an odd debate I had with elminster

[Enforcer Talen]

elminster: http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... highlight=

I have him on msn, so we chatted. Im not sure this is a debate - he changes his mind a lot. but, here you are.

Enforcer Talen says:
hola
Enforcer Talen says:
Truly, God sets impossible standards to live down to, although some, such as the medieval Crusaders and Inquisitioners, tried their damndest.
Enforcer Talen says:
my new sig
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
kool
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
makes sense
Enforcer Talen says:
yep
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
right now i am debating (to myself) a possible religion change
Enforcer Talen says:
from what to what
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
christian to something else
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
not too sure
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
yet
Enforcer Talen says:
ah
Enforcer Talen says:
you beleive in literal interpretation?
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
a who what in a how how?
Enforcer Talen says:
do you read the bible literally
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
yup
Enforcer Talen says:
christian fundamentalism/
Enforcer Talen says:
ok, so 7 days
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
fundawhatilism
Enforcer Talen says:
a liteal 164 hrs?
Enforcer Talen says:
fundamentalism
Enforcer Talen says:
literally
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
whats the hell is fundamentalism
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
im slow on the uptake today
Enforcer Talen says:
fundamentalism is taking your religon literally
Enforcer Talen says:
even if it appears unlikely in the modern world
Enforcer Talen says:
miracles and the like
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
mmmk
Enforcer Talen says:
so, 7 days for the creation of the world?
Enforcer Talen says:
if yes/then fundy
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
i believe in one god one all powerful god that does take part in our life
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
but i feel the catholic church has warped views
Enforcer Talen says:
ignore the church for the moment
Enforcer Talen says:
you believe in the bible
Enforcer Talen says:
every word
Enforcer Talen says:
literally?
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
i believe over the centuries the religion has fallen into dissary
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
no
Enforcer Talen says:
what then
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
i belive in some parts of the bible
Enforcer Talen says:
who decides what parts?
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
no clue
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
but the bible has been re written for centuries
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
and a lot of the views seem warped
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
and (apparently) some high ranking bishops found a manuscript by a disicple (they think it was by one) and it had words in it that....umm.....didnt agree with the catholics views
Enforcer Talen says:
how so
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
one sec
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
umm
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
its hard to explain
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
the way the mass goes and all
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
and lots of the "lessons" in the bible
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
and a lot of the priests are corrupt (sexually)
Enforcer Talen says:
do you or do you not beleive christ is real, living, and the savior of the world
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
yes to some extent
Enforcer Talen says:
why
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
why do i or why dont i?
Enforcer Talen says:
the first
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
because i believe that things happen and those things arent nessecarily what they seem
Enforcer Talen says:
that mean christ have to be the one doing it?
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
well I belive god usually is
Enforcer Talen says:
deist, as opposed to christian?
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
deist?
Enforcer Talen says:
believes a god exists
Enforcer Talen says:
not necessarily the christian one
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
pretty much
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
but i also need a religion though
Enforcer Talen says:
why
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
something to believe in
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
something to have a goal for
Enforcer Talen says:
mankind is not enough?
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
yes it is
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
but otherwise ill get depressed thinking about the afterlife
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
a religion will get rid of those doubts
Enforcer Talen says:
think happy thots?
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
and christianity did for me when i was young
Enforcer Talen says:
and as you are no longer young. .
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
but now im getting older and rethinking my religion
Enforcer Talen says:
ok. lets look a mark 7:27.
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
that passage says what now?
Enforcer Talen says:
you *do* have a bible, yes?
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
not here
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
im at roys
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
*I* dont have a bible
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
my family does
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
i have been meditating on these religious doubts lately
Enforcer Talen says:
-looks for online bible-
Enforcer Talen says:
http://etext.virginia.edu/rsv.browse.html
Enforcer Talen says:
mark 7:27
Enforcer Talen says:
27: And he said to her, "Let the children first be fed, for it is not right to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs."
Enforcer Talen says:
in this feature
Enforcer Talen says:
25: But immediately a woman, whose little daughter was possessed by an unclean spirit, heard of him, and came and fell down at his feet.
26: Now the woman was a Greek, a Syrophoeni'cian by birth. And she begged him to cast the demon out of her daughter.

Enforcer Talen says:
27: And he said to her, "Let the children first be fed, for it is not right to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs."
28: But she answered him, "Yes, Lord; yet even the dogs under the table eat the children's crumbs."

¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
36: And he charged them to tell no one; but the more he charged them, the more zealously they proclaimed it.
Enforcer Talen says:
according to this, jesus had some qualms over helping some people
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
and does god ask you to worship him with your whole essence?
Enforcer Talen says:
but of course he does
Enforcer Talen says:
even if he does not
Enforcer Talen says:
do you think you count in the same category as hebrew?
Enforcer Talen says:
jesus apparently counts greeks as dogs
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
see this is why im doubting christianity
Enforcer Talen says:
and following that assumption, do you think you will gain salvation?
Enforcer Talen says:
. . .maybe? heh
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
hmmm
Enforcer Talen says:
actually, why is gods forgiveness necessary at all
Enforcer Talen says:
in your own words
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
it isnt
Enforcer Talen says:
why
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
but it helps people forgive themselves
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
so they assume that god will always forgive
Enforcer Talen says:
oh? god is neccessary to forgive themselves?
Enforcer Talen says:
god always forgives?
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
which he probably would if he loves us enough
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
maybe not
Enforcer Talen says:
he loves us?
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
probably does
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
thats a quality of love is it not?
Enforcer Talen says:
who does he forgive
Enforcer Talen says:
who does he not?
Enforcer Talen says:
why is he necessary for someone's conscience?
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
because people have a hard time forgiving themselves
Enforcer Talen says:
answer the other questions
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
he would forgive those he truly loves
Enforcer Talen says:
oh? he doesnt love all people
Enforcer Talen says:
?
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
i wouldnt know
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
if he is perfect he would
Enforcer Talen says:
I thot, according to christianity, he was the epitome of perfection?
Enforcer Talen says:
he is the one, after all, we are to emulate
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
A deep, tender, ineffable feeling of affection and solicitude toward a person, such as that arising from kinship, recognition of attractive qualities, or a sense of underlying oneness.
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
---love
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
or a sense of underlying oneness.

Enforcer Talen says:
and does that hold towards us?
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
i would assume so if he loves us
Enforcer Talen says:
say again?
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
if god loves us (A deep, tender, ineffable feeling of affection and solicitude toward a person, such as that arising from kinship, recognition of attractive qualities, or a sense of underlying oneness.) that that would mean he feels akin with us?

¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
a sense of underlying oneness.
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
God
A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.
The force, effect, or a manifestation or aspect of this being.
A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality.
An image of a supernatural being; an idol.
One that is worshiped, idealized, or followed: Money was their god.
A very handsome man.
A powerful ruler or despot.
Enforcer Talen says:
what do you believe
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality.

¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
maybe not male
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
im not sure
Enforcer Talen says:
its rather hard to have a debate if you change your views with your mood
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
mmm??
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
when have my views changed?
Enforcer Talen says:
by being "not sure", your views are rather hard to pin down
Enforcer Talen says:
are you a christian? do you believe god loves you?
Enforcer Talen says:
loves all?
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
hence my religion "crisis" as it were
Enforcer Talen says:
mm. if you look to revelation, you'll note god only protects those who mindlessly follow him
Enforcer Talen says:
and annhilates those who do not
Enforcer Talen says:
loves humanity? perhaps not
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
hence the religion crisis
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
ive been thinking
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
i dont mindlessly follow christianity
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
but i pray to god at night
Enforcer Talen says:
ah. god hates you then
Enforcer Talen says:
mindlessness is key
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
and i believe he still loves me for i can feel a sense while praying a sense of love maybe my subconcious is making up that sense but ....
Enforcer Talen says:
why would he love you? according to the bible, being born is enough cause to die
Enforcer Talen says:
and, not just die, but suffer damnation for eternity
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
but you are talking of the christian god
Enforcer Talen says:
yes
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
what if there was a different god like the one i believe in
Enforcer Talen says:
then your a deist
Enforcer Talen says:
and we have a different argument
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
but i want a religion
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
i am reading on buddasim lately
Enforcer Talen says:
why is one neccessary?
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
Buddhism is also a belief system which is tolerant of all other beliefs or religions. Buddhism agrees with the moral teachings of other religions but Buddhism goes further by providing a long term purpose within our existence, through wisdom and true understanding. Real Buddhism is very tolerant and not concerned with labels like 'Christian', 'Moslem', 'Hindu' or 'Buddhist'; that is why there have never been any wars fought in the name of Buddhism. That is why Buddhists do not preach and try to convert, only explain if an explanation is sought
Enforcer Talen says:
and is a religion to be tossed aside when you dont need one?
Enforcer Talen says:
moral teachings?
Enforcer Talen says:
define moral teaching
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
undefinable to me
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
everybody strives to do "good"
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
if not what everyone else thinks is good
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
not many try to be "evil"
Enforcer Talen says:
moral majority?
Enforcer Talen says:
slavery was defined as moral, not long aog
Enforcer Talen says:
*ago
Enforcer Talen says:
are you a christian or a deist?
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
exactly hence the undefinablity
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
none as far as im concerned
Enforcer Talen says:
?
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
i believe in god not the christian god i believe that christians had the right idea but lost the path over the centuries and therefore the religous chrisis i dont want to be deist either because religion (used to) calms me and gives me a base to build my life on
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
lately ive meditated on this inn search on answers
Enforcer Talen says:
so you believe there is a vast omnipotent Power somewhere?
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
yes
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
i guess so
Enforcer Talen says:
but without the christian trappings?
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
heres my definition for morals ( a bit late ) the code you live your life by
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
yesd
Enforcer Talen says:
do you believe this diety is good?
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
i am not sure but i mostly beleive in one evil and one good one
Enforcer Talen says:
ah
Enforcer Talen says:
why does the good one let the evil survivE?
¿•¬ JessE ¬•¿ says:
well ill brb

[Utsanomiko]

This right here:

i believe in god not the christian god i believe that christians had the right idea but lost the path over the centuries and therefore the religous chrisis i dont want to be deist either because religion (used to) calms me and gives me a base to build my life on

This is one thing that pisses me of about the masses and their 'faith is important' bullshit. I mean serriously, what the fuck? Other than because he's a spineless dumbshit, Why does he absoluetly need religion? Does he not realize their might have been somehting messed-up with the original biblical script? Why even bother with this damn angsty 'crisis' shit? Heaven for-fucking-bid anyone feels fine or content without a magic-pixie story to use as a security blanket, I guess.

[Alan Bolte]

Other than because he's a spineless dumbshit, Why does he absoluetly need religion? ... Heaven for-fucking-bid anyone feels fine or content without a magic-pixie story to use as a security blanket, I guess.

I find that anyone I speak to who is reasonably intelligent and rational eventually admits that this is all it is for them. They are spineless and need a magic-pixie story. My gf was raised in a mostly athiest house-hold (mostly would take a little while to explain) and was basicly agnostic until she got old enough to really be able to think about these things. After a while, she gravitated to Wicca. Not that she ever was particularly hard-core about it. She just honestly needs her magic pixies.

[Jonathan]

Other than because he's a spineless dumbshit, Why does he absoluetly need religion? ... Heaven for-fucking-bid anyone feels fine or content without a magic-pixie story to use as a security blanket, I guess.

I find that anyone I speak to who is reasonably intelligent and rational eventually admits that this is all it is for them. They are spineless and need a magic-pixie story. My gf was raised in a mostly athiest house-hold (mostly would take a little while to explain) and was basicly agnostic until she got old enough to really be able to think about these things. After a while, she gravitated to Wicca. Not that she ever was particularly hard-core about it. She just honestly needs her magic pixies.

The arrogance of atheists never ceases to amaze me. Did you ever consider that people believe in something because they genuinely believe it, rather than because they're inferior, spineless wimps?

[Utsanomiko]

The arrogance of atheists never ceases to amaze me. Did you ever consider that people believe in something because they genuinely believe it, rather than because they're inferior, spineless wimps?

Yes. I honestly used to think that as a possibility.

But constantly meeting people like you proved me wrong.