Christian school.

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2003-04-20 07:09pm

Cthulhu-chan wrote:Well of course god doesn't say anything anymore. Just like Zeus, Odin, Brahmin, etc, don't speak to their faithful anymore.

Do Zeus and Odin still have any faithful? I'd have thought the benevolent God of Christ had killed them all off.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-04-20 08:42pm

Queeb Salaron wrote:::Sighs:: You all realize we're debating a point that would ultimately tear Christianity to shreds, right?

Christianity exists because people believe that God is good (which I think is true, post-OT; He promised the world in his covenant with Noah that he'd never take out entire civilizations again. During the OT, he was a bastard). If God suddenly was NOT good, (also debatable,) there would be a great disbursement of the Church. Christianity would become universally despicable, and Christians and Jews would become the scum of the earth, provided they stayed faithful.

But what we have to realize is that GOD DOESN'T SAY ANYTHING ANYMORE! The only voice that God has comes from the Vatican. So if the POPE were to come out and say that killing is OK, then there would be a lot of angry Catholics, because obviously the Pope is not representing the Will of God as demonstrated in the New Testament. In fact, the Pope would probably be forced to step down so another new pope could take his place, simply because of the outrageousness of the sin. In short, NO Christian in his right mind could accept a dictum that tells the faithful to kill babies. Such a demand would cause a revolt the likes of which this world has never seen.

the majority of protestants ive met cheerfully ignore the pope.

course, some of them say they hear god.

Queeb Salaron · Post by **Queeb Salaron** » 2003-04-20 08:45pm

OF COURSE PROTESTANTS IGNORE THE POPE!

The pope is a strictly Catholic figure. Catholics and Protestants are VERY different. Who do you think the Protestants were protesting?! Obviously they wouldn't give a rat's ass what the pope says.

::Sighs::

Jonathan · Post by **Jonathan** » 2003-04-21 11:36am

Darth Wong wrote:Jonathan, you really don't get it, do you? If someone has a moral code, then he has an internal set of values. He knows what is right and wrong. In your case, you do NOT have a moral code. Instead, you would gladly do ANYTHING you think God wanted you to: murder babies, kill your own child, etc., because your morality is based on obedience to authority rather than ethics. As the Nazis said at Nuremberg, you would "just follow orders".

I do have an internal set of values - my conscience. And that conscience comes from God. If God knows better than me what is right or wrong, then it is good that I follow him exactly.

THAT is why I say you have no moral code. It's not even a matter of my moral code being better than yours; you have no moral code at all. All you have is blind obedience to authority, no matter what that authority may say. For you, any cruelty, any violence, any evil act is OK if the authority says so. That is not a moral code.

God is incapable of evil acts, being totally moral. That is why I follow him. You follow your code of morals because you believe it to be right. I follow God because _he_ is my code of morals.

So yes, my moral code is superior to yours. You can bullshit all you like, cite the Bible all you like, defend God's morality by saying that he tells us to love one another (when he's not busy telling us to kill one another) or died for our sins (when he's not busy torturing us for eternity for our sins), but ultimately, YOU have still demonstrated that YOU have no morality at all.

Wrong, as I have pointed out. And you still have not pointed out why anyone should accept your moral code as right.

Jonathan · Post by **Jonathan** » 2003-04-21 11:37am

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi wrote:Also, I have a question for Johnathan: If God told you to jump off a cliff, would you do it?

I will do what God tells me to do. I do not, however, forsee any circumstances in which he would ask me to jump off a cliff.

Jonathan · Post by **Jonathan** » 2003-04-21 11:38am

Alyrium Denryle wrote:If god told you to kill the entire population of a city(assuming you could) accept for the virgin girls, who he commanded you to rape, and take as your slaves, would you do it?

That's an intrinsically imposible msituation. You'd be as well to ask what I would do if God told me to worship the devil exclusively. Ain't going to happen. God is by his nature perfetly moral, righteous and just. Rape is wrong, therefore he would never ask anyone to do it.

Darth Gojira · Post by **Darth Gojira** » 2003-04-21 11:49am

BREE BREE BREE! ALL FLAMEWARRIORS ALERT: IRRITATING FALLACY SPOTTED! REPORT TO THE OFF-TOPIC IMMEDIATLY!!!

Jonathan · Post by **Jonathan** » 2003-04-21 11:49am

Rye wrote:Okay, if you had access to nuclear weapons, would you leave one in an Al Qaeda training camp?

The inaction which leads to much pain and suffering counts as your fault,

That's a very vague, loose scenario for which I would need more details so I would know alternative courses of action that would be open to me. I would pray ofr wisdom and guidance certainly.

in my book, which is what god likes to do (setting adam and eve up for the fall, watching them do it, then blaming them, even though they had no knowledge of what was wrong) , then righteously rain down pain on all and sundry.

God didn't set them up, in fact he told them not to do it.

God it seems does not take responsibility,

Why would he when he's not repsonsible for actions we do out of our own free will? Sounds to me like you don't want to take responsibility for your actions.

or at least, does not do so until jesus comes round and dies in a horrific way for all our sins that he let happen in the first place. Then we're supposed to be thankful that he finally got his arse in gear, and sent some poor dude to die.

Uh, we chose to sin. It's not his repsonsibility to save us. We don't desrve it. Sounds like you want a licence to do whay you want without any fear of represcussions.

So what happened before jesus? I've heard answers for this as "they made animal sacrifices to appease God" and "Jesus was God overcoming death to absolve us of our sins", Jesus was a human sacrifice.

They tried to follow the law and failed. The sacrifices they made for a stand in for Jesus. They in themselves did nothing, but were a sign that they were seeking forgiveness, which would come with Jesus and be retorspectively applied.

Therefore, as this and several animal sacrifices, and almost human sacrifices,

What do you mean by almost human sacrifices? Its sounds a little like being almost pregnant.

[quotes]and the righteous killing of the many, all of this behaviour, seen as righteous by God, seems a waste and pain oriented to me. I also don't see what an all loving being would be doing making a hell for people to go to anyway, or why he sent jesus to die for us(if he is as powerful as he claims to be, why not wipe the slate clean in some other none painful way?).[/quote]

For a start, if you sin, there is no reason why you deserve to be forgiven. Sin has to be paid for. And God gave us free will, so we have to choose whether or not we want our sin paid for. We choose whether to follow God. If someone rejects God, they are saying that they want cut off from him, so he gives them exactly that. He cuts them off from him compeltely and in doing so, cuts off their sin from creation. Being cut off from God is being cut off from all that is good and all that is loving. That is why it is torment and suffering. Hell is exactly what the unrepentant are asking for, exactly what they deserve and aexactly what they get.

Another point i would like to make is this: if god is so powerful, can he overcome logic?

If so, could he create a free willed species that always choose the right way, and by doing so, none of them go to hell?

What you are asking is 'can God do the intrinsically impossible?' to which the answer is 'no'. He can neither do nor not do things which make no sense. The famous question 'can an all powerful being make a weight he cannot lift?' is an example of this. It is intriinsically impossible. The situation makes no sense, the question makes no sense. You cannot say can God do it or not do it, because it makes no sense.

If it is possible for him to do those things, why didn't he? The only answers i can think of are either a)he isnt all loving, or b)he isnt all powerful. Or both.

Neither. There are certain things which are intrinsically impossible and make no sense. A free willed being which can make only one choice is intrinsically impossible because it is a contradictory, paradoxial situation.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-04-21 11:50am

Jonathan wrote:God is incapable of evil acts, being totally moral. That is why I follow him. You follow your code of morals because you believe it to be right. I follow God because _he_ is my code of morals.

In other words, you appeal to his authority.

Jonathan · Post by **Jonathan** » 2003-04-21 11:51am

Cthulhu-chan wrote:Well of course god doesn't say anything anymore. Just like Zeus, Odin, Brahmin, etc, don't speak to their faithful anymore.

He speaks plenty. I see him answer prayer. I hear of miracles being performed, I see him guide people's lives, change their hearts. I read a book recently, 'Killing Fields, Living Fields' about the church in Cambodia. Fascinating book and it was blatantly obvious from it that God is very much at work. He doesn't work miraculous signs for all to see anymore as he has given plenty all ready. If people will not believe him when he comes in person, works miracels and rises from the dead, then a couple more miracles won't change poeple's hearts.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-04-21 11:55am

Funny then, that all these supposed miracles are compeltely unverified, and occur in areas/times of mass uneducation and rabid ignorance.

Darth Gojira · Post by **Darth Gojira** » 2003-04-21 12:17pm

Vympel wrote:Funny then, that all these supposed miracles are compeltely unverified, and occur in areas/times of mass uneducation and rabid ignorance.

I'm sure it's just a coincidence.

Jonathan · Post by **Jonathan** » 2003-04-21 12:31pm

Vympel wrote:Funny then, that all these supposed miracles are compeltely unverified, and occur in areas/times of mass uneducation and rabid ignorance.

I'd say that we citizens of Northern Ireland are quite intelligent and well educated. On aerage, we're better educated than the English. And I have friends I implicitly trust who have witnessed miracles. I believe their testimony.

And miracles tend to happen to those who have faith. If you don't believe, I wouldn't be surprised if you never saw one.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-04-21 12:34pm

Jonathan wrote:
I'd say that we citizens of Northern Ireland are quite intelligent and well educated. On aerage, we're better educated than the English. And I have friends I implicitly trust who have witnessed miracles. I believe their testimony.

Nothing to do with whether they're verified or not, which they never are, a lot of 'miracles' just being hoaxes (especially those 'crying statues' for example) What happened exactly? Did the face of Jesus appear in a bowl of pasta or something?

And miracles tend to happen to those who have faith. If you don't believe, I wouldn't be surprised if you never saw one.

How convenient!

Jonathan · Post by **Jonathan** » 2003-04-21 12:37pm

Durandal wrote:
Jonathan wrote:God is incapable of evil acts, being totally moral. That is why I follow him. You follow your code of morals because you believe it to be right. I follow God because _he_ is my code of morals.
In other words, you appeal to his authority.

In the same sense that asking Einstein about the contents of his paper on the theory of relativity would be an appeal to authority. If someone is the ultimate authority on a matter, then there is no problem with appealing to thier judgement.

Why would your code of morality be any better than God's?

Jonathan · Post by **Jonathan** » 2003-04-21 12:48pm

Vympel wrote:Nothing to do with whether they're verified or not, which they never are, a lot of 'miracles' just being hoaxes (especially those 'crying statues' for example) What happened exactly? Did the face of Jesus appear in a bowl of pasta or something?

Chronic illnesses vanishing after prayer, to the mystification of doctors. A member of my minister's previous congregation died, attempts to revive him failed, prayers has said, then he suddenly started breathing again and lived on for several more years. A friend was in America for a year and spent some time in a church. One day, in the middle of prayer, their was a loud cracking sound, the pulpit was split in two and people were filled with an overwhelming desire to praise God. People driving past felt an irresistible desire to pull over and join them, that they couldn't explain.

And miracles tend to happen to those who have faith. If you don't believe, I wouldn't be surprised if you never saw one.

How convenient!

[/quote]

It's the truth. If you don't believe it, that's your choice.

InnerBrat · Post by **InnerBrat** » 2003-04-21 12:50pm

Jonathan wrote:
Durandal wrote:
Jonathan wrote:God is incapable of evil acts, being totally moral. That is why I follow him. You follow your code of morals because you believe it to be right. I follow God because _he_ is my code of morals.
In other words, you appeal to his authority.
In the same sense that asking Einstein about the contents of his paper on the theory of relativity would be an appeal to authority. If someone is the ultimate authority on a matter, then there is no problem with appealing to thier judgement.

Why would your code of morality be any better than God's?

AFAIK, Durandal does not advocate genocide, so I'd follow his code of morality before the Judeo-Chrstian god.

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2003-04-21 12:55pm

Jonathan wrote:Why would your code of morality be any better than God's?

Haven't commited mass genocide yet, YHWH has. (The Great Flood)
Haven't ordered any rape's, YHWH has. ('Virgin woman are war booty' in Numbers 31:1-18 and 'women must marry their rapists' in Deuteronomy 22:28-29)
I have never advocate misoginy, YHWH has. ('Women must be silent' in I Corinthians 14:34-35)
I have never required people to give their daughters to me as burnt offerings, YHWH has. (Jephthah's daughter in Judges 11:30-32, 34, 39)

Sektor31 · Post by **Sektor31** » 2003-04-21 01:05pm

Jonathan wrote:Chronic illnesses vanishing after prayer, to the mystification of doctors.

Exactly how long after prayer?

A member of my minister's previous congregation died, attempts to revive him failed, prayers has said, then he suddenly started breathing again and lived on for several more years.

Died how? Where? When? Elaborate here.

A friend was in America for a year and spent some time in a church. One day, in the middle of prayer, their was a loud cracking sound, the pulpit was split in two and people were filled with an overwhelming desire to praise God. People driving past felt an irresistible desire to pull over and join them, that they couldn't explain.

Where? When? Elaborate.

I'd bet that most just wanted to observe, rather than actually join them. Also, being that you're in a church, I wouldn't be surprised if the people felt that overwhelming desire.

It's the truth. If you don't believe it, that's your choice.

"I'M RIGHT, YOU'RE WRONG, THAT'S IT!!!!!!"

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2003-04-21 01:07pm

Fundamentalist Moron wrote:Chronic illnesses vanishing after prayer, to the mystification of doctors. A member of my minister's previous congregation died, attempts to revive him failed, prayers has said, then he suddenly started breathing again and lived on for several more years. A friend was in America for a year and spent some time in a church. One day, in the middle of prayer, their was a loud cracking sound, the pulpit was split in two and people were filled with an overwhelming desire to praise God. People driving past felt an irresistible desire to pull over and join them, that they couldn't explain.

Ever heard of the Questionable Cause or Post Hoc fallacies?
You must prove that those events were indeed caused by god or prayers.

Fundamentalist Moron wrote:
Durandal wrote:
Fundamentalist Moron wrote:And miracles tend to happen to those who have faith. If you don't believe, I wouldn't be surprised if you never saw one.
How convenient!
It's the truth. If you don't believe it, that's your choice.

Duh, people who have faith are prone to attributing events that are no more then then the result of happenstance to god, prayers or some such bullshit. The burden of proof lrests on you to prove that those events were indeed caused by god. And remember that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Sektor31 · Post by **Sektor31** » 2003-04-21 01:10pm

Jonathan wrote:I'd say that we citizens of Northern Ireland are quite intelligent and well educated. On aerage, we're better educated than the English. And I have friends I implicitly trust who have witnessed miracles. I believe their testimony.

And miracles tend to happen to those who have faith. If you don't believe, I wouldn't be surprised if you never saw one.

Aren't you the people that believe in fairies/elves? Whatever happened to that religion anyway? Replaced by the "more enlightened" Christianity?

I had faith for awhile, and I never saw any miracles. The only "miracles" I saw could've been rationally explained by science.

Jonathan · Post by **Jonathan** » 2003-04-21 02:46pm

Sektor31 wrote:Aren't you the people that believe in fairies/elves? Whatever happened to that religion anyway? Replaced by the "more enlightened" Christianity?

Huh? By you people do you mean the Irish Celts? You do realise that that was quite a while ago, right? And that what you believe isn't decided by where you live?

I had faith for awhile, and I never saw any miracles. The only "miracles" I saw could've been rationally explained by science.

If you say you only had faith for a while, then you never really had faith.

Jonathan · Post by **Jonathan** » 2003-04-21 02:48pm

innerbrat wrote:AFAIK, Durandal does not advocate genocide, so I'd follow his code of morality before the Judeo-Chrstian god.

I don't advocate mass genocide either right now.

And the reason you're giving is that you agree with his morality. You tihnk it's right because you agree with it. That's no justification for saying it's superior.

Jonathan · Post by **Jonathan** » 2003-04-21 03:00pm

Sir Sirius wrote:Haven't commited mass genocide yet, YHWH has. (The Great Flood)

And how does this make your morality any better? You are comparing God's morality and your morality by the standards of your morality, so of course yours is going to seem better. But it's just a circular argument. It's no justification for saying yours is better.

Haven't ordered any rape's, YHWH has. ('Virgin woman are war booty' in Numbers 31:1-18 and 'women must marry their rapists' in Deuteronomy 22:28-29)
God hasn't ordered any rapes. In Numbers, Moses ordered that the virgins not be killed. He never ordered that anyone be forced to have sex or endorsed such behaviour.

The passage in Deuteronomy doesn't order rapes either. It says how the situation should be dealt with. As the joining of two people in sex is regarded as their joining together spiritually, it is right that they marry. It is actually to protect the woman. Otherwise if she married another man, she'd be committing adultery.

I have never advocate misoginy, YHWH has. ('Women must be silent' in I Corinthians 14:34-35)
No, that would by Paul saying that women should be silent in church, which was a cultural thing.

I have never required people to give their daughters to me as burnt offerings, YHWH has. (Jephthah's daughter in Judges 11:30-32, 34, 39)

No he hasn't. God doesn't speak one word in that passage. A guy makes a vow to sacrifice the first thing he sees upon returning from battle. It turns out to be his daughter and she tells him that it is more important to keep his word. She sacrifices herself so that he will not have to break his word. The point of the passage is that keeping our word is important and we should therefore not be rash in making promises as he was. Nowhere does God say 'sacrifice people to me'.

And nowhere have you given an objective reason why your morality is better. Your argument is entirely circular. You are judging the two systems by the standards of your own morality. By that logic, judging the two by God's morality, his will clearly be superior.

Jonathan · Post by **Jonathan** » 2003-04-21 03:04pm

Sektor31 wrote:Exactly how long after prayer?

I don't know. I didn't ask for many details. Why does it matter?

Died how? Where? When? Elaborate here.

I don't know, it's not what the discussion was about.

Where? When? Elaborate.

He told me two years ago and since then, we've lost touch as I went off to uni.

I'd bet that most just wanted to observe, rather than actually join them. Also, being that you're in a church, I wouldn't be surprised if the people felt that overwhelming desire.

There was no sign from outside that there was anything going on. And the feeling was very different to anything they'd experienced before.

"I'M RIGHT, YOU'RE WRONG, THAT'S IT!!!!!!"

I believe it, you don't and I can't prove it to you. That's it.