HOW DO YOU RATE ANIME UNIVERSE TO THE MAIN SCIFI UNIVERSE

[Darth_Shinji]

Dbz characters would get eaten alive by Fist of the North Star, and show no ability to detect technological energy anyway. The Death Star puts out far more energy than every combatant in the Frieza battle combined. Besides which, every Dbz character other than Vegeta, Piccolo, and Mirai Trunks is a complete moron anyway, those three being merely very dumb.

First off, Do you know that the explosion that destroied namek was dilberatly slowed down? And that Frieza has destroied planet's ds stlye before? Or that Vegata in the saiyin saga destroyed a planet? And at least power-level wise Krillain by the latter half of the frieza saga, is stronger than when Vegata showed up in the Saiyin saga...

Krillian at the latter half of the frieza saga, = or > then the Death Star.

Also while first of the north star is cool, it is no were equal to DBZ in terms of raw power (At least the movie and the scenes of the tv show I've seen).

[Totenkopf]

Most Anime series that I have seen fall just above Star Trek in terms of power. Occasionally, one will be as "weak" as B5, but for the most part they appear to be in the B5-ST range, or a little higher. I have never yet seen one that appears to be as powerful as Star Wars, but that does not mean that it does not exist. I just don't watch much Anime.

Clearly.
The Jurai from Tenchi could smack The Empire down effortlessly.

Oh go on! The Jurai use starships made out of wood. WOOD!!!.

Now, when one of these little wooden ships comes face to face with:



it'll simply be fucked. In fact the crew would shit themselves.

[Darth_Shinji]

Macross '84: Do You Remember Love was a movie remake of the original Macross television series. Essentially the same story compressed into two and a half hours, it was done with (then) state of the art animation and beautifully rendered as well. The character and tech designs for the Zentradi were slightly changed to reflect a completely organic technology. As in the original seriers (predating the Robotech modification/combination), the term "protoculture" referred to a pre-militaristic civilisation instead of a bioenergy source. Among other differences: Roy Fokker was killed, and the 50,000 civilians aboard the battlefortress were the sole survivors of the human race after Earth was devestated in the fighting between the Zentradi and Meltrandi (the females).

Okay. I've seen that as Clash (and can't wait to see it as remember love).

Clash Of The Bionoids—PUKE![/i] You have my sympathies for having that butchered-up abortion as your only version of M84. You'll have to look a bit for the original, but you might find "unofficial" copies floating around at convention video tables.

Thanks, I'll try to.

I though something like that had occured, but in some instances dialuge is above visuals, If called a content in both versions and thier is no way of accurate guaging its size, consider it a content (they is a minuinm limit I belive). Their is no way in some instances of accuratly judging these in cartoons. Remeber, when you are looking at something from a distance it is smaller looking.

Dialogue never supercedes visuals. The term is inaccurate in terms of comparison to a real continent on a terrestial planet, but as a colloquialism to describe the only land mass to be found at a gas giant planet...).[/quote] It does when there is no way of telling exactly how big something is suppose to be. Thats why I asked if there was anything to corlate its size. And they could of easily called it a floating island. A content can only be so small to be considered a conteint (I've I remember correctly). But I will conceed this point till I see it (hopefully this weakend). But is there anything to correlate its actaully size?

The artificial sun at Balan, where a major Gamilon base was located, was a fusion satellite located in a fixed geostationary orbit over the site of the base complex itself. It was within very close range of the planet and very clearly a smaller body than Balan itself, but was still much larger than the Argo.

How did the beam affect it? Did it vaprize the sun or caused it to explode?[/quote]

[Q]The wave beam disrupted the structure of the artificial sun, displacing its mass omnidirectionally. The base was destroyed by a rain of molten debris which penetrated to the arsenal, touching off the explosives stored therein.[/Q] Okay thanks.

I know all about Minerva, the planet destroyed by the Gamilons during their first incursion into our star system as related in the series. However, it is quite likely that Minerva was a small planet, probably with less diametre and mass than Pluto and its moon Charon. Also, the Gamilons may have employed multiple weapon strikes to achieve the destruction of the body in question. The task would not have required the amount of energy expended to destroy a terrestial-sized world; particularly if a large proportion of its mass was cometary ice and frozen gases.

Thier is a limit to the size of a planet (I think plouto's it) an even pluto would take tt scale damage.[/quote]

True enough. I merely pointed out that it would take less energy than would be required to destroy a terrestial sized world. No single starship in Gamilon service has weaponry packing that kind of punch, but nothing rules out action by a large number of ship-mounted weapons. [/quote]
True it would take more to destroy a earth-sized planet, But destroing a plotu size planet is still one hell of an accomplishment if it was done with a fleet. And what would you say thier ship numbers range to?

It says the main ship at the end of the second season was destroying/ going to destroy the planet earht.

Ah yes, you're referring to Prince Zordar's supership, deployed in the last episode of Series II. The supership mounted a large energy cannon which was employed to destroy ground targets, but the blasts delivered were not much more powerful than megaton-range weaponry. Commander Todo, head of the Earth Defence Force, was within a reinforced bunker near his headquarters when one of the blasts struck the Earth capital. He survived the blast and emerged out into the ruins of the city afterward.[/Quote} Any other examples of its power?

Thier is also a movie were a fake earth is destroyed. And in the absence of something to measure it dialog has to be taken into consideration

That was the false-Earth projection overlaying the structure of Lord Skaldart's space station I mentioned, from Be Forever Yamato. Only the surface projection was burned away, leaving the actual structure of the complex intact, and in that incident, there was some sort of interaction between the wave beam and whatever forcefields were in use to maintain the projection.[/quote] Okay, I conceed.

But wouldn't some of the weird gizmo's in the series also be taken into consideration?

Of course. But this cannot be taken into account when judging the power of the sole weapon, such as the wave-motion gun.[/quote] I didn't mean it like that. I meant as part of thier overall comprasion to sci-fi.

And what about the hyperion bomb or the missle that was slowly killing the sun in the third season?.

Hmm... the hyperion device falls more into the realm of specialised technology rather than weaponry which is nominally deployed on operational ships of the line. And as I recall, the missile in question (from Series III) induced a slow-motion effect which initiated the premature expansion into a red giant. A side effect of the weapon's detonation after it had missed the target it had been fired at, which I think was a Bolar Commonwealth battleship? It would be informative to have seen the effect of the weapon against a hardened target, as well as a theory as to the mechanism by which it altered the sun's core temperature.[/quote] True about the hyperion bomb, but its still part of the whole compirson thing. And I conceed the other missle.

[Darth_Shinji]

Most Anime series that I have seen fall just above Star Trek in terms of power. Occasionally, one will be as "weak" as B5, but for the most part they appear to be in the B5-ST range, or a little higher. I have never yet seen one that appears to be as powerful as Star Wars, but that does not mean that it does not exist. I just don't watch much Anime.

Clearly.
The Jurai from Tenchi could smack The Empire down effortlessly.

Oh go on! The Jurai use starships made out of wood. WOOD!!!.

Now, when one of these little wooden ships comes face to face with:



it'll simply be fucked. In fact the crew would shit themselves.

While I do not know enought about the jurians to debate this. I do know you are making an over-simplified generalation. Just because something is made or said to be something doesn't neccarly diminish thier shown capailities in sci-fi. Take Jurian trees for example, their are alien children of a goddess (which means right there your simplication could be wrong). And are capabile of generating power-ful force fields (which means it is wrong).

Judge based on shown ability, not on apperences.

[Shadowhawk]

Oh go on! The Jurai use starships made out of wood. WOOD!!!.

And these 'wooden' starships are capable of destroying worlds. Tsunami effortlessly blocked a planet-destroying blast with just a couple Lighthawk Wings, and every Tree of Jurai is capable of producing LHWs. Tsunami can produce 10; Tenchi alone can produce 3; a 3-gem Ryoko, in the manga, can produce 13. Tenchi's were enough to pull him out of a black hole (which Aeka's power was able to withstand for a short while).

[VF5SS]

Wow. That's some damn fine birch.

[Patrick Degan]

It does when there is no way of telling exactly how big something is suppose to be. Thats why I asked if there was anything to corlate its size. And they could of easily called it a floating island. A content can only be so small to be considered a conteint (I've I remember correctly). But I will conceed this point till I see it (hopefully this weakend). But is there anything to correlate its actaully size?

No, because dialogue isn't accurate. When it is the sole source of information, sans visuals or graphics on a data screen, we accept it as the most accurate representation available.

But as for the "floating continent" itself, we can make a determination. I do have the whole five volume WCC Animation Comics reprint of Starblazers series one (along with the Japanese Roman albums). Volume one goes all the way through episode four of the series and uses still frames from the episodes as the panel illustrations. One frame is a still of the Argo flying off the edge of the asteroid, commencing its orbit to line up the wave motion gun on the target. The ship and asteroid are parallel to one another in the shot.

The Argo is roughly 270 metres in length and the ship is flying directly over the edge of the body. We have the edge of the asteroid to provide a scalar relationship between ship and body, which by simple measurement performed with a longer-distance shot of the asteroid shows it to be about 8.14 kilometres in length. The mountainous rise penetrating the jungle layer would extend up to an altitude of 3.25 km. from the plane of the asteroid's surface; a respectable height for a mountain. But the lateral measure of the asteroid shows it to be a fairly small body and much closer to an island rather than a continent. This is why I tend to regard the term "floating continent" as a colloquialism.

True it would take more to destroy a earth-sized planet, But destroing a plotu size planet is still one hell of an accomplishment if it was done with a fleet. And what would you say thier ship numbers range to?

In episode 10 in which the Argo was caught within the Galactic Whirlpool (which is also when Gen. Lysis assumes command at Balan), Mark Venture at one point counted about 3000 ships in the force pursuing the Star Force (but he was in a state of very high excitement at the moment —this was a green crew, remember), and this appeared to be entirely battleships and destroyers and not fighters and auxilliary craft. However, none of their ship mounted weapons were any more powerful than standard lasers. In destroying Minerva, the Gamilons must have employed missiles or very powerful bombs to do the job. The most powerful beam weapon deployed by the Gamilons in the war was their version of the wave-motion gun, the Desslok Cannon. In action, however, it did not exhibit much more power than that of the Argo's superweapon.

Of course, in Series III, it appears that the Gamilon fleet is much upgraded in both numbers and quality in comparison to the fleet they fielded in the Earth/Gamilon War.

Any other examples of its power? (the energy cannon on Zordar's supership)

There is a contradiction between movie and series on this one. According to episode 26 of Series II, the blasts from the energy cannon on the supership were no greater than the yields you'd get from multimegaton nuclear warheads. Possibly lesser, since the Earth Defence Headquarters building survived largely intact through a direct strike on the Earth capital. In the movie Arrivederchi Yamato however, the blasts were powerful enough to gouge large amounts of material from the lunar surface, blasting them up to orbital altitude (but then, lunar gravity is only 1/6th Earth normal, so less energy would be required in this operation). The series depiction is the one which would count as canon in the main Yamato continuity line (especially as in Arrivederchi Yamato the ship goes down in a kamikaze strike stopping Zordar —gotta love them Japanese).

[lgot]

The problem to face Tenchi Muyo universe is even the Jurains ships, which they say are not a lot but just to face Washu and Sasami/Tsuname. There is not meaning superpowerful technology when Washu comes aboard. And to say that Sasami is probally able to make even the emperor to be a good boy, Tsuname have powers to hold life, death, dbzs, all that.
We do not even need to think the Jurai technology with those two around.

[consequences]

Also while first of the north star is cool, it is no were equal to DBZ in terms of raw power (At least the movie and the scenes of the tv show I've seen).

Raw power? Fuck raw power, the Dbz crew IS a bunch of complete idiots and you know it. Any of the Dbz fighters would let another fighter go hand to hand with them before trying to vaporise them, and would go splut shortly afterwards. Dbz fighters show no intelligence, little skill, and pathetic creativity. If the Death Star blew up Dbz earth, every character but Goku would die in the vacuum of space, because none of them have ever bothered to learn Instant Transmission, the single most useful technique in the show. The Dbz universe has the potential to be the most powerful, if any of the characters ever got a clue, an if it didn't happen during the 20 plus years that the series spanned, I don't see it happening anytime soon.

[Shadowhawk]

My, someone sounds bitter.

You show me scenes from FotNS that depict the fighters blowing up planets, puching opponents through mountainsides, or teleporting across vast distances instantly, and FotNS might stand a chance against DBZ.
How intelligent a fighter fights won't matter an iota if he can't hurt his vastly-more-powerful opponent (sounds rather similar to STvSW).

As for DBZ, finesse isn't generally a quality needed in fights involving such enormous powers and speeds. When you can throw off the destructive equivalent of tacnukes at a rate of several per second, martial arts style becomes little concern. It's all about delivering the biggest/most focused ki blast or packing the most ki behind a punch or kick.

As for detecting/stopping the DS or other technological planetbusters...one can make the argument that the reverse is also true. You give DBZ the element of surprise, and they kick your ass. You give SW the element of surprise, and you piss Goku off by destroying Earth, thus effectively committing suicide (Goku convinces someone to give him a day-pass to the normal world or he just breaks the rules and does it himself, jumps to Namek, wishes Earth back, jumps to Earth, gets a spacesuit, jumps to DS, blows it up, jumps back to Earth, eats dinner).

[consequences]

Yes, I do get bitter when newbies start mouthing off about how DBZ is the most powerful series ever, because they don't know better, and don't want to learn.
Fighters don't need to blow up planets to kill their opponent, when a simple touch means that they explode at the instant you desire. Every single member of the Z team has shown a tendency to play with opponents in hand to hand at some point. With their lousy skills, any idiot who can suppress their chi can walk right up behind them completely unnoticed.

You still haven't addressed the point of them being morons, and what's to stop someone else from using the Dragonballs? One thing you forget, no Kami/Dende/Guru, no Dragonballs, and since any of them would have died from decompression, Goku has nothing to work with.
There is nothing stoppin any interested power from performing YEARS of reconnaisance before acting, in fact, this is what Doctor Gero did in the series, without the Z fighters ever getting a clue in the original timeline. Besides, all that is needed is a pretty basic bioweapon, and the entire cast drops dead without ever powering up.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Gundam Universe:

Of all the SF universes depicted in movies/TV, Gundam is perhaps the most realistic i.e. the one which depicts the most likely future of man in space. Humanity has no FTL travel, no exotic technologies such as energy shields, artificial gravity or teleportation, no contact with alien races, no extrasolar colonies. Man's civilisation is entirely contained within the boundaries of our own solar system, with artificial space colonies located around every planet and in asteroidal and cometary orbits (all of which rely on rotational gravity for the survival of the populations) as well as colonies within pressure domes located on Mars, Luna, Pluto, Charon, and the Gallilean moons around Jupiter and Saturn. The spaceships are all reaction-drive and do not even have rotational gravity. The fighter craft and Gundam mecha are mostly armed with missiles and slug-throwers. There are some energy weapons, but none which can pump out energies greater than kiloton-range blasts. The most powerful weapons in the Gundam universe are thermonuclear warheads not much different than what we have today.

No offence, but your kinda fucking wrong. In Gundam, the Sides are only based around the Lagrange points of Earth. There are colonies on the moon. That's it. The farthest they've ever gotten is Jupiter, and that's only for the Jupiter Energy Fleet. There's only the Earth Sphere. Nothing else.

On Tenchi Muyo, it depends whether we're talking about the OVA or the first TV series universe. The OVA universe seems to be far more powerful than the one in the first TV series.

In the OVA, the entire Universe has been explored, and the Galaxy Police's jurisdiction is 60% of it (Ref: Tenchi Muyo! GXP [TV series in the OVA continuity]).

Yes, the Jurai can kick the Empire's ass. They have the power of a Goddess behind them.

Forgive me, I'm fucking tired and for some reason, these kind of threads bother me (maybe because I'm very defencive of certain anime).

[KhyronTheBackstabber]

The SDF-1 is one of the most powerful ships ever dreamed up. In the novels of Robotech writen by Jack McKinney it says:

"All the Zentraedi knew for certain was that the ship contained enough power to destroy whole star systems, and rip the very fabric of space and time. So the armada paced the battle fortress, watching and waiting."
Book #3, Homecoming, page 46, paragraph 6.

The Zentraedi fleet has millions of ships, and can perform a BDZ in a matter of seconds. The Zentraedi awnser to the Robotech Masters, who are very powerful, and they are all afraid of the Invid.

I haven't read the Sentinal books, but a friend of mine, who is a huge ST, and SW fan, read them, and he told me that the SDF-3 is the ultimate ship. This has my curiostity peeked because as far as he was concerned nothing could beat a SSD or the Entrerprise E, untill the SDF-3 that is.

So all in all, I'd say Robotech stacks up pretty nicely to other Sci-Fi.[/quote]

[Eleas]

The SDF-1 is one of the most powerful ships ever dreamed up. In the novels of Robotech writen by Jack McKinney it says:

"All the Zentraedi knew for certain was that the ship contained enough power to destroy whole star systems, and rip the very fabric of space and time. So the armada paced the battle fortress, watching and waiting."
Book #3, Homecoming, page 46, paragraph 6.

The Zentraedi fleet has millions of ships, and can perform a BDZ in a matter of seconds. The Zentraedi awnser to the Robotech Masters, who are very powerful, and they are all afraid of the Invid.

I haven't read the Sentinal books, but a friend of mine, who is a huge ST, and SW fan, read them, and he told me that the SDF-3 is the ultimate ship. This has my curiostity peeked because as far as he was concerned nothing could beat a SSD or the Entrerprise E, untill the SDF-3 that is.

So all in all, I'd say Robotech stacks up pretty nicely to other Sci-Fi.

No offense, but if someone mentions an SSD and the Enterprise-E in the same breath (especially in a military context), I'd go elsewhere for my information.

[Patrick Degan]

Of all the SF universes depicted in movies/TV, Gundam is perhaps the most realistic i.e. the one which depicts the most likely future of man in space. Humanity has no FTL travel, no exotic technologies such as energy shields, artificial gravity or teleportation, no contact with alien races, no extrasolar colonies. Man's civilisation is entirely contained within the boundaries of our own solar system, with artificial space colonies located around every planet and in asteroidal and cometary orbits (all of which rely on rotational gravity for the survival of the populations) as well as colonies within pressure domes located on Mars, Luna, Pluto, Charon, and the Gallilean moons around Jupiter and Saturn. The spaceships are all reaction-drive and do not even have rotational gravity. The fighter craft and Gundam mecha are mostly armed with missiles and slug-throwers. There are some energy weapons, but none which can pump out energies greater than kiloton-range blasts. The most powerful weapons in the Gundam universe are thermonuclear warheads not much different than what we have today.

No offence, but your kinda fucking wrong. In Gundam, the Sides are only based around the Lagrange points of Earth. There are colonies on the moon. That's it. The farthest they've ever gotten is Jupiter, and that's only for the Jupiter Energy Fleet. There's only the Earth Sphere. Nothing else.

Which series, however? I caught episodes of Gundam 0083 and Mobile Suit Gundam which seemed to indicate settlement out as far as Pluto.

Perhaps I'm mistaken. But not in the essential fact that all the series are located entirely within our solar system and on those grounds are certainly the more realistic SF to be found in a major media franchise.

[Shadowhawk]

Yes, I do get bitter when newbies start mouthing off about how DBZ is the most powerful series ever, because they don't know better, and don't want to learn.

Odd, I don't remember saying that DBZ is the most powerful series ever.
And I don't quite see what the number of posts I have on this board has to do with anything. One would think the amount of anime I've watched would matter, not how many posts I have.
I've watched quite a bit of anime.

Fighters don't need to blow up planets to kill their opponent, when a simple touch means that they explode at the instant you desire.

Yet fighters that can blow up planets to kill their opponents are, by and large, more powerful than fighters that cannot blow up planets to kill their opponents. Same reasoning behind saying the DS1 is more powerful than a Barrett .50 sniper rifle. Sure, the sniper rifle can pulp someone's head without a problem, but it can't blow up a planet.

Every single member of the Z team has shown a tendency to play with opponents in hand to hand at some point. With their lousy skills, any idiot who can suppress their chi can walk right up behind them completely unnoticed.

That's 'ki'. You're supposed to be an anime expert here, aren't you?
And you still haven't made any sort of argument about how their comparatively poor fighting skills somehow nulls their power or speed.

You still haven't addressed the point of them being morons,

Because it barely factors into the equation.

and what's to stop someone else from using the Dragonballs? One thing you forget, no Kami/Dende/Guru, no Dragonballs, and since any of them would have died from decompression, Goku has nothing to work with.

So, what, Earth and Namek are already destroyed in this situation now?

There is nothing stoppin any interested power from performing YEARS of reconnaisance before acting, in fact, this is what Doctor Gero did in the series, without the Z fighters ever getting a clue in the original timeline.

Fat lot of good it did him. He thought he could take them out with 19 and himself. He had to activate the other two when his reconnaisance proved lacking. The mistake killed him.
And having forty years to observe the Z Senshi isn't going to help, say, the Gundam universe kill any of them.

Besides, all that is needed is a pretty basic bioweapon, and the entire cast drops dead without ever powering up.

You seem to be moving the goalposts. This thread is effectively about the powerful anime universes against the powerful sci-fi universes. I mentioned that DBZ could bitchslap damn near anything short of the Culture. You bitch about your dislike of DBZ, mention their poor fighting styles, and bring up FOtNS. You do not actually counter my statement.
When I call you on your whining, you again bitch about poor fighting styles and effective cluelessness without providing any sort of argument that counters their tremendous power. And, now, you bring up biological weapons. Ignoring the fact that biological weapons are far from 'basic' and suffer from all sorts of problems, there are characters involved that would not be affected by biological weapons (Ubuu), that can heal (Dende), would have reduced effectiveness (Juuhachigou, Piccolo), and could be completely countered by a Wish.

[Eleas]

That's 'ki'. You're supposed to be an anime expert here, aren't you?
And you still haven't made any sort of argument about how their comparatively poor fighting skills somehow nulls their power or speed.

Uh, Eric, Ki isn't originally from Anime, you know. It's a concept, the concept of bodily and spiritual energy. And, when spelled in Western lettering, the word is as often rendered as "chi" as it is as "ki".

In general, trying to pin down a definite Western spelling for Japanese words is an exercise in futility.

[phongn]

That's 'ki'. You're supposed to be an anime expert here, aren't you?
And you still haven't made any sort of argument about how their comparatively poor fighting skills somehow nulls their power or speed.

Uh, Eric, Ki isn't originally from Anime, you know. It's a concept, the concept of bodily and spiritual energy. And, when spelled in Western lettering, the word is as often rendered as "chi" as it is as "ki".

In general, trying to pin down a definite Western spelling for Japanese words is an exercise in futility.

Indeed. Romanization of Japanese words is not set in stone (chi, ki being the example given above).

[consequences]

Look, Dragonball just annoys me sometimes, and I have heard too many arguments saying that it could kick anyone's ass before.
If you want a Sci-Fi universe that wil utterly annihilate Dbz, Lensman will do the trick quite nicely.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Which series, however? I caught episodes of Gundam 0083 and Mobile Suit Gundam which seemed to indicate settlement out as far as Pluto.

All of them. In every one, there's only the Earth Sphere. Other than mentioning the Jupiter Energy Fleet, they don't regularly go beyond the orbit of the moon, and only some Zeon remnants go into the asteroid belt (Mars is ignored except for a passing reference in Gundam Wing, which isn't in the UC timeline.)

Perhaps I'm mistaken. But not in the essential fact that all the series are located entirely within our solar system and on those grounds are certainly the more realistic SF to be found in a major media franchise.

Yeah, you're right.

Check out 0080, BTW. It's great.

[Mr Bean]

No Cowboy Beboop is suprior!


And the Giant Mech thing, well Tecnicaly I don't see that becoming Fesiable any time soon(Likewise "Beam swords")

[consequences]

giant mechs aren't feasible, the effort needed to provide mobility and effective armor for something human shaped means that tanks with as much firepower and armor can be constructed for a fraction of the cost of giant robots. still, they look damn cool.
Cowboy Bebop is superior to every anime series in one way; every character who has seriously attempted to kill Spike is dead, therefore Spike can kill anyone. *gets repeatedly hit by tasers* Agghhh, sorry about that got infected by Darkstar, I'm okay now.
On a completely different note, Dragonball Z, a completely separate entity from the original dragonball, may be the most powerful universe in sheer energy output. This does not mean they are the best, the coolest, or the most likely to win a fight. I have not been trying to say that other universes are more powerful, but that they have a better than even chance of killing the Z fighters by attacking their weaknesses, since the Z fighters have never done anything to protect themselves from anything different than their normal slugfests.