Islam at its finest

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-04-21 07:07pm

dress thy links

Big shocker here; it looks like that if anything is going to prevent the installation of a decent, humane government in Iraq, it's going to be *gasp* Islam.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2003-04-21 07:14pm

Fundies at loose, nothing new with that. Islam in itself is not much more harmful than any other major religion. Countries like Turkey and.. well.. Turkey

have managed to keep it under control, like we nowadays do with Christianity, although with various levels of success.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-04-21 07:17pm

No, Islam is not more or less harmful than Christianity. They're equally harmful, Islam is just harder to control, apparently.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2003-04-21 07:31pm

All sects and cults are inherently dangerous...

Soontir C'boath · Post by **Soontir C'boath** » 2003-04-21 07:33pm

"We don't want a formal democracy that will give Iraqis the right to say what they want but the government will do what it wants," Sheik Muhammad Fartousi told

WTF???!!!! I'm surprise they didn't stone this guy.

Cyaround,
JAson

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-04-21 09:07pm

right, like we need another rabid fundy government screaming jihad.

I dunno bout you, but I dont like spending 100 billion dollars a decade to smack these guys around. . .

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-04-21 09:35pm

This is one thing I was very afraid of. We'd liberate the Iraqis from Saddam just so they could start a bigoted theocratic government, and we'd sit back and let it happen because religion is a sacred cow over here.

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2003-04-21 09:41pm

The tragedy of democracy is that the votes of the irrational and the stupid have equal value. There is much truth to the idea that a million votes for a stupid idea do not make it any less a stupid idea.

Publius

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-04-21 09:55pm

If I'm not mistaken, 40 percent of the population is Sunni, and would probably oppose such a government. I would hope that at least 10-15 percent of the Shi'ite population would be intelligent enough to oppose it, as well.

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2003-04-21 10:32pm

In all honesty, it’s not their suggestion that Iraq adopt Sharia law that most frightens me. I seriously doubt that anywhere near a majority of the country – Shiite or otherwise – devoutly hopes for a government founded entirely on conservative Islam. Unlike Pakistan, Afghanistan, or Egypt - where much of the population suffers and is thus fed warped, pseudo-religious claptrap as a means of mollification -, Iraq has at least tasted progress sometime in the past thirty years. No matter how devout personally, few Iraqis will be willing to surrender their relative freedoms in relation to other members of the Arab world. Remember, women constitute a stronger minority in Iraq than anywhere else in the Middle East. Numerous female professionals still exist within the borders of the modern Iraqi state. You’re not going to be able to shove any kind of repressive government down upon them without a good, hard fight. Never mind the men who enjoy living in the Western style – you know, with electric appliances and French automobiles? No. Islamofascist in Iraq as a force of government doesn’t concern me at all. If worse comes to absolute worst, the Army will step in and divert such factions before they seize administrative power. And that’s assuming we’ve got a complete cultural reversal on our hands – which we most certainly don’t. What we should be worried about is part of the message.

Conservative Islam appeals in the here and now. Why? Because it’s a voice against America. Many Iraqis are now wary of George Bush and American interests. They understand that their country will be rebuilt. Hell, they understand that Western companies mean money. But they also agree – in principle – with the criticism that an Iraqi government should control rebuilding. Never mind that there isn’t one. It’s that there should be one. Even if it’s imperfect. And that means ASAP. Iraqis also understand the need for law and order. That doesn’t mean they like American troops. It doesn’t mean they like American bases. It most certainly doesn’t mean they’ve forgotten that the Americans defeated the preexisting government and the country that it represented – albeit via duress. Anyway, I think you see my point. It’s the message and its popularity I’d be worried about far more than the guise under which it is preached.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-04-21 11:54pm

Durandal wrote:This is one thing I was very afraid of. We'd liberate the Iraqis from Saddam just so they could start a bigoted theocratic government, and we'd sit back and let it happen because religion is a sacred cow over here.

We forcibly dismantled the Japanese Emperor-worship and other fanaticisms.

We rule now, and sadly the best way that will work it dictatorially until they anti-American groups are pacified and Iraq begins to grow.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-04-22 12:12am

While I believe Islamic rule it's a road to destruction, Iraq has not exactly been well served by decades of secular government.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-04-22 12:20am

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Durandal wrote:This is one thing I was very afraid of. We'd liberate the Iraqis from Saddam just so they could start a bigoted theocratic government, and we'd sit back and let it happen because religion is a sacred cow over here.
We forcibly dismantled the Japanese Emperor-worship and other fanaticisms.

Japan was already a highly industrialized, well-educated society. Their fanaticism was as much nationalistic as religious; if Saburo Sakai is to be believed, most of the rank and file with who he came into contact didn't take the religious aspect that seriously. I find it highly dubious to assume any kind of equivalency between WW2 Japan and Iraq.

We rule now, and sadly the best way that will work it dictatorially until they anti-American groups are pacified and Iraq begins to grow.

Growth and rebuilding programs must be initiated immediately, with or without pacification. If they are witheld until pacification, you run the risk of creating a Catch-22 similar to that which exists in the Palestinian occupied territories: the people hate you because you keep them down, and you won't stop keeping them down until they stop hating you.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-04-22 12:26am

Argh. Can someone correct my embarrasing grammatical error in the title?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-04-22 12:28am

Durran Korr wrote:Argh. Can someone correct my embarrasing grammatical error in the title?

Done. Glad you noticed that on your own; I've sort of resigned myself to most people being ignorant of the proper use of apostrophes.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-04-22 12:30am

Danke. Ever since I saw this cartoon (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif) I've been trying to do a little better with my apostrophe usage.

Rubberanvil · Post by **Rubberanvil** » 2003-04-22 02:15am

Darth Wong wrote: Growth and rebuilding programs must be initiated immediately, with or without pacification. If they are witheld until pacification, you run the risk of creating a Catch-22 similar to that which exists in the Palestinian occupied territories: the people hate you because you keep them down, and you won't stop keeping them down until they stop hating you.

The coalition is already in a Catch-22 as it is and no way of getting out of it without the world crying foul.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2003-04-22 11:08am

Who here is suprised? I'm not and I don't think anyone else is either. Hopefully, the administration will prevent it from going Islamofascist, since Iraq going theocratic could go against Americas interests in the region (I say could, not will. After all, Saudi Arabia is the worst of the bunch and Bush regularly has coffee on his ranch with the House of Saud).

Yogi · Post by **Yogi** » 2003-04-22 01:34pm

Now is the time to send Christian fundies over to convert the population. No matter which group looses, it'll be fun to warch them try to tear each other apart.

Falcon · Post by **Falcon** » 2003-04-22 06:48pm

Darth Wong wrote: Japan was already a highly industrialized, well-educated society. Their fanaticism was as much nationalistic as religious; if Saburo Sakai is to be believed, most of the rank and file with who he came into contact didn't take the religious aspect that seriously. I find it highly dubious to assume any kind of equivalency between WW2 Japan and Iraq.

The populations of both nations were willing to die recklessly in suicide attacks and both populations believed America was the greatest evil that ever existed.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-04-22 06:52pm

Falcon wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Japan was already a highly industrialized, well-educated society. Their fanaticism was as much nationalistic as religious; if Saburo Sakai is to be believed, most of the rank and file with who he came into contact didn't take the religious aspect that seriously. I find it highly dubious to assume any kind of equivalency between WW2 Japan and Iraq.
The populations of both nations were willing to die recklessly in suicide attacks and both populations believed America was the greatest evil that ever existed.

Bullshit. Japan was actually attempting to emulate the western world, dumb-ass. They fought America because it was interfering with their interests, not because they thought it was some kind of spiritual evil.

As for the suicide attacks, they were willing to use them because they were desperate, not because they thought they would be entitled to 72 naked virgins. Do not confuse a similar outcome with a similar cause. If America was being slowly eradicated by super-powerful aliens and suicide attacks were the only weapon that worked, Americans would start doing it and be hailed as heroes.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-04-22 06:57pm

Do not confuse a similar outcome with a similar cause. If America was being slowly eradicated by super-powerful aliens and suicide attacks were the only weapon that worked, Americans would start doing it and be hailed as heroes.

Like in ID4.

Falcon · Post by **Falcon** » 2003-04-22 06:58pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Falcon wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Japan was already a highly industrialized, well-educated society. Their fanaticism was as much nationalistic as religious; if Saburo Sakai is to be believed, most of the rank and file with who he came into contact didn't take the religious aspect that seriously. I find it highly dubious to assume any kind of equivalency between WW2 Japan and Iraq.
The populations of both nations were willing to die recklessly in suicide attacks and both populations believed America was the greatest evil that ever existed.
Bullshit. Japan was actually attempting to emulate the western world, dumb-ass. They fought America because it was interfering with their interests, not because they thought it was some kind of spiritual evil.

As for the suicide attacks, they were willing to use them because they were desperate, not because they thought they would be entitled to 72 naked virgins. Do not confuse a similar outcome with a similar cause. If America was being slowly eradicated by super-powerful aliens and suicide attacks were the only weapon that worked, Americans would start doing it and be hailed as heroes.

I didn't say they fought America because it was some sort of spiritual evil. I said that they used suicide attacks against us and they thought we were a horrible people. Many of them were told that America would eraticate them, torture them, etc They fought to the death, not because of some virgins, but because they were misled about us and what we would do to them if we captured them\won the war.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-04-22 07:03pm

Falcon wrote:I didn't say they fought America because it was some sort of spiritual evil.

Then your post was irrelevant to the original point, since it specifically related to religion. Perhaps the word "Islam" in the fucking THREAD TITLE escaped your attention.

I said that they used suicide attacks against us and they thought we were a horrible people. Many of them were told that America would eraticate them, torture them, etc They fought to the death, not because of some virgins, but because they were misled about us and what we would do to them if we captured them\won the war.

Which is typical of nations in warfare using propaganda against one another, and which is much different from the religious motivations under discussion. Concession accepted.

Falcon · Post by **Falcon** » 2003-04-22 07:12pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Falcon wrote:I didn't say they fought America because it was some sort of spiritual evil.
Then your post was irrelevant to the original point, since it specifically related to religion. Perhaps the word "Islam" in the fucking THREAD TITLE escaped your attention.
I said that they used suicide attacks against us and they thought we were a horrible people. Many of them were told that America would eraticate them, torture them, etc They fought to the death, not because of some virgins, but because they were misled about us and what we would do to them if we captured them\won the war.
Which is typical of nations in warfare using propaganda against one another, and which is much different from the religious motivations under discussion. Concession accepted.

I was mearly pointing out that their behavior has some similarities, even if the motivations behind that behavior is different.