Homeworld ship designs

Temjin · Post by **Temjin** » 2003-04-20 03:11pm

Coaan wrote:The Kushan were infact the ones ground into dust and sent out as exiles....among other things, the official site actually lists this in the plot...it doesn't matter depending on ship class....that's the facts as they stand

Shortly after their relocation to the harsh desert world of Kharak, the Exiles forgot both their origins and technology. It took them 3,000 years to struggle back to the stars. Having rediscovered hyperspace and the location of their original planet, all the families of Kharak, or kiith, united to build a mothership that could take them home. Just as they prepared to embark, however, the brutal Taiidan Empire took notice and attacked. Enforcing an ancient decree forbidding the Exiles from developing hyperspace technology, the emperor had his forces immolate the planet. Only those already in space survived.

This cruel slaughter appalled dissidents throughout the empire, and the mothership's heartening retaliation and escape catalyzed a long-overdue rebellion. Amid wholesale civil war, and with the help of the highly advanced trader race known as the Bentusi, the Exiles regained their homeworld, and the emperor and his pirate mercenaries were defeated.
Taken from Homeworld official page

It bluntly shows the Taiidan as the aggressors here...end of argument as to who is the true exiles here. Who we choose however, is just a matter down to style

Yes, the Kushan are the exiles now that Cataclysm has come out. But my point is that the Taiidan were the original exiles. Relic has said this (can't find quote).

Not only that, but if you look at the (horribly done) Cataclysm manual, Under the Taiidan "Tiishak" class salvage corvette, you will see this:

The ship is named for Tiirshak Sjet, the famous Taiidani scolar who turned his back not only on his kith but on his entire race, in oder to wander the deserts in search of insight.

Now, there's always a chance this could be a typo, but I don't think it is. If you look at the other ship deiscriptions, it looks like Barking Dog just ripped the discriptions from Relic's site.

But this is a pointless arguement, the Kushan are now officially the exiles, even though Relic didn't intend that.

Coaan · Post by **Coaan** » 2003-04-20 03:15pm

I don't believe that for a moment.

You don't go changing games just because the addon you release a year and a bit later says so, Sierra...the publishers of the game have stated as I have that the Kushan were the exiles..this is good enough for me.

Find the quote that would say otherwise, I'd imagine the relic site would have it if anywhere

The Taiidan siezed their homeworld, ofcourse they'll have ships birthed their for their empire 3000 years on.

Temjin · Post by **Temjin** » 2003-04-20 03:26pm

Coaan wrote:I don't believe that for a moment.

You don't go changing games just because the addon you release a year and a bit later says so, Sierra...the publishers of the game have stated as I have that the Kushan were the exiles..this is good enough for me.

Yes, they are the exiles now. To tell you the truth, I have no idea why the changed from the Taiidan. I have a few guesses, but guesses are all they are.

Find the quote that would say otherwise, I'd imagine the relic site would have it if anywhere

I wish I could find the quote, but unfortunatly it was on the old Relic boards and has since been deleted. Yes, I know that since I can not back this up, you have every right to just ignore it. All I can say is, I remember seeing that quote.

The Taiidan siezed their homeworld, ofcourse they'll have ships birthed their for their empire 3000 years on.

I'm sorry, but could you clarify this a little. I'm not sure what idea you're trying to get across here.

Coaan · Post by **Coaan** » 2003-04-20 03:32pm

I wish I could find the quote, but unfortunatly it was on the old Relic boards and has since been deleted. Yes, I know that since I can not back this up, you have every right to just ignore it. All I can say is, I remember seeing that quote.

I just find it hard to believe...it's not impossible though...that quote would have been handy though...

I'm sorry, but could you clarify this a little. I'm not sure what idea you're trying to get across here.

Alright, lets assume for a moment the homeworld they were cast out from was similar to their own that just got...well...the barbecue treatment, now...given 3000 years of development and considering it seemed to be a major planet of interest...it would only lead to the conclusion that the Taiidan had started developing ships there and the like.....this is hearsay though...it could explain the misprints if they were

Temjin · Post by **Temjin** » 2003-04-20 03:46pm

Coaan wrote:Alright, lets assume for a moment the homeworld they were cast out from was similar to their own that just got...well...the barbecue treatment, now...given 3000 years of development and considering it seemed to be a major planet of interest...it would only lead to the conclusion that the Taiidan had started developing ships there and the like.....this is hearsay though...it could explain the misprints if they were

Kharak, the planet that got deep fried, was a desert wasteland (Think Dune but without the spice). The only temperate area were the poles.

Hiigara, on the other hand, is more like Earth. You can actually see oceans on the surface of the planet. It could not be more different than Kharak.

Also, I don't think the Taiidani has the kith system that was mentioned in my quote.

Coaan · Post by **Coaan** » 2003-04-20 03:50pm

Temjin wrote:
Coaan wrote:Alright, lets assume for a moment the homeworld they were cast out from was similar to their own that just got...well...the barbecue treatment, now...given 3000 years of development and considering it seemed to be a major planet of interest...it would only lead to the conclusion that the Taiidan had started developing ships there and the like.....this is hearsay though...it could explain the misprints if they were
Kharak, the planet that got deep fried, was a desert wasteland (Think Dune but without the spice). The only temperate area were the poles.

Hiigara, on the other hand, is more like Earth. You can actually see oceans on the surface of the planet. It could not be more different than Kharak.

Also, I don't think the Taiidani has the kith system that was mentioned in my quote.

Even earth has it's deserts...rather large ones..it could be a referance to any desert area the planet might have...the Taiidani way of life isn't really described in any kind of way either...we can only guess that the Kith system came from somewhere...

Temjin · Post by **Temjin** » 2003-04-20 03:54pm

Coaan wrote:Even earth has it's deserts...rather large ones..it could be a referance to any desert area the planet might have...the Taiidani way of life isn't really described in any kind of way either...we can only guess that the Kith system came from somewhere...

I conceed. Without that quote there is no way for me to prove that the Taiidan were the original exiles. I could argue here till my fingers fall off and I wouldn't get anywhere.

Just wish that I could find that damn quote though......

Coaan · Post by **Coaan** » 2003-04-20 04:00pm

Temjin wrote:
Coaan wrote:Even earth has it's deserts...rather large ones..it could be a referance to any desert area the planet might have...the Taiidani way of life isn't really described in any kind of way either...we can only guess that the Kith system came from somewhere...
I conceed. Without that quote there is no way for me to prove that the Taiidan were the original exiles. I could argue here till my fingers fall off and I wouldn't get anywhere.

Just wish that I could find that damn quote though......

Nay, I'd say it's more a standstill...or a draw if you will...we could both argue till the cows come home...if they did change it, then they're just plain screwing with our minds...

Still, no harm in keeping alert...maybe relic still have it stashed somewhere

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2003-04-20 04:03pm

Coaan wrote:Even earth has it's deserts...rather large ones..it could be a referance to any desert area the planet might have...the Taiidani way of life isn't really described in any kind of way either...we can only guess that the Kith system came from somewhere...

The Kiith system is assumed to date back to before the arrival on Kharak. However, would the Empire and the Exiles share the same families? Do take in mind that his Kiith was Sjet, as in Karan Sjet. Note that Kiith Sjet are Exile scholars as well, so it would literally have to be the same exact family in both the Empire and the Exiles. So we have two possible explainations: Either Tiirshak Sjet was Imperial, or he was Exile. If he was Exile, it makes a good deal of sense, but it contradicts the fan-fiction of Cataclysm. If he was Imperial, we have to make even MORE assumptions, which is a bad thing.

As for Cataclysm happening, Relic is not bound to follow the events of Cataclysm at all for the purposes of HW2. However, I think that because the Banana MS is so popular, they'll use it for HW2 anyway. Take from that what you will.

Coaan · Post by **Coaan** » 2003-04-20 04:09pm

Ugh, I need more sleep for this...

If they manage to actually pull off a good game and not completely mess it up...they'll get my applause

FaxModem1 · Post by **FaxModem1** » 2003-04-20 05:15pm

Geez, this is confusing, the Taidan(apache helicopter looking fighters and horizontal mothership) are the people who used to live on Kharak? Then the Kushan(bars of soap fighters, vertical Mothership) is the Empire?

I'M SO CONFUSED!!!!!!

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-04-20 05:21pm

Temjin wrote: Yes, the Kushan are the exiles now that Cataclysm has come out. But my point is that the Taiidan were the original exiles. Relic has said this (can't find quote).

Bullshit. There was never an official stance on who the Exiles were before Cataclysm. That's how it became the most remembered flamewar of the old Relic forums before Cataclysm settled the issue.

If you have a real quote, show it, or ram it up your ass.

Not only that, but if you look at the (horribly done) Cataclysm manual, Under the Taiidan "Tiishak" class salvage corvette, you will see this:

The ship is named for Tiirshak Sjet, the famous Taiidani scolar who turned his back not only on his kith but on his entire race, in oder to wander the deserts in search of insight.
Now, there's always a chance this could be a typo, but I don't think it is. If you look at the other ship deiscriptions, it looks like Barking Dog just ripped the discriptions from Relic's site.

YapyapyapyapIhatebarkingdogyapyapyap.

So it's beyond your mind's ability to consider that planets somewhere in the vast interstellar Empire of the Taidanni could have a desert?

But this is a pointless arguement, the Kushan are now officially the exiles, even though Relic didn't intend that.

Bullshit. The race you had to select in the HW Demo? KUSHAN. The MS shown on the cover of the game box? KUSHAN. Number of Relic Employees who were upset by the move? ZERO. Source of plot information used by Barking Dog? RELIC.

You are full of shit, like everyone who ever claimed the Taidan were the true Exiles(Which is a big difference from those who felt they would make a better Exile race, plotwise, but I digress). Back up any of your bullshit, please, or fuck the hell off. I am so not in the mood for this ancient flamewar to be revived here on SDN, because you're an assmonkey.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-04-20 05:22pm

FaxModem1 wrote:Geez, this is confusing, the Taidan(apache helicopter looking fighters and horizontal mothership) are the people who used to live on Kharak? Then the Kushan(bars of soap fighters, vertical Mothership) is the Empire?

I'M SO CONFUSED!!!!!!

You're being bullshitted. The official stance on the Exiles is that the Kushan were the Exiles. Don't feed the moron.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2003-04-20 05:33pm

SirNitram wrote:Bullshit. There was never an official stance on who the Exiles were before Cataclysm. That's how it became the most remembered flamewar of the old Relic forums before Cataclysm settled the issue.

Barking Dog != Relic just as KJA != George Lucas

YapyapyapyapIhatebarkingdogyapyapyap.

So it's beyond your mind's ability to consider that planets somewhere in the vast interstellar Empire of the Taidanni could have a desert?

Please read my quote above. What are the chances that the evil empire would have a Kiith Sjet if Kiith Sjet was of the Exiles? It requires more assumptions to be made than the alternative.

Bullshit. The race you had to select in the HW Demo? KUSHAN.

So what? The demo means nothing. They could have flipped a coin to make that decision. What is your evidence that they based it on the Kushan being the exiles, or is that just after the fact rationalization?

The MS shown on the cover of the game box? KUSHAN.

Guess what? Box design is a marketing decision, made by Sierra, not Relic. You'll also notice that the ships on the cover of the game box are mirror images of the ones found in the actual game. Proof that this has anything to do with Relic's personal, internal decisions please?

Number of Relic Employees who were upset by the move? ZERO.

Number of Relic Employees who have said ANYTHING one way or the other concerning the subject? ZERO. Relic is VERY tight-lipped about certain things, and this is one of them.

Source of plot information used by Barking Dog? RELIC.

So you're saying that Barking Dog didn't take any liberties with Relic's plot information or world background information? Come on. Until you can provide evidence saying that Relic told Barking Dog that the Kushan were the true exiles, that argument doesn't mean anything.

You are full of shit, like everyone who ever claimed the Taidan were the true Exiles(Which is a big difference from those who felt they would make a better Exile race, plotwise, but I digress). Back up any of your bullshit, please, or fuck the hell off. I am so not in the mood for this ancient flamewar to be revived here on SDN, because you're an assmonkey.

Back up your own, please.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-04-20 05:41pm

Hotfoot, don't sell me this 'Absense of evidence' nonsense. The only information that could be gleaned from Relic indicates the Kushan, so why should we magically assume it was the Taidan?

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2003-04-20 05:50pm

SirNitram wrote:Hotfoot, don't sell me this 'Absense of evidence' nonsense. The only information that could be gleaned from Relic indicates the Kushan, so why should we magically assume it was the Taidan?

Pardon? You're the person who's saying that because nothing has been said at all that we should take it to mean that they really are supporting one side or another.

I would also disagree with you: there is information gleaned from Relic which indicates the Taiidan. The example above concerning Kiith Sjet is just one such example.

Now, as far as I know, in HW2 the exiles will be using the Banana. Why, I don't know. Possibly because it was the most popular MS design, possibly because they don't want to dismiss Barking Dog out of hand, I don't know. Still, the new ship designs seem to me to be a mixture of Kushani and Taiidani designs, further blurring the line.

For all we know, they might have used parts from the Emperor's MS to help fortify the original MS, but that's pure speculation.

The Exiles should have been the Taiidan. All prior evidence suggested quite heavily towards that. Unless Relic was deliberately feeding misinformation to the fans (as we know it was in the manual, having both Kushan and Taiidan ships in the fluff sections), the Taiidan should have been the proper exiles.

Temjin · Post by **Temjin** » 2003-04-20 06:02pm

Fuck. I've already conceeded the god-damn debate. I already admitted I don't have enough fucking evidence to support my position. What the fuck else do you want me to do?

[EDIT] Oh, and this wasn't a flame war till you posted. We actually managed to keep this debate pretty civil.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-04-20 06:04pm

Hotfoot wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Hotfoot, don't sell me this 'Absense of evidence' nonsense. The only information that could be gleaned from Relic indicates the Kushan, so why should we magically assume it was the Taidan?
Pardon? You're the person who's saying that because nothing has been said at all that we should take it to mean that they really are supporting one side or another.

My rebuttal was aimed at the guy who was insisting the Taidanni were the Exiles, and mysteriously never able to provide the quote. I honestly couldn't care, as I know the evidence for either side is flimsy. I'm just pointing out the only info that could be taken for evidence is towards the other side.

I would also disagree with you: there is information gleaned from Relic which indicates the Taiidan. The example above concerning Kiith Sjet is just one such example.

I find it shaky, but as you wish. I just hate this fucking flamewar, and seeing Temjin bring it up got me from my already-riled state to flamewarrior.

Now, as far as I know, in HW2 the exiles will be using the Banana. Why, I don't know. Possibly because it was the most popular MS design, possibly because they don't want to dismiss Barking Dog out of hand, I don't know. Still, the new ship designs seem to me to be a mixture of Kushani and Taiidani designs, further blurring the line.

Given that they worked with Barking Dog, I wouldn't be surprised at all if they really did agree with them. I don't see why no one wishes to consider that idea, oh well.

For all we know, they might have used parts from the Emperor's MS to help fortify the original MS, but that's pure speculation.

Not from the size of the fireball that took it when I played.

The Exiles should have been the Taiidan. All prior evidence suggested quite heavily towards that. Unless Relic was deliberately feeding misinformation to the fans (as we know it was in the manual, having both Kushan and Taiidan ships in the fluff sections), the Taiidan should have been the proper exiles.

I'll be more sedate now, and simply ask for this prior evidence.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » 2003-04-20 07:17pm

SirNitram wrote:My rebuttal was aimed at the guy who was insisting the Taidanni were the Exiles, and mysteriously never able to provide the quote. I honestly couldn't care, as I know the evidence for either side is flimsy. I'm just pointing out the only info that could be taken for evidence is towards the other side.

Your rebuttal, however, was shaky. You simply could have asked that he provide any sort of evidence that such a statement was made, other than in his own imagination.

I find it shaky, but as you wish. I just hate this fucking flamewar, and seeing Temjin bring it up got me from my already-riled state to flamewarrior.

I brought the topic up, following Sokar's post. Just bugs me that people take Cataclysm at face value so easily, right in the face of everything else that points towards the subject. The fact of the matter is, yes, you can find deserts on just about any terracompatable world. But can you find Kiith Sjet in any spacefaring race? We don't even know if the Empire and the Exiles were compatable, and we would assume not, since Hiigara is never referenced as the Homeworld of the Empire. So to accept that Kiith Sjet is both a Kiith in the Kushan race and the Taiidan race means you have to make a huge amount of assumptions. You have to assume they are genetically compatable. You have to assume that not all of Kiith Sjet was exiled with the rest of the Exiles. You have to assume that after all this time, Kiith Sjet is still held in some sort of reverance by the Imperials, despite their link to the exiles. Not only that, but the Empire is a multiple-star-system empire. Why reference "the deserts" if you could be referring to the deserts of dozens, hundreds, maybe even thousands of planets? Would he go from planet to planet, only visiting the deserts of each? That makes no sense.

Given that they worked with Barking Dog, I wouldn't be surprised at all if they really did agree with them. I don't see why no one wishes to consider that idea, oh well.

Worked with Barking Dog? How much? In what aspects? Did they provide storyline assistance? Did they provide background information? Or maybe they just supplied whatever coding help Barking Dog may have needed? Cataclysm takes a lot of the flavor and fluff from Homeworld (especially technology) and stomps all over it, with little regard for continuity. With HW2 on the way, I suspect that much of Barking Dog's contributions to the HW storyline and universe are going to be quietly ignored. There will be no Super Acolyte, there will be no Multibeam Frigate, that much I can say for certain. The rest, I don't know, but from what I hear from Relic, and I will provide quotes if I can, Cataclysm is not going to be largely recognized in HW2. Probably the only link is going to be the 'nana.

Not from the size of the fireball that took it when I played.

Well, that's a limitation of the game engine.

I'll be more sedate now, and simply ask for this prior evidence.

The other ship descriptions, from Taiidan and Kushan both. Ignoring the nonsense from the Cataclysm manual (let's just use Homeworld Classic only for the purposes of this discussion), the Taiidan descriptions most resemble those of the Exiles, while the Kushan descriptions most resemble those of the Imperials.

I will freely admit that the rest of the evidence is mostly sketchy and circumstantial at best, but tends to suggest the Taiidan over the Kushan regardless. The final word comes from Relic, but they've not said anything definatively as of yet to my knowledge, so this is what we have to work with.

Tasoth · Post by **Tasoth** » 2003-04-20 08:41pm

Uh, yeah. I personally favor the Taiidan, especially the Interceptor.

God Emperor · Post by **God Emperor** » 2003-04-20 09:13pm

I like the Kadesh, swarmers are the greatest fighters ever, but from the two choices, Taiidan, but I like the Kushan corvettes.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-04-20 09:31pm

There is canon evidence from the original Homeworld that supports the Kushan as being the exiles.

http://well-of-souls.com/homeworld/hws/ ... rrier1.jpg

This particular carrier design was seen in the Kadesh Cathederal near the cargo ship that brought these particular Kushan into the nebula where they became the Kadesh. It states the Kadesh canabalized all the ships that entered, yet they didn't touch their own ship. The fact that a carrier type vesel with a clear design lineage to the Kushan carrier is intact and imediately near the cargo ship proves who the exiles truly are.

http://well-of-souls.com/homeworld/hws/ ... arrier.htm

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2003-04-20 09:56pm

I seem to recall reading somewhere that Relic did not much care for the Cataclysm storyline and would disregard it in the production of Homeworld 2, but I'll be damned if I can remember where I saw that.

Lonestar · Post by **Lonestar** » 2003-04-20 10:04pm

Your arguments are destroying my love for the game.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-04-20 10:15pm

Uraniun235 wrote:I seem to recall reading somewhere that Relic did not much care for the Cataclysm storyline and would disregard it in the production of Homeworld 2, but I'll be damned if I can remember where I saw that.

They didn't like it; however, they know they can't disregard it because it was a fan favorite. At most they will intentionaly destroy the Kuun-Lan in the begining just to spite Barking Dog yet apease the fans.