Here is a truncated version of what I know about B5's First Ones, with a bit of conjecture thrown in:
Lorien's race are the oldest in this galaxy, and formed out of the random energy of the universe.
The Triad came later, in a similar fashion. Though non-coporeal, they have the ability to create starships in order to interact with the physical universe (the 3-pronged ship in "Into the Fire").
The Shadows are the oldest race in this galaxy to have evolved from lower life forms. They have not used their "real" warships for millions of years. Apparently the standard Shadow warships we see on the series (all piloted by Younger Race members) are their equivalent of poaching vans.
The Walkers of Sigma 957 are slightly younger than the Shadows, but progressed more quickly. They have mapped hyperspace as well as higher dimensions. They have made contact with the Thirdspace Aliens, and have since kept their distance. They are noted for their colossal Christmas tree-style starships. They are so advanced that they could use sensors and communication devices as weapons of mass destruction.
The Vorlons ... yes. Keep in mind that they are not just beings of "pure" light, but have a physical component (quasi-crystalline, according to JMS, which would explain why they are affected by florazine).
The Mindriders are "beings of pure thought" that can hitch rides in the minds of other beings. They can also create solid starships with their thoughts - perhaps like the Triad, but less sohisticated and far more numerous. One of their warships looks like a cross between Devil's Tower and a starfish. It is my theory that the being that possessed Sheridan in "Knives" was a Mindrider. Any thoughts?
The Torvalus are among the younger and less sophisticated of the First Ones. They are (mostly?) flesh and blood, resembling giant centipedes. They love gambling, on every concieveable subject. Their warship resembles a towering dark blade.
The Kirishiac are the youngest of the First Ones. They are also flesh and blood - massive bipeds that evolved on a high-gravity planet. One of their warships resembles a stone globe orbited by detached thrusters. Despite their relative youth and inexperience, they were numerous and aggressive enough to war with most of the other First Ones millions of years ago.
The Thirdspace Aliens ("First Ones" of another universe) were powerful enough to freak out the Vorlons, perhaps because of their technology or mind powers, or both. One would presume that, like the Younger Races, the Vorlons were able to defeat the "few" Thirdspace Aliens that came through the gate by outnumbering them, although the ratio would have been less extreme. Nontheless, the Vorlon recording inside Lyta implied that the Aliens, in full force, would be a threat to the entire universe.
The Hand, whose lowly servants featured in Legends of the Rangers, were supposedly so far above the Shadows that they regarded the latter as insects. Perhaps it took Lorien, the Triad and / or the Walkers to drive them out of the universe. I would like to propose a wild theory that the Hand were a seperatist faction of Walkers - perhaps warmongers among the pacifist majority.
I am also curious about the "magical" events regarding the Brakiri "Day of the Dead". Did the Brakiri make an ancient deal with one of the more powerful First One races? Remember, the part of Babylon 5 that was behind the energy field was supposedly 200 million light years away. That would be a fiar stretch for even the Shadows and Vorlons.
Does anyone (particularly those who have read the Agents of Gaming books) have any more relevent information?
The First Ones
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From the episode where they leave the cradle for the last time, I have always thought that humans eventually evolved into Vorlon. That would add a really cool additional layer of depth to the story (as if it needed more).
"Sometimes I think you WANT us to fail." "Shut up, just shut up!" -Two Guys from Kabul
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"one soler flar can vapririze the planit or malt the nickl in lass than millasacit" -Bagara1000
"Happiness is just a Flaming Moe away."
Here's some more indepth info on the First Ones that Rathark mentioned here... mainly because i'm bored :p
Lorien is the ultimate man, not even the Triad would think of going up against him. He is capable of making anything he wishes with his mind as the Triad do (the ship that he took Sheridan on from Z'ha'Dum to B5 was created by him). He's THE First One, and is billions of years old.
The Triad are the second oldest race, only second to Lorien. They were born in space and are extremely powerful telekinetics, so powerful that they view the universe not in the normal way that you and i do, but instead they are able to see the streams which bind the universe together (or so i have heard). Using their telekinetic abilities, they are able to rearrange these strings to create anything they wish with their minds. Their telekinetic abilities also double as telepathic abilities, as they are able to send messages into the brain of whoever they want in a similar way that telepaths are able to send messages to another person's mind. The Triad were originally 3 beings, one of them revelled in the Aspect of Chaos (like the Shadows), another was the ultimate artist and was the Aspect of Order, another was in the middle, he being the Aspect of Neutrality. Throughout the eons, they lived in their seperate thirds of the galaxy looking for something that they were missing, until finally they figured out that what they were missing were themselves. They later joined and became the Triad (each individual being called a Tri).
What Rathark said is pretty much self explanitory for the Shadows. One point that should be noted about current Shadow warships in comparison to their older, more powerful vessels that they used millions of years ago. The weapons mounted on one of their current foot soldiers are capable of bringing down an entire Shadow vessel, just imagine an entire army of them
The Walkers are the ultimate scientists and like to keep detailed records on everything they encounter, so many records infact that they hallowed out Sigma 957 to become a repository of their knowledge. The First Dimension that the Walkers encountered wasn't Hyperspace, but it was Thirdspace in which they secretly mapped the entire Thirdspace universe without being destroyed by Thirdspace in return. The Walkers, if i remember correctly had extremely dull senses before they evolved into a hyper-evolved species, which is one of the reasons that they developed technology at a very fast pace compared to other First Ones. They also have very strong telekinetic abilities which IIRC they use to contruct their vessels. The Walkers also documented the exact momment when they began to evolve into beyond their physical bodies, and this is the reason why they had an extremely low death rate for the transition compared to other First Ones (their death rate was somewhere around 15% compared to 99% for other First Ones). These records was also one of the reasons that led to the Kirishiac War.
The Vorlons are the creators of the hyperspace jump gate network currently in use by the younger races, the reasons behind this being one of the reasons that eventually led to the Kirishiac War. Since the Kirishiac were the last of the First Ones to develop hyperspace travel capability and were extremely aggressive and went to war with the First Ones. They thought that if they essentially took an entire page off from the technological tech-tree from the younger races that this threat would no longer loom over the horizon. Since the technical ability to travel hyperspace and discover it on one's on is CONSIDERABLY more than just being able to use it, the other First Ones would basically guarrantee themselves the trouble of watching the developing younger races from getting too much power. The Vorlons seeded the entire galaxy with the network of jump gates, gates which species like the Abbai, Minbari, Centauri ect later found and reversed engineered the technology and entered hyperspace.
The Mindriders evolved into beings like the Triad extremely early in their evolution, so early infact that they do not consider themselves the same species as their predecessors. The Mindriders, as their name implies, have extremely powerful telepathic abilities - stronger than those of even the Vorlons and the Shadows who are both P15+ telepaths. The Mindriders basically live through other races, hiding themselves in many younger races and living through their expiriences, what they go through in an attempt to find what they are missing in their now immortal lives. To see if there is another level of transcendence that they have yet to reach.
Their vessels are basically a shell for their bodies and do not carry any conventional weapon systems, instead, the 'weapons' and 'defenses' of their ships are mental projections of their thoughts. They focus their aggressive tendencies into strong pulse like weapons, and are also capable of emmitting Thought Shields around their ships with their minds which are extremely powerful.
The Torvalus Speculators are the First Ones who really like to have fun IMO. They have yet to transcend into beings of light, but are immortal like other First Ones. Since they became so bored with their immortal existenses, they basically gamble on everything to entertain themselves. Whether it be a small event, or something that lasts through millenia - they'll bet on it. So they can keep taps on what they're gambling, they have cloaking technology that makes them undetectable to all sensors, including those of the First Ones.
The Kirishiac are the youngest of the First Ones, the last race to have achieved hyperspace travel by its own. Their homeworld, Kirish, is an EXTREMELY large world with very high gravity. So high infact that the atmosphere is almost liquid, this led to the Kirishiac mastering gravitic technology to even be able to develop spaceflight. The Kirishiac themselves are massive, about 7 meters tall and extremely strong. There are accounts where they went outside their vessels and tore apart enemy vessels with their bare hands. The Kirishiac were also the most warlike of the First Ones, conquering most of the galaxy millions of years ago. When they ran out of room to conquer more space, and the fact that they had not yet evolved into beings of light - they invaded Walker space when they were away mapping out other galaxies and dimensions, they also wanted the Walker records on when they had transcended. Later, they invaded Shadow space when they had entered one of their century long hibernations. The Triad managed to convince the other First Ones that they needed to be stopped and all of them went to war with the Kirishiac. Originally, the Triad only wanted to teach the Kirishiac a lesson, pulling their punches against them, only creating vessels that could match the best that the Kirishiac had (these less 'sophisticated' ships were using singularities as their weapons...) but the other First Ones weren't so kind. The Kirishiac were eventually driven back to their original space, but they refused to surrender. In an effort to teach them a lesson, the Walkers deployed a small fleet of Traveller and Pathfinder vessels (IIRC) around a moon of one of the Kirishiac's worlds, and pulled its moon into hyperspace. The Kirishiac didn't even get a chance to respond, the Walker ships just appearing out of no-where. The Walkers then pulled the moon back into normal space, and put it in a better orbit around the planet, giving the planet a better climate. The Kirishiac surrendered the next day.
Lorien is the ultimate man, not even the Triad would think of going up against him. He is capable of making anything he wishes with his mind as the Triad do (the ship that he took Sheridan on from Z'ha'Dum to B5 was created by him). He's THE First One, and is billions of years old.
The Triad are the second oldest race, only second to Lorien. They were born in space and are extremely powerful telekinetics, so powerful that they view the universe not in the normal way that you and i do, but instead they are able to see the streams which bind the universe together (or so i have heard). Using their telekinetic abilities, they are able to rearrange these strings to create anything they wish with their minds. Their telekinetic abilities also double as telepathic abilities, as they are able to send messages into the brain of whoever they want in a similar way that telepaths are able to send messages to another person's mind. The Triad were originally 3 beings, one of them revelled in the Aspect of Chaos (like the Shadows), another was the ultimate artist and was the Aspect of Order, another was in the middle, he being the Aspect of Neutrality. Throughout the eons, they lived in their seperate thirds of the galaxy looking for something that they were missing, until finally they figured out that what they were missing were themselves. They later joined and became the Triad (each individual being called a Tri).
What Rathark said is pretty much self explanitory for the Shadows. One point that should be noted about current Shadow warships in comparison to their older, more powerful vessels that they used millions of years ago. The weapons mounted on one of their current foot soldiers are capable of bringing down an entire Shadow vessel, just imagine an entire army of them
The Walkers are the ultimate scientists and like to keep detailed records on everything they encounter, so many records infact that they hallowed out Sigma 957 to become a repository of their knowledge. The First Dimension that the Walkers encountered wasn't Hyperspace, but it was Thirdspace in which they secretly mapped the entire Thirdspace universe without being destroyed by Thirdspace in return. The Walkers, if i remember correctly had extremely dull senses before they evolved into a hyper-evolved species, which is one of the reasons that they developed technology at a very fast pace compared to other First Ones. They also have very strong telekinetic abilities which IIRC they use to contruct their vessels. The Walkers also documented the exact momment when they began to evolve into beyond their physical bodies, and this is the reason why they had an extremely low death rate for the transition compared to other First Ones (their death rate was somewhere around 15% compared to 99% for other First Ones). These records was also one of the reasons that led to the Kirishiac War.
The Vorlons are the creators of the hyperspace jump gate network currently in use by the younger races, the reasons behind this being one of the reasons that eventually led to the Kirishiac War. Since the Kirishiac were the last of the First Ones to develop hyperspace travel capability and were extremely aggressive and went to war with the First Ones. They thought that if they essentially took an entire page off from the technological tech-tree from the younger races that this threat would no longer loom over the horizon. Since the technical ability to travel hyperspace and discover it on one's on is CONSIDERABLY more than just being able to use it, the other First Ones would basically guarrantee themselves the trouble of watching the developing younger races from getting too much power. The Vorlons seeded the entire galaxy with the network of jump gates, gates which species like the Abbai, Minbari, Centauri ect later found and reversed engineered the technology and entered hyperspace.
The Mindriders evolved into beings like the Triad extremely early in their evolution, so early infact that they do not consider themselves the same species as their predecessors. The Mindriders, as their name implies, have extremely powerful telepathic abilities - stronger than those of even the Vorlons and the Shadows who are both P15+ telepaths. The Mindriders basically live through other races, hiding themselves in many younger races and living through their expiriences, what they go through in an attempt to find what they are missing in their now immortal lives. To see if there is another level of transcendence that they have yet to reach.
Their vessels are basically a shell for their bodies and do not carry any conventional weapon systems, instead, the 'weapons' and 'defenses' of their ships are mental projections of their thoughts. They focus their aggressive tendencies into strong pulse like weapons, and are also capable of emmitting Thought Shields around their ships with their minds which are extremely powerful.
The Torvalus Speculators are the First Ones who really like to have fun IMO. They have yet to transcend into beings of light, but are immortal like other First Ones. Since they became so bored with their immortal existenses, they basically gamble on everything to entertain themselves. Whether it be a small event, or something that lasts through millenia - they'll bet on it. So they can keep taps on what they're gambling, they have cloaking technology that makes them undetectable to all sensors, including those of the First Ones.
The Kirishiac are the youngest of the First Ones, the last race to have achieved hyperspace travel by its own. Their homeworld, Kirish, is an EXTREMELY large world with very high gravity. So high infact that the atmosphere is almost liquid, this led to the Kirishiac mastering gravitic technology to even be able to develop spaceflight. The Kirishiac themselves are massive, about 7 meters tall and extremely strong. There are accounts where they went outside their vessels and tore apart enemy vessels with their bare hands. The Kirishiac were also the most warlike of the First Ones, conquering most of the galaxy millions of years ago. When they ran out of room to conquer more space, and the fact that they had not yet evolved into beings of light - they invaded Walker space when they were away mapping out other galaxies and dimensions, they also wanted the Walker records on when they had transcended. Later, they invaded Shadow space when they had entered one of their century long hibernations. The Triad managed to convince the other First Ones that they needed to be stopped and all of them went to war with the Kirishiac. Originally, the Triad only wanted to teach the Kirishiac a lesson, pulling their punches against them, only creating vessels that could match the best that the Kirishiac had (these less 'sophisticated' ships were using singularities as their weapons...) but the other First Ones weren't so kind. The Kirishiac were eventually driven back to their original space, but they refused to surrender. In an effort to teach them a lesson, the Walkers deployed a small fleet of Traveller and Pathfinder vessels (IIRC) around a moon of one of the Kirishiac's worlds, and pulled its moon into hyperspace. The Kirishiac didn't even get a chance to respond, the Walker ships just appearing out of no-where. The Walkers then pulled the moon back into normal space, and put it in a better orbit around the planet, giving the planet a better climate. The Kirishiac surrendered the next day.
I always thought all the FO evolved from 'lower beings', after all Ivanova was having that discussion with Lorien, about how wonderfull he must of thought fire was in the begining, and how Lorien admitted that his race can die, through injury or illness. I mean how could energy get sick right?
Once again I am pissed off that JMS said that the Centauri and the Narn don't reach FO status like the the humans and the minbari. I mean why? If it was because they were touched be the Shadows, big fucking deal! The Shadows are FO! When they went on the rampage, it took the combined strength of all the other FO to stop them! And I will point out that he did say that they did not die out, and that they were still around, but why not FO!?!?!?!?
And for anyone who wants to say that the Vorlons said that they are a dying race, big fuckin' deal! By the Vorlon's definition the Shadows are too! IMHO, they were doing pretty well for a dying race! Sorry, it's just that I think that is one of the things that I never understood why JMS said that.
I mean you have to evolve into a FO right? And which of the two guardian FO preached evolution? Why that would be the Shadows thaknyou very much Mr JMS....
Once again I am pissed off that JMS said that the Centauri and the Narn don't reach FO status like the the humans and the minbari. I mean why? If it was because they were touched be the Shadows, big fucking deal! The Shadows are FO! When they went on the rampage, it took the combined strength of all the other FO to stop them! And I will point out that he did say that they did not die out, and that they were still around, but why not FO!?!?!?!?
And for anyone who wants to say that the Vorlons said that they are a dying race, big fuckin' deal! By the Vorlon's definition the Shadows are too! IMHO, they were doing pretty well for a dying race! Sorry, it's just that I think that is one of the things that I never understood why JMS said that.
I mean you have to evolve into a FO right? And which of the two guardian FO preached evolution? Why that would be the Shadows thaknyou very much Mr JMS....
Η ζωή, η ζωή εδω τελειώνει!
"Science is one cold-hearted bitch with a 14" strap-on" - Masuka 'Dexter'
"Angela is not the woman you think she is Gabriel, she's done terrible things"
"So have I, and I'm going to do them all to you." - Sylar to Arthur 'Heroes'
Nephilim: You keep saying IIRC, does this mean that you are getting all of this from some kind of book/reference? Where? What? I must have/know! 
Thanks.
Thanks.Η ζωή, η ζωή εδω τελειώνει!
"Science is one cold-hearted bitch with a 14" strap-on" - Masuka 'Dexter'
"Angela is not the woman you think she is Gabriel, she's done terrible things"
"So have I, and I'm going to do them all to you." - Sylar to Arthur 'Heroes'
IMHO i think it's not that but the fact a race needs a certain mature mind set to become 1st ones, most races destroyed themselves way before they are able to.Posted: Mon Sep 02, 2002 10:24 am Post subject:
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I always thought all the FO evolved from 'lower beings' , after all Ivanova was having that discussion with Lorien, about how wonderfull he must of thought fire was in the begining, and how Lorien admitted that his race can die, through injury or illness. I mean how could energy get sick right?
Once again I am pissed off that JMS said that the Centauri and the Narn don't reach FO status like the the humans and the minbari. I mean why? If it was because they were touched be the Shadows, big fucking deal! The Shadows are FO! When they went on the rampage, it took the combined strength of all the other FO to stop them ! And I will point out that he did say that they did not die out, and that they were still around, but why not FO!?!?!?!?
And for anyone who wants to say that the Vorlons said that they are a dying race, big fuckin' deal! By the Vorlon's definition the Shadows are too! IMHO, they were doing pretty well for a dying race ! Sorry, it's just that I think that is one of the things that I never understood why JMS said that.
I mean you have to evolve into a FO right? And which of the two guardian FO preached evolution? Why that would be the Shadows thaknyou very much Mr JMS....
Crown - all First Ones haven't evolved from lower beings. There are basically two kinds of First Ones, Trascendental First Ones - beings that were already born with all of their abilities that they have now, immortal, ect. And Hyper-evolved First Ones - this category includes all of the other First Ones, including the Kirishiac and the Torvalus, that although they have yet to evolve into beings of light, they are still hyperevolved from their beginnings. Lorien said that his species could die through injury or illness, he was the First One, the others that followed him weren't as he was - in Into the Fire he goes on to explain that others of his species were later born not being naturally immortal, not all of them were energy after he was.
Also, evolving into a being of light IMO shouldn't be regarded as the meaning of being a First One, the true meaning of being a First One is to develop hyperspace capability by oneself without the need to reverse enginneer the technology from anyone else as the Younger Races ALL did in the current era. The last species to do this were the Kirishiac Lords and they ARE First Ones despite the fact that they are fresh and blood like just you and me. Humans and Minbari reached this level, but the Narns and Centauri hadn't by the time of the Sleeping in the Light. Again, what it means to be a First One shouldn't be determined by how much you have evolved, as they are current First Ones from that show that had yet to reach that level, eventhough their races were hundreds of millions years old.
Btw Crown, all of this information is from the AoG Book Wars of the Ancients. There's alot of fluff on the First Ones, even on part is written in the view of one of the Triad. Very interesting read
Also, evolving into a being of light IMO shouldn't be regarded as the meaning of being a First One, the true meaning of being a First One is to develop hyperspace capability by oneself without the need to reverse enginneer the technology from anyone else as the Younger Races ALL did in the current era. The last species to do this were the Kirishiac Lords and they ARE First Ones despite the fact that they are fresh and blood like just you and me. Humans and Minbari reached this level, but the Narns and Centauri hadn't by the time of the Sleeping in the Light. Again, what it means to be a First One shouldn't be determined by how much you have evolved, as they are current First Ones from that show that had yet to reach that level, eventhough their races were hundreds of millions years old.
Btw Crown, all of this information is from the AoG Book Wars of the Ancients. There's alot of fluff on the First Ones, even on part is written in the view of one of the Triad. Very interesting read
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I think that you achieve power enough to be a FO when your race develops the technology to leave the Galaxy.
"Sometimes I think you WANT us to fail." "Shut up, just shut up!" -Two Guys from Kabul
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"one soler flar can vapririze the planit or malt the nickl in lass than millasacit" -Bagara1000
"Happiness is just a Flaming Moe away."
Latinum Star Recipient; Hacker's Cross Award Winner
"one soler flar can vapririze the planit or malt the nickl in lass than millasacit" -Bagara1000
"Happiness is just a Flaming Moe away."
Fair enough, so the Narn and the Centauri could have only reached Kirishiac level FO, while the Humans/Minbari are like Vorlon? Well I guess I can accept that, barely mind you, just barely.Nephilim wrote:Crown - all First Ones haven't evolved from lower beings. There are basically two kinds of First Ones, Trascendental First Ones - beings that were already born with all of their abilities that they have now, immortal, ect. And Hyper-evolved First Ones - this category includes all of the other First Ones, including the Kirishiac and the Torvalus, that although they have yet to evolve into beings of light, they are still hyperevolved from their beginnings. Lorien said that his species could die through injury or illness, he was the First One, the others that followed him weren't as he was - in Into the Fire he goes on to explain that others of his species were later born not being naturally immortal, not all of them were energy after he was.
Here you have lost me, since I don't really understand your meaning. Do you mean that the YR must be able to form their own Jump Points? They can all pretty much do that, you know? If you would be so kind could you clarify that just a bit.Nephilim wrote:Also, evolving into a being of light IMO shouldn't be regarded as the meaning of being a First One, the true meaning of being a First One is to develop hyperspace capability by oneself without the need to reverse enginneer the technology from anyone else as the Younger Races ALL did in the current era. The last species to do this were the Kirishiac Lords and they ARE First Ones despite the fact that they are fresh and blood like just you and me. Humans and Minbari reached this level, but the Narns and Centauri hadn't by the time of the Sleeping in the Light. Again, what it means to be a First One shouldn't be determined by how much you have evolved, as they are current First Ones from that show that had yet to reach that level, eventhough their races were hundreds of millions years old.
The only reason I ask, as I mentioned above is that JMS specifically said that the Centauri and the Narns, do not evolve to FO status like the human seen in (wasn't deconstruction of falling stars? sleeping in light is when Sheriden carks it[finally!]) well that episode.
Η ζωή, η ζωή εδω τελειώνει!
"Science is one cold-hearted bitch with a 14" strap-on" - Masuka 'Dexter'
"Angela is not the woman you think she is Gabriel, she's done terrible things"
"So have I, and I'm going to do them all to you." - Sylar to Arthur 'Heroes'
Haven't you ever wondered why all of the younger races use the same kind of jump technology as the Vorlons? And yet other First Ones such as the Shadows for example use different methods, in their case Phasing? While races like the Walkers use Dimensional Jump Drives? The reason behind this was what happened after the Kirishiac War. The Kirishiac were the last of the species in this galaxy to have developed jump technology entirely on their own, and they later went on to conquer & destroy countless of young races and had most of the galaxy under their control. After the end of the Kirishiac War, the Vorlons took on the Jump Gate seeding project, in which they put a jump gate in nearly all systems in the galaxy, therefore creating the current hyperspace beacon network that the younger races now use. Nearly all races, like the Centauri, Abbai, Minbari ect found these jump gates in their homesystems and reversed engineered the technology and put it on their ships. This technology which originally came from the Vorlons, from their jump gates.Here you have lost me, since I don't really understand your meaning. Do you mean that the YR must be able to form their own Jump Points? They can all pretty much do that, you know? If you would be so kind could you clarify that just a bit.
The only reason I ask, as I mentioned above is that JMS specifically said that the Centauri and the Narns, do not evolve to FO status like the human seen in (wasn't deconstruction of falling stars? sleeping in light is when Sheriden carks it[finally!]) well that episode.
Now, the level of technology necessary to discover hyperspace, and have the necessary technology and build that technology by onceself is more than what the younger races have compared to the other First Ones. Each of them have their own way of entering hyperspace, or another dimension entirely. All First Ones don't even use the hyperspace beacon network because they mapped out hyperspace, the younger race's can't even do that and are limited to a certain beacon to get to a system. This is why i'm saying that the ability to build jump gate technology, discover hyperspace and travel it and mapping it out completely is what it means to be a First One. The last species to have done this was the Kirishiac. Don't know if you get what i mean
That's pretty cool. Where did you read about all of that? Was it in some of the B5 books?Nephilim wrote: Haven't you ever wondered why all of the younger races use the same kind of jump technology as the Vorlons? And yet other First Ones such as the Shadows for example use different methods, in their case Phasing? While races like the Walkers use Dimensional Jump Drives? The reason behind this was what happened after the Kirishiac War. The Kirishiac were the last of the species in this galaxy to have developed jump technology entirely on their own, and they later went on to conquer & destroy countless of young races and had most of the galaxy under their control. After the end of the Kirishiac War, the Vorlons took on the Jump Gate seeding project, in which they put a jump gate in nearly all systems in the galaxy, therefore creating the current hyperspace beacon network that the younger races now use. Nearly all races, like the Centauri, Abbai, Minbari ect found these jump gates in their homesystems and reversed engineered the technology and put it on their ships. This technology which originally came from the Vorlons, from their jump gates.
Now, the level of technology necessary to discover hyperspace, and have the necessary technology and build that technology by onceself is more than what the younger races have compared to the other First Ones. Each of them have their own way of entering hyperspace, or another dimension entirely. All First Ones don't even use the hyperspace beacon network because they mapped out hyperspace, the younger race's can't even do that and are limited to a certain beacon to get to a system. This is why i'm saying that the ability to build jump gate technology, discover hyperspace and travel it and mapping it out completely is what it means to be a First One. The last species to have done this was the Kirishiac. Don't know if you get what i mean
By the pricking of my thumb,
Something wicked this way comes.
Open, locks,
Whoever knocks.
Something wicked this way comes.
Open, locks,
Whoever knocks.
I do now, and I agree that would be a good measuring stick. However my whole point is that in Deconstruction of Falling Stars humans had evolved like Vorlons. When JMS was asked as to wheter other races had done the same, he said that the Minabari had, but the Centauri and the Narn had not, they were still around but not like FO status. Now I can't remember but didn't the human's 1million years plus open a Vorlon jump point? I can't remember myself, I just think that that's what happened.Nephilim wrote:Now, the level of technology necessary to discover hyperspace, and have the necessary technology and build that technology by onceself is more than what the younger races have compared to the other First Ones. Each of them have their own way of entering hyperspace, or another dimension entirely. All First Ones don't even use the hyperspace beacon network because they mapped out hyperspace, the younger race's can't even do that and are limited to a certain beacon to get to a system. This is why i'm saying that the ability to build jump gate technology, discover hyperspace and travel it and mapping it out completely is what it means to be a First One. The last species to have done this was the Kirishiac. Don't know if you get what i mean
Now if they had, lets assume for a second, that means that JMS catogorises FO status, by the ability to transend the physical body. And like I said, I can accept that if other FO exist who aren't transended then, I can accept that the Centauri and the Narn are like them. On one hand it makes sense, humans and minbari inter breed, minbari 'older' then Centauri so human/minbari hybrid reach transendence before Centauri. Still don't totally buy it, but I can live with it I guess.
Η ζωή, η ζωή εδω τελειώνει!
"Science is one cold-hearted bitch with a 14" strap-on" - Masuka 'Dexter'
"Angela is not the woman you think she is Gabriel, she's done terrible things"
"So have I, and I'm going to do them all to you." - Sylar to Arthur 'Heroes'
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His Divine Shadow
- Commence Primary Ignition
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I don't think humans went Vorlon, I think they went more a shadow-kinda way, with a pinch of vorlon, and no JMS did not have that happen just because they where touched by the shadows, remember, the Humans where that too.Crown wrote:I always thought all the FO evolved from 'lower beings', after all Ivanova was having that discussion with Lorien, about how wonderfull he must of thought fire was in the begining, and how Lorien admitted that his race can die, through injury or illness. I mean how could energy get sick right?
Once again I am pissed off that JMS said that the Centauri and the Narn don't reach FO status like the the humans and the minbari. I mean why? If it was because they were touched be the Shadows, big fucking deal! The Shadows are FO! When they went on the rampage, it took the combined strength of all the other FO to stop them! And I will point out that he did say that they did not die out, and that they were still around, but why not FO!?!?!?!?
And for anyone who wants to say that the Vorlons said that they are a dying race, big fuckin' deal! By the Vorlon's definition the Shadows are too! IMHO, they were doing pretty well for a dying race! Sorry, it's just that I think that is one of the things that I never understood why JMS said that.
I mean you have to evolve into a FO right? And which of the two guardian FO preached evolution? Why that would be the Shadows thaknyou very much Mr JMS....
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who did not.
Here's a simple way to think about it:
The Vorlons, Shadows, etc., are all First Generation First Ones. They are considered FOs because they developed hyperspace tech on their own. They eventually leave, and the galaxy is left to the Younger Races. All YR hyperspace tech ultimately derives from the technology of the Vorlons which they left behind to ensure that no race would develop hyperspace tech on their own and gain all the other advances that go with it. YRs who survive long enough will eventually become Second Generation First Ones. These will be the oldest and most advanced races in the galaxy. They could possibly develop their own forms of hyperspace tech over time, but their first hyperspace tech comes from the Vorlons.
All FOs are very old and powerful.
First Generation FOs are defined as having produced hyperspace technology on their own.
Second Generation FOs are defined as being of comparable (relative) age and technology level as the First Generation FOs, but having gained their first hyperspace tech from the First Generation FOs.
Third Generation FOs would have a similar definition to that of the Second Generation, but their first hyperspace tech would be either from the Vorlons, or some form produced by the Second Generation.
The Vorlons, Shadows, etc., are all First Generation First Ones. They are considered FOs because they developed hyperspace tech on their own. They eventually leave, and the galaxy is left to the Younger Races. All YR hyperspace tech ultimately derives from the technology of the Vorlons which they left behind to ensure that no race would develop hyperspace tech on their own and gain all the other advances that go with it. YRs who survive long enough will eventually become Second Generation First Ones. These will be the oldest and most advanced races in the galaxy. They could possibly develop their own forms of hyperspace tech over time, but their first hyperspace tech comes from the Vorlons.
All FOs are very old and powerful.
First Generation FOs are defined as having produced hyperspace technology on their own.
Second Generation FOs are defined as being of comparable (relative) age and technology level as the First Generation FOs, but having gained their first hyperspace tech from the First Generation FOs.
Third Generation FOs would have a similar definition to that of the Second Generation, but their first hyperspace tech would be either from the Vorlons, or some form produced by the Second Generation.
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adam warlock
- Youngling
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more info on the kirishiac..
some information from aog books posted by someone
some information from aog books posted by someone
"Kirish is a large planetoid, several time the size of any of the homeworlds of any of the current major races. It has a solid core, cold temperature, extremely high gravitic constant, and an atmosphere so thick as to be almost liquid. The lifeforms that evolved in such an environment are marvels of natural selection: multiple redundant cardiopulmonary systems and cells arranged in complex lattice structures. The dominant species, a race of seven meter tall, almost translucent race of bipeds, came to call themselves the Kirishiac."
"The Kirishiac are the last of what can truly be called the Ancient Races. There were many races to rise to power after them, but most all of those were manipulated by one of the puppetmaster races."
"The Kirishiac have eight hearts spread throughout their bodies, the only way to pump blood through limbs on such a high gravity world. This redundancy and the necessary strength of their physiological systems made them highly resistant to most kinetic weaponry, and due to their aggressive nature, they soon developed energy and chemical armaments. Living under a united feudalistic government, the conquerors of Kirish soon turned their sights to the sky."
"Leaving the planet turned out to be a major undertaking. Not only was it extremely difficult to construct a vessel capable of breaching the high gravity of their world, but also once they left they found that they had great problems existing in other atmospheres. Kirish would have been deemed uninhabitable by any other race finding it, and it caused its beings to thereby be unable to live anywhere else. To combat the structural problems of space flight, they quickly developed gravitic technology and the ability to construct vessels and buildings with extremely high strength to weight ratios."
"To protect their physical being when on other planets, it was necessary to encase themselves in atmosphere suits able to reproduce the gravity and pressure of the home world. Since they rarely went to a new planet for anything besides conquest, these suits are not best described as encounter suits, but instead as powered body armor. Of course, with powered body armor strong enough not to collapse upon itself in the harsh world of Kirish, worn by seven meter tall warriors on a normal gravity world, the Kirishiac Lords found all the nearby systems easily subjugated."
"Holding dominion over this empire was difficult for the Kirishiac, only due to the sheer size of it. It could take hundreds of years to travel across the breadth of their domain. Their scientists researched thousands of different drive systems until finally they discovered Hyperspace."
"Upon reaching the galactic community, they were shocked to discover the Ancients. The Walkers were already deeply involved in their quest to map and catalogue the universe. The Vorlons and Shadows kept to themselves, and only the Torvalus (Dask-note: Torvalus had the vertical "wing ship" at Coriana 6) still had any sort of expansionist policy within their territory, but acting as guardians instead of conquerors. There were thousands of developing races, struggling to survive, being completely ignored by these god-like beings. Now that the Kirishiac had Hyperspace technology, they could surely rule them all."
"For several thousand years, the Kirishiac expanded their empire, sometimes wiping out a young race, but most times forcing them into slavery. The Triad (Triad had the three-armed ship at Coriana 6 and second oldest species after Lorien and his people), having long since resolved their inner conflicts, saw this and, taking pity on the lesser species, begged the other Ancients for action."
"None of the others would get involved. Theirs had been a policy of isolationism. The young races should be allowed to evolve at their own paces, free of interference from the Ancients. The Triad argued that the Kirishiac were at the same level as the Ancients, and therefore in their jurisdiction. The debate continued for eons until the Kirishiac made the decision for them."
"Tired of respecting borders and avoiding sectors of space, the Kirishiac began investigating other worlds to conquer. The Walkers, forever off on their scientific missions, were never around to use the territory they demanded as sanctuary. Surely they wouldn't even notice if a few systems were "borrowed"."
"Fortunately for the Kirishiac, the Walkers did not notice the infringement on their territory, which only served to fuel the Kirishiac arrogance. They advanced their empire through the Walker space until they bordered Vorlon territory. It was at this point that the Vorlons contacted the Walkers directly. The Walkers were not pleased that the other Ancients had sat by while the Kirishiac violated the millenia-old territorial boundaries, not the first and certainly not the last offense that the Vorlons inflicted upon the Walkers' sensibilities (Dask-note: ZOG!)."
"As the Walkers began the long process of recalling their ships from across all the galaxies and dozens of dimensions, the Kirishiac made their second mistake. Although the Shadows hadn't yet began their manipulations of the younger races, they had started with their occasional, centuries-long cycles of hibernations. To the Kirishiac, this was an open invitation, and soon the invasion of Shadow territory was underway."
"The Walkers, with the help of the Triad, traveled to Z'ha'dum and enlisted Lorien and the few of his remaining people to help raise the Shadows from their slumber. The Ancients hadn't fought a war in millenia, and this upstart race, whose technology was on par with their own, was making it very difficult for the Ancients to keep to themselves any longer."
"So the battle was joined. The Triad spearheaded every major offensive. Ever careful not to simply overpower their enemy, they were interested in teaching the Kirishiac a lesson. The Shadows and the Walkers were not so condescending. Eventually even the Vorlons and Torvalus mobilized against the Kirishiac, and before they had realized it, the Kirishiac were overwhelmed."
"It was impossible to hide from the Walkers, or to out-maneuver the Torvalus. When it became evident to the degree of which the Triad was pulling its punches, the Lords of Kirish finally admitted to defeat."
"As Lorien refused to stand in judgement against the Kirishiac, he directed that the other Ancients should shoulder some of the blame. The isolationist policies of the past were what had allowed this conflict to happen. They had sat behind their castle walls while the Kirishiac developed technology to the point where they actually were a threat. It could not be allowed to happen again."
"It was concluded that the Kirishiac entrance into the galactic community had come when they were far too advanced to easily be manipulated or controlled. There had to be a way to adjust the Technology Tree of the arising races. The Vorlons proposed that the level of advancement needed to operate Hyperspace technology was orders of magnitude less than that needed to invent it."
"This, amongst other reasons, caused the Vorlons to take it upon themselves to seed the universe with jump gates. The Kirishiac War also proved to be a motivation for the calculated manipulation of the younger races by the Shadows and the Vorlons, to prevent the Ancients from ever being surprised again."
"From his vantage point on Z'ha'dum, Lorien frowned."
Additionally, there's this... from that same book...
"The Lords of Kirish were beaten back into their original territory, the area of space that they occupied before their discovery of hyperspace, but they would not give up. Their research and development departments were constantly striving to come up with new weaponry, with the hope that, one day, they will be able to turn the tide of battle."
"In an effort to illustrate how techologically inferior the Kirishiac were, and how far they would have to come to truly be a threat, the Walkers of Sigma 957 performed a simple feat. A large fleet of Walker vessels, containing ten or twelve Travelers and many lesser-class vessels, appeared in the middle of Kirishiac space without activating a single early warning alarm. The Walkers then surrounded a large moon orbiting one of the Kirishiac's largest colony planets. In a period of time too rapid for the Lords to respond to the invaders, the Walkers activated their jump engines, and vanished into another dimension, taking the moon with them."
"The results on the planet below were instantaneous. Earthquakes and volcanic eruptions rocked he surface. The atmosphere, carefully formed over the centures, began to drift away as the planet shifted its axis. The inhabitants were truly doomed."
"And then the Walkers put the moon back. The fleet reappeared and launched the moon along a new orbit, the result of which restored the planetary balance and created a more moderate climate. Finally aware of the level of technology their older brothers possessed, the Kirishiac surrendered immediately."
Thanks for the quote, Warlock.
Another issue raised by B5 is the transformation of Jason Ironheart into a godlike superbeing in "Mind Wars". Throughout his slow trandformation process, Jason exhibited abilities apparently greater than those of a single Shadow or Vorlon, particularly with the "final" (?) stage outside of the station. Surely Ambassador Kosh would have sensed what was happening? Wouldn't he be obliged to report such a profound event (even by First One standards) to the Vorlon Empire? Surely the Shadows would have found out one way or another? Wouldn't either race be as alarmed as we would be if a guppy suddenly grew to the size of an Arrakis Sandworm?
Another issue raised by B5 is the transformation of Jason Ironheart into a godlike superbeing in "Mind Wars". Throughout his slow trandformation process, Jason exhibited abilities apparently greater than those of a single Shadow or Vorlon, particularly with the "final" (?) stage outside of the station. Surely Ambassador Kosh would have sensed what was happening? Wouldn't he be obliged to report such a profound event (even by First One standards) to the Vorlon Empire? Surely the Shadows would have found out one way or another? Wouldn't either race be as alarmed as we would be if a guppy suddenly grew to the size of an Arrakis Sandworm?