That me might have lied to you? I repeat you're not omniscient, you cannot know what God will or will not ask of you. (Assuming he exists).

Quite frankly, if God lies to you, there's a not a lot you can do and you're in trouble. Going on the evidence of the Gospels though, I'd say he's pretty honest.

Cthulhu-chan · Post by **Cthulhu-chan** » 2003-04-19 05:10am

Jonathan wrote:What makes your moral system better?

The fact that I don't rely on an outside authority figure for my morals?
That I would not kill unless in self defense, or ordered by my government? Even then, if I were ordered to kill non-combatants, i would refuse.

How is it more valid?

You obey god because otherwise he'll toss you in a lake of fire for the rest of eternity. Or conversely, you obey god because you'll get to live forever in heaven. I follow my morals because it's, well, it's just the right thing to do. You shouldn't have ulteriour motives for doing the right thing. But, if you like, moral people are trusted and respected more.

If God was a sadistic prick as you claim, why die on the cross for our sakes?

The crucifixion was a goddamn cop-out. "Oops! I fucked up! No one could possibly live up to my impossible (and quite frankly hypocritical) standards. I know, I'll sacrifice myself to myself to appease myself for my own fuckups! I'll tell everybody it's their fault I had to do this in the first place, but now they're off the hook! Well, so long as they keep stroking my ego..."

Why command us to love one another?

Why command us to not work on sunday/saturday/whatever?
Why command us to not masturbate? (a debatable interpretation of scripture...)
Why command us to do anything since he "gave" us free will? Should we not exercise that "gift"?

Cthulhu-chan · Post by **Cthulhu-chan** » 2003-04-19 05:13am

Oh jesus-goddamn-christ, this is priceless:

Quite frankly, if God lies to you, there's a not a lot you can do and you're in trouble. Going on the evidence of the Gospels though, I'd say he's pretty honest.

You have never truly read the bible, then. Thy ignorance is plain upon thy face.

BlkbrryTheGreat · Post by **BlkbrryTheGreat** » 2003-04-19 05:27am

[quote
BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:
Yet he routinely commanded people to kill and the justification for the actions was that he commanded it. So that means that God either dosen't take the Ten Commandments seriously, or that hes a hypocrit- take your pick. [/quote]

False dilemma. Killing is not the same as murdering.

Bullshit, the Commandment says "Thou Shalt not Kill". Or were you saying that the Deaths in the Old Testament are absolved because they were murders and not killings? If thats the case then your even more of a monster then I orginally thought. Regardless, you've admitted that you would kill if you thought God commanded you to; which qualifies you as a monster in my book.

'I am the Lord, I changeth not.'

His name is IAM i.e. he is always the same. No change. Unless he's lying, in which case we're all in trouble anyway, because you can't possibly know what is right, whereas if he's telling the truth, you can know, and there is a chance for salvation.

He's told me everything I need to know for this life, to gain salvation, to evangelise, the glorify him.

So you dont know if hes lying or telling the truth.... Hows it feel knowing that your entire life could be a lie?

Going on the evidence of the Gospels though, I'd say he's pretty honest.

Which would be nothing more then what he choses to tell you, again you have no way of knowing whether or not hes lying to you.
As a matter of fact since the source for you entire belief system is the Bible you have no way of knowing if that belief system is true.

After my last post I read the debate you had vs Mike on his creationism page... and I realized that I haven't pointed out anything to you that hasn't been pointed out before (probably repeatedly). I'm not going to waste my breath on you anymore, your impervious to reason and dismiss evidence as a requirement for accepting arguments as valid. Quite frankly Johanathan, you are a disgusting remenant of the Dark Ages; I fear for the world should your type ever come to power again.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2003-04-19 09:02am

May i ask you if you would kill a baby hitler? If so, why, if not, why?

I think i should pyut my views forward for a moment here... the god of abraham, if it's the same one all the way through, seems to have EXTREME mood swings over the ages, extreme sociopathic tendencies, and the guy just cant stand the sight of foreskin.

All of which lead me to believe that should such a being exist, it is clearly unstable and should be ignored in the interests of hedonism and empathy. That's all mankind really needs.

Jonathan · Post by **Jonathan** » 2003-04-19 09:43am

Cthulhu-chan wrote:The fact that I don't rely on an outside authority figure for my morals?

Why does that make it better?

That I would not kill unless in self defense, or ordered by my government? Even then, if I were ordered to kill non-combatants, i would refuse.

And i don't believe God would ask such a thing in an age of Grace.

You obey god because otherwise he'll toss you in a lake of fire for the rest of eternity. Or conversely, you obey god because you'll get to live forever in heaven. I follow my morals because it's, well, it's just the right thing to do. You shouldn't have ulteriour motives for doing the right thing. But, if you like, moral people are trusted and respected more.

Why do you make that assumption about my reasons for doing good? I try to obey God's commands because I believe it to be the right thing to do.

The crucifixion was a goddamn cop-out.

Yeah, self-sacrifice is a real cop-out.

"Oops! I fucked up!

No, that would be us.

No one could possibly live up to my impossible (and quite frankly hypocritical) standards./quote]

Nothing hypocritical about them. God is not man. He's a fair bit more important than us and created us, which is why the rules are different. He deserves worship, we don't.

know, I'll sacrifice myself to myself to appease myself for my own fuckups!
Actually, it's to pay for our mistakes.

I'll tell everybody it's their fault I had to do this in the first place, but now they're off the hook! Well, so long as they keep stroking my ego..."
You're only off the hook if you ask for forgiveness, which most people don't do.

Why command us to love one another?
Why command us to not work on sunday/saturday/whatever?
Because a day of rest is good for us and it makes sure that we're setting aside time to worship him.

Why command us to not masturbate? (a debatable interpretation of scripture...)
Because sex is intended for inside of marraige.

Why command us to do anything since he "gave" us free will? Should we not exercise that "gift"?

You should exercise it. That doesn't mean that every choice you make is right. Free will does not mean the freedom to do what you lie without consequence., it simply means the freedom to make a choice. There are moral choices and immoral choices. He tells us which are which.

And you never answered my question.

Jonathan · Post by **Jonathan** » 2003-04-19 09:45am

Cthulhu-chan wrote:Oh jesus-goddamn-christ, this is priceless:

Quite frankly, if God lies to you, there's a not a lot you can do and you're in trouble. Going on the evidence of the Gospels though, I'd say he's pretty honest.
You have never truly read the bible, then. Thy ignorance is plain upon thy face.

Well, there's a devastating argument.

Rather than making ill-founded and incorrect accusations, why don't you make some sort of point that can be talked about? This is one of the many reasons I am cynical of places like this.

Jonathan · Post by **Jonathan** » 2003-04-19 09:51am

BlkbrryTheGreat wrote:Bullshit, the Commandment says "Thou Shalt not Kill". Or were you saying that the Deaths in the Old Testament are absolved because they were murders and not killings? If thats the case then your even more of a monster then I orginally thought. Regardless, you've admitted that you would kill if you thought God commanded you to; which qualifies you as a monster in my book.

Your book doesn't matter. And the commandment says 'Do not murder', not 'Do no kill.' I've repeatedly pointed this out and said that the killing in the OT was not wrong beause it wasn't murder. Please pay attention.

So you dont know if hes lying or telling the truth.... Hows it feel knowing that your entire life could be a lie?

Actually, I'm pretty certain he's telling the truth and it feels great. How does it feel making all your beliefs and morals up, so you only have to believe what's comfortable to you?

Which would be nothing more then what he choses to tell you, again you have no way of knowing whether or not hes lying to you.
As a matter of fact since the source for you entire belief system is the Bible you have no way of knowing if that belief system is true.

It's called trusting in God. I have ne reason to think he would lie. Quite frankly, if an almighty being wants worship, I don't think he's going to lie about the way he wants it.

After my last post I read the debate you had vs Mike on his creationism page... and I realized that I haven't pointed out anything to you that hasn't been pointed out before (probably repeatedly). I'm not going to waste my breath on you anymore, your impervious to reason

Really? Because I believe something different to you?

and dismiss evidence as a requirement for accepting arguments as valid.

Uh huh. And when did I do that? Didn't I ask you for the evidence that you belief system was any more valid? And still haven't received any?

Quite frankly Johanathan, you are a disgusting remenant of the Dark Ages; I fear for the world should your type ever come to power again.

Yes, it's terrible that I talk about love being the greatest thing in the world and that all men should make the love of God and the love of their fellow men their priority. That kind of evil needs wiped out doesn't it?

Jonathan · Post by **Jonathan** » 2003-04-19 09:55am

Rye wrote:May i ask you if you would kill a baby hitler? If so, why, if not, why?

It's not my place to judge and hand out death sentences. It's God's. I'm curious, would you? If not, why are you asking? If so, then why is killing any baby any worse if all sin is regarded as the same in God's eyes?

I think i should pyut my views forward for a moment here... the god of abraham, if it's the same one all the way through, seems to have EXTREME mood swings over the ages,

Can't say I've noticed any of that.

extreme sociopathic tendencies,

Not in the slightest. Just an intense, righteous hatred of sin.

and the guy just cant stand the sight of foreskin.

That was to mark the Jews out as a chosen people. Not important now. Romans 2:17-29 talks about this.

All of which lead me to believe that should such a being exist, it is clearly unstable and should be ignored in the interests of hedonism and empathy. That's all mankind really needs.

All sinful desires we feel are weak imitations of the Godly desires we feel. There is greater pleasure to be gained in serving God, than in turning from him. And if God exists, don't you think turning your back on him would be a tad stupid?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-04-19 11:47am

Jonathan, you really don't get it, do you? If someone has a moral code, then he has an internal set of values. He knows what is right and wrong. In your case, you do NOT have a moral code. Instead, you would gladly do ANYTHING you think God wanted you to: murder babies, kill your own child, etc., because your morality is based on obedience to authority rather than ethics. As the Nazis said at Nuremberg, you would "just follow orders".

THAT is why I say you have no moral code. It's not even a matter of my moral code being better than yours; you have no moral code at all. All you have is blind obedience to authority, no matter what that authority may say. For you, any cruelty, any violence, any evil act is OK if the authority says so. That is not a moral code.

So yes, my moral code is superior to yours. You can bullshit all you like, cite the Bible all you like, defend God's morality by saying that he tells us to love one another (when he's not busy telling us to kill one another) or died for our sins (when he's not busy torturing us for eternity for our sins), but ultimately, YOU have still demonstrated that YOU have no morality at all.

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi · Post by **Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi** » 2003-04-19 01:01pm

Also, I have a question for Johnathan: If God told you to jump off a cliff, would you do it?

Cthulhu-chan · Post by **Cthulhu-chan** » 2003-04-19 01:17pm

We can only hope so...

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2003-04-19 01:47pm

Well I think lord wong is taking out the trash quite well....If you want me to join in, just let me know.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2003-04-19 01:50pm

If god told you to kill the entire population of a city(assuming you could) accept for the virgin girls, who he commanded you to rape, and take as your slaves, would you do it?

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2003-04-19 02:32pm

Okay, if you had access to nuclear weapons, would you leave one in an Al Qaeda training camp?

The inaction which leads to much pain and suffering counts as your fault, in my book, which is what god likes to do (setting adam and eve up for the fall, watching them do it, then blaming them, even though they had no knowledge of what was wrong) , then righteously rain down pain on all and sundry.

God it seems does not take responsibility, or at least, does not do so until jesus comes round and dies in a horrific way for all our sins that he let happen in the first place. Then we're supposed to be thankful that he finally got his arse in gear, and sent some poor dude to die.

So what happened before jesus? I've heard answers for this as "they made animal sacrifices to appease God" and "Jesus was God overcoming death to absolve us of our sins", Jesus was a human sacrifice.

Therefore, as this and several animal sacrifices, and almost human sacrifices, and the righteous killing of the many, all of this behaviour, seen as righteous by God, seems a waste and pain oriented to me. I also don't see what an all loving being would be doing making a hell for people to go to anyway, or why he sent jesus to die for us(if he is as powerful as he claims to be, why not wipe the slate clean in some other none painful way?).

Another point i would like to make is this: if god is so powerful, can he overcome logic?

If so, could he create a free willed species that always choose the right way, and by doing so, none of them go to hell?

If it is possible for him to do those things, why didn't he? The only answers i can think of are either a)he isnt all loving, or b)he isnt all powerful. Or both.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-04-19 05:32pm

There's no point arguing with Jonathan. We are talking about a bona-fide sociopath who thinks it would be perfectly acceptable to slaughter babies if God commands him to.

Queeb Salaron · Post by **Queeb Salaron** » 2003-04-19 08:16pm

::Sighs:: You all realize we're debating a point that would ultimately tear Christianity to shreds, right?

Christianity exists because people believe that God is good (which I think is true, post-OT; He promised the world in his covenant with Noah that he'd never take out entire civilizations again. During the OT, he was a bastard). If God suddenly was NOT good, (also debatable,) there would be a great disbursement of the Church. Christianity would become universally despicable, and Christians and Jews would become the scum of the earth, provided they stayed faithful.

But what we have to realize is that GOD DOESN'T SAY ANYTHING ANYMORE! The only voice that God has comes from the Vatican. So if the POPE were to come out and say that killing is OK, then there would be a lot of angry Catholics, because obviously the Pope is not representing the Will of God as demonstrated in the New Testament. In fact, the Pope would probably be forced to step down so another new pope could take his place, simply because of the outrageousness of the sin. In short, NO Christian in his right mind could accept a dictum that tells the faithful to kill babies. Such a demand would cause a revolt the likes of which this world has never seen.

Cthulhu-chan · Post by **Cthulhu-chan** » 2003-04-20 03:17pm

Well of course god doesn't say anything anymore. Just like Zeus, Odin, Brahmin, etc, don't speak to their faithful anymore.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2003-04-20 03:22pm

Maybe there was a horrible virus on godworld? Wiped them out?