french vs german popularity

[Enforcer Talen]

why is it the french are so much more disliked in the americas then the germans, when they have almsot the same views on the iraq war?

[Hamel]

Oh shit

It should be obvious~ the germans don't have a negative stereotype put on them

[Colonel Olrik]

Germans work more.

Germans are cooler.

German accent sounds like you're punching your opponent in the face. French accent sounds like you're inviting him to make love to you (not necessarily a bad thing, if it's a cute girl).

German football teams don't suck.

German people dislikes Le Pen. French people actually vote for him.

Bona > Paris.

Germans don't treat their bread like trash, and if that somehow happens they will surely not eat it afterwards.

Did I mention that french girls are very, very nice?

[Justin]

The Germans never swore eternal brotherhood with us like the French did after the revolutionary war (then promptly tried to sell us out to the British in return for the French getting their carribean colonies back from the British) and again after world war 2. Both times we were dumb enough to believe them and not long afterword both times they stabbed us in the back. That tends to generate more than a little resentment. In the first case it almost led to war, especially after the XYZ affair (it did lead to an undeclared naval war, as in "Oops, I just blew away 20 of your merchant ships, my bad!!").

The Germans on the other hand never made any bones about hating our guts (see world wars 1&2) Oddly enough, this has generated alot more respect for hard fighting Germans than for duplicitous, cheese eating surrender monkey French. At least with the Germans you know where you stand. The French don't really like anybody who isn't French (especially Anglos, who've whooped their asses time and again through history).

[paladin]

Germany does not take opposite view point from US just to be different unlike France.

[Vympel]

Thank God for France
Matt Taibbi

Russia Journal

Seldom has an international political situation made it so easy for the nations of the world to see exactly where they stand with the United States. On the eve of a long-desired insane military adventure, the United States is facing nearly identical opposition from three key "allies": France, Germany and Russia. "Practically identical," in fact, is how President Vladimir Putin characterized the Iraq position of the three countries, all of which happen to sit on the U.N. Security Council.

But you wouldn’t know that from reading American newspapers. In the past few days, the American media have erupted in a veritable volcano of pure, unadulterated hatred, and virtually all of it has been reserved for France. The vitriol currently being heaved France’s way, in fact – it’s even going on this very minute, as I write this here in my apartment, as Fox News spokesfascist Sean Hannity blasts the old country on my TV – is of a rare and spectacular variety. Short of a call for an actual invasion of France, it couldn’t get any worse. Here is a brief sample of the treatment France is getting this week:

On Tuesday, the New York Post ran a cover story that featured stark pictures of white gravestones at Normandy, under the gigantic headline: "Sacrifice." The subhead? "They Died for France, but France Has Forgotten."

In the article inside, vituperative columnist Steve Dunleavy reveals: "I feel an unnatural glow of rage – I want to kick the collective butts of France." In a column entitled "Vote France Off the Island," the self-professed arch-priest of the New World Order, New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman, said he wished the Security Council was chosen by fan vote, like the N.B.A. all-star team, so that he could have a chance to "vote France off the Council and replace it with India." House Speaker Dennis Hastert has floated the idea of introducing a bill that would place import tariffs on French wine and mineral water, and would put "bright orange warning labels" (as he explained it gleefully) on French wines clarified with bovine blood. Hastert’s comments were broadcast repeatedly on TV news programs and talk shows.

And how has Russia been treated? There’s been scarcely a bad word for Russia in the major news media. Apart from a distantly unkind article by old friend Matthew Fisher in the Toronto Star (in which he compared Putin’s maneuverings in Europe to Lenin’s Machiavellian foreign policy), Russia’s Iraq position has yet to become a major issue in the United States. That’s partly because it’s not yet clear exactly what position Putin will take. Indeed, many saw the White House’s decision to include Chechen groups on its official list of terrorist organizations as a sign that a deal for Russia’s support had been struck. But even after Putin said that he would be inclined to go along with France or even "act alone" in using a veto to stop a premature invasion, the press left Putin alone.

There are a number of reasons for this, some obvious and some not so obvious.

One of the not-so-obvious reasons has to do with numbers. From a propaganda standpoint, it is probably not desirable, in this case, to demonize numerous political opponents. Not only would that strain the attention span of the American media consumer, intellectual giant though he is, but it would actually draw attention to the fact that there are many countries and, more importantly, many people opposing the war.

In a way, in fact, France’s opposition to the war is actually a propaganda boon to the Bush administration. Despite the fact that recent surveys show that the people of virtually every nation except the United States overwhelmingly oppose a war without U.N. approval, the decision by France and Germany to threaten to use their Security Council vetoes has allowed the American media to create the illusion that opposition to the war is concentrated solely in the State Department offices of those countries.

Instead of hammering 71 percent of the world population for getting in the way, the media can focus on a single inviting target – France – and try to blast it, Death Star style, into a million pieces of space debris. Fortunately for Russians, Americans do not know them well enough to hate them the way they hate – and always have hated – the French.

Actually, it’s inaccurate to say all Americans feel this way. Let’s just say a certain segment of America hates and always has hated France, a segment that can generally be described as the conservative political establishment.

France drove Richard Nixon crazy, for instance: He equated it in his mind with the wine-and-cheese parties of the chic New York intellectual types who were a primary focus of his hatred and paranoia.

The conservative ruling class sees France as a den of queers and traitors who flee at the first sign of danger and go out of their way to maintain a refined, discriminating culture that stands as a permanent indictment of Middle American tastes. Fueling this antipathy even further is the sense Vulgar America undeniably has that, even if it wanted to win France over, it would still lack something, that proverbial je ne sais quoi, to make it happen.

If you can imagine Donald Rumsfeld secretly trying and failing to keep a souffle from falling, then you can understand where that surprising intensity comes from when Americans complain about France not being grateful enough to us for "saving their necks in double-ya double-ya two."

France is also a more convenient scapegoat than Germany and Russia for other reasons. Russia’s opposition to the war can be attacked as conniving, cynical, self-interested and even treacherous (given all the aid we’ve sent its way in the last decade). Germany’s can be attacked on the grounds that it proves that country still has great-power ambitions. But when France opposes a war, you can call it cowardice, squeamishness and a disinclination to act decisively – not something you can say about traditional military super-aggressors such as Russia and Germany.

Dressed in a beret and Marcel Marceau makeup, opposition to the war makes a nice snack for media hawks such as Bill O’Reilly. Russia, with its missile stocks and its tough-talking Napoleonic president, doesn’t go down as well. It should be thankful it doesn’t.

I thought that article was pretty funny.

[Joe]

Germany and Russia do not regularly tell us to go fuck ourselves. France does.

[Sea Skimmer]

Germany gave America every bit of aid it would have gotten with total political support. I'd say that places them well below France.

[Durandal]

We dislike the French more because they're just so ... well, French.

[TrailerParkJawa]

I think because most Americans who have interacted with Germans find them to be less arogant than the French. Also the French, right or wrong, are perceived by Americans to have a poor work ethic where as Germans are viewed to be very industrious.

[Darth Wong]

I think because most Americans who have interacted with Germans find them to be less arogant than the French. Also the French, right or wrong, are perceived by Americans to have a poor work ethic where as Germans are viewed to be very industrious.

Germans are arrogant, but I suspect the difference in perception stems from the American belief that the Germans have some right to be arrogant about certain things, while they feel that the French don't.

[Enforcer Talen]

I am reminded of the movie patton; one of his speeches talks about the american propensity for preferring a winner. germany and russia have had a good number of wins, while france has not as well.

[Durandal]

I am reminded of the movie patton; one of his speeches talks about the american propensity for preferring a winner. germany and russia have had a good number of wins, while france has not as well.

Don't forget that Americans also detest running away, something the French are famous for.

"Rommel you clever bastard, I read your book!"

What a great movie.

[Publius]

There has been a degree of distrust and dislike for the French in American society since the Washington Administration (the most prominent example this position being Timothy Pickering, leader of the Federalist Party), whereas Germany as an entity did not exist until 1871, in the Grant Administration. The French have figured into American politics longer than the Germans or the Russians, and have much greater emotional baggage.

Recall the outrageous antics of Edmond Charles Édouard Genêt, whose behaviour led to his being declared persona non grata. Other diplomatic agents of the French Republic's Directory were similarly cavalier in their regard for the concerns of the Federal Government, and attempted to interfere with American politics (the Directory attempted to secure the election to the Presidency of Thomas Jefferson); Edmund Randolph's questionable French connexions led to his disgrace and resignation as Secretary of State. Perhaps most memorable would be the celebrated XYZ Affair, during the Adams Administration.

Furthermore, the German states were predominantly Continental powers, and therefore did not much affect American foreign policy or business, whereas France, Britain, Spain, Portugal, and the Netherlands were colonial powers and could and often did directly affect the United States, and American business interests (e.g., the Quasi War during the Adams Administration, French ambitions to reclaim their lost colonial empire in North America).

Finally, France is much easier to mock than Germany or Russia. Especially in terms of military prowess -- French misfortunes are in general much more memorable or otherwise spectacular, and therefore more easily lend themselves to caricature and parody. As noted, it is more difficult to call Germany or Russia "cowardly" or "effeminate" (the fact that Germany's war record is 0-2 notwithstanding).

Publius

[Publius]

I am reminded of the movie patton; one of his speeches talks about the american propensity for preferring a winner. germany and russia have had a good number of wins, while france has not as well.

Don't forget that Americans also detest running away, something the French are famous for.

"Rommel you clever bastard, I read your book!"

What a great movie.

Incidentally, the quote is "Rommel, you magnificent bastard, I read your book!"

Publius

[phongn]

Germany gave America every bit of aid it would have gotten with total political support. I'd say that places them well below France.

Below France?

[Gandalf]

I would have thought the 2 World Wars would create more resentment towards Germany.

"Don't mention the war"
- Bail Fawlty

[Enforcer Talen]

it showed they could fight well. always a bonus.

[Gandalf]

it showed they could fight well. always a bonus.

Not when they're fighting well against US.

[Darth Wong]

It's the macho code. The macho code says that a man who would rather die on his feet than live on his knees is always more honourable and admirable than a man who would live on his knees.

It's a rather twisted code, since in this case, it means we're supposed to show favour to brutal racial supremacist butchers (honestly, if we can't let go of WW2, then why the fuck are we buddy-buddy with the Germans?!?!?).

[jegs2]

For me it's easy. My dad's mother was full German (died when my dad was three). I don't have any French relatives that I know of...

[TrailerParkJawa]

I think because most Americans who have interacted with Germans find them to be less arogant than the French. Also the French, right or wrong, are perceived by Americans to have a poor work ethic where as Germans are viewed to be very industrious.

Germans are arrogant, but I suspect the difference in perception stems from the American belief that the Germans have some right to be arrogant about certain things, while they feel that the French don't.

I can only speak for myself, sure there are some arrogant Germans, but I dont get the sense that the entire culture is arrogant like the French are. It might come down to personal experiences, too. Most of the Germans I have met are living here, people who move to the US/Canada for work or a new home might not represent the typcial homelander.

[Sea Skimmer]

Germany gave America every bit of aid it would have gotten with total political support. I'd say that places them well below France.

Below France?

On the how much we hate them scale

[Alyrium Denryle]

It's the macho code. The macho code says that a man who would rather die on his feet than live on his knees is always more honourable and admirable than a man who would live on his knees.

It's a rather twisted code, since in this case, it means we're supposed to show favour to brutal racial supremacist butchers (honestly, if we can't let go of WW2, then why the fuck are we buddy-buddy with the Germans?!?!?).

I think it has much to do with the fact that
a. Most Grmans where not Nazis
b. We have cultural ties with Germany(the official languageof the US being German, lot by 1 count them 1 vote.
c. The germans fought to the last man to defend their capital...while he french caaved like the Buffalo Bills at the super bowl.

[Joe]

b. We have cultural ties with Germany(the official languageof the US being German, lot by 1 count them 1 vote.

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What the hell are you talking about?