Finally adding to my canon database

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seanrobertson
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Re: Finally adding to my canon database

Post by seanrobertson »

Darth Wong wrote:In case anyone's curious, I've finally added a new episode to my long-dormant canon database: Scorpion!

I plan to start adding other episodes from other series too, in no particular order. When I made the TNG database, I made the whole thing and then uploaded it at once. This time, I'm planning to add individual episodes or even parts of episodes piecemeal, because I figure there's no point waiting to get a whole series done before uploading.
Unless, of course, the series itself dies first ;) LOL. (I'm giving
ENT a chance, but half the episodes bore me to death. They *really*
need an influx of new writing blood.)

I have a few thoughts regarding "Scorpion":

First, I think your note about "thousands of inhabited systems"
is good. At first, I thought it was generous, but then I remembered
that, at the height of its own power, the Krenim Imperium had
over 850 inhabited systems. They, too, spanned several thousand
light years (the dialogue mentioned parsecs), so this adds up
pretty well.

Good thoughts on tubules. They are, in fact, *not* a recent development,
though "BoBW" would make it seem that way. Sometime prior to "BoBW," Seven of Nine used them against three other Borg drones after crash-landing on a planet. I don't remember the episode name, though.

I also agree with your observations regarding 8472's bio-electric field.
This was partly overcome somehow in the episode "Prey," in which
Seven beams an Eight onto a Hirogen ship. (For some reason, I
found that really funny at the time.) FWIW, however, that Eight
was extremely sick/weak...perhaps their bio-electric field isn't wholly
a natural defense?

Added note to that: since the Eights are from a part of the universe
in which they supposedly had no contact w/ aliens 'til the Borg arrived,
what need would they have of a defense that scrambles transporters
and shrugs off tractor beams? We've never seen them use such
technology...they must've developed that response to counter something
else. In any event it doesn't make transporters look rosy...

You also pointed out something I had totally forgotten, about
how the Borg had only been engaged a dozen or so times in
5 months. Your thoughts on that part of the transcript are:

"On another issue, the Borg expected to be defeated in another few weeks at this rate. Even if we assume that the casualty figures (8 planets, 312 ships) reported later to "7 of 9" were only for one major attack as the Trekkies have been angrily insisting, the fact that 15-20 such attacks would defeat the Borg severely limits their total resources, far below what some over-optimistic Trekkies have claimed for them."

I partly agree and disagree here. I don't think these number of attacks
could be indicative of overwhelming the entire Collective...given
that they have thousands of systems, as previously noted, the loss
of a few planets--lightly populated ones at that, apparently--should
be a very minor setback. Why the "war would be lost" if it involved
the arbitrary destruction of Borg assets doesn't make sense.

I offer that the Eights were cutting a path toward an important target,
perhaps a unicomplex or something we haven't seen yet. If they
were indeed able to destroy a Borg command center, it could
make the war effectively unwinnable: if it didn't permanently
disrupt the Collective mind, it could, at least, leave the Borg uncoordinated
for awhile; and as they struggled to re-establish a Queen/locus
of control, they'd be even more vulnerable.

Also, WRT to a cube's big empty caverns:

"Some have suggested that the interior cavity may serve some useful function such as carrying captured vessels, but that is a flimsy rationalization at best; there is no visible opening through which a large vessel could be drawn in, and they could just as easily do their work inside a ship parked next to theirs rather than dragging it inside (particularly since we know they can drag ships along with them at warp speed if necessary)."

Since I was one of the people who suggested that, I have to take
issue, my lord :)

Seriously, I think it's a good rationalization because we've seen
large ships taken inside cubes. I used to have a vidcap of the
scene I'm thinking about; it's from VGR's "Collective," in which
the Delta Flyer is pulled inside a barely functioning cube.
Their "hangar" is enormous.

And there are in fact openings through which ships can be taken inside
a cube. How visible they are is a bit shaky, though we do see spheres
with such hangar bay doors (notably in "Endgame"), and the passage
through which the sphere left the cube in "First Contact."

VGR and "FC"'s cubes are different than the one seen in TNG which,
as I understand, was built from spare model sprue ( ! ). But if
we assume for a moment that they're in fact outwardly identical,
it might be possible to determine an upper-limit on the size of
ships a cube could drag inside it. Remember how in "Q Who?"
and "BoBW" the Borg would only slice pieces out of the E-D?
Maybe they did so because they couldn't pull the entire ship
into the hangar.

That's not necessarily the case, since the Borg might've--gasp!--actually been SMART and realized that a semi-functioning ship could self-destruct inside the cube. Still, a thought. It's also possible that some Borg
ships are simply not designed to assimilate whole starships, fulfilling
a more tactical role in their fleet.

As far as dragging ships along with a cube at warp, I dunno how
practical that would be. It'd be a lot easier to get the job done
if the ship was actually inside yours, space permitting. (A mechanic
could take apart a car a lot easier if it was inside his shop, but if
he had to constantly leave the garage and lug equipment to another
site, the process would be slow at best.)

This is especially the case given how far Borg ships sometimes
operate from home territory. As the people said in "Unimatrix Zero,"
the Borg have ships all over the galaxy. If, for example, the Borg
were scouting in Dominion space and ran across Jem'Hadar, it'd be greatly to their advantage to take an attack ship in their hangar; if it was outside being dragged along, even at high warp, the enemy could potentially intercept and destroy your catch, rendering the whole scouting mission a failure.

The only other nit I could make would regard this:

"In any case, the bio-ship easily deflects the cube's return fire with some kind of surface effect (it looked like a skin-effect shield system of some sort), which detonates incoming missiles and then deflects any energy they might release. Oddly enough, the cube is using some sort of torpedo rather than disruptor blasts, even though we know from the previous encounter that disruptor blasts can cause serious damage to one of their ships. This may indicate that they normally use torpedoes to "soften it up" for a disruptor blast, or perhaps the cube had previously suffered damage rendering its disruptors useless. Alternatively, perhaps the Borg are simply idiots."

Good thoughts, but KIM the cube was at warp while firing those torpedos.
Their disruptors might not be designed for FTL engagements, even
when the opponent ship is also at warp speeds.

Awesome addition to the Database, though.
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DarkStar
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Post by DarkStar »

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote: Laughing on your own claims, eh? It was YOU who say that they'll BEAM AWAY. A bunch of supposedly hi-tech aliens flee against soldiers of ancient Earth civilization.
I laughed because I thought we were sharing the humor of the image of Borg fleeing Romans. However, it would appear that I have given you too much credit, and you do not, in fact, realize that withdrawal due to disinterest does not equal Holy Grail-esque cries of "run away!". :roll:
Hohohoho... Let's use some logic here. ***BAT'LETH*** and ***CLAWS*** works fine against the Borg. What makes you think bullets won't? What makes you think arrows won't?
A KE shield which protects against hands, claws, et cetera will adversely affect a Borg drone's ability to interact with its environment. However, interaction by use of projectiles is rather uncommon.
Well, DarkAss,
DarkAss?
next time you point a URL please **READ** it first. It may work badly against you. Here's a quote from http://www.leenet.demon.co.uk/phaser/2370/tr-116.htm

It's a fair assumption that this rifle was designed with the Borg in mind, since projectiles have been proved effective against them - so far as we've seen.

:twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
I did read it, idiot. Just because the author's notes are inclusive of the same erroneous concept as the one you use does not mean the facts above have no utility to my point. Again, no projectile of the sort we are familiar with has been fired against the Borg.

Also remember, phasers are referred to as "particle weapons" in First Contact, on Enterprise, et cetera.

On a lighter note, you impress yourself far too easily.
What is pathetic is that you think my favorable conjecture versus your preferred unfavorable conjecture constitutes some sort of basis for believing I am pathetic.
No, I'm attacking your arguments on the Borg. It was YOU who bring the Federation in.

"I simply conjecture in favor of the Borg and the Federation, and not against."

Since, AFAIK, we are not discussing the Federation here, what the meaning of that above? Hmmm???
Your ignorance of common Warsie arguments is, I suppose, forgivable. However, given the fact that I made it pretty damn clear I was talking about it (perhaps when I used the phrase "common Warsie conjecture"), and given the fact that it was a valid component to my argument, your incredulous-act is quite silly.
Actually, I did, and found it quite useful. It confirms that no projectile weapons have ever been seen in use against Borg drones.
And it confirms that ***BAT'LETH*** and ***CLAWS*** works fine against the Borg.
Which has ***JACK*** and ***SHIT*** to do with it.
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Post by DarkStar »

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:FYI, DarkAss
What's with this DarkAss business? I would really enjoy hearing you explain this, while avoiding any racial implications.
You haven't show a SINGLE PROOF for this ridiculous claim.
Nor have you shown a SINGLE PROOF that the Borg cannot withstand projectiles.
Please mention a SINGLE EPISODE when Borg dronce forcefields DID repel KE attacks.
Been there, done that.
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Post by Grand Admiral Thrawn »

DarkStar wrote:
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:FYI, DarkAss
What's with this DarkAss business? I would really enjoy hearing you explain this, while avoiding any racial implications.


They're twisting your name to insult you. Fucking obvious.

Nor have you shown a SINGLE PROOF that the Borg cannot withstand projectiles.

First. Contact. Tommy. Gun.


Been there, done that.

You have not.
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Post by DarkStar »

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:They're twisting your name to insult you. Fucking obvious.
No shit, Sherlock. However, I'm curious to know how he thinks DarkAss constitutes an insult.
First. Contact. Tommy. Gun.
Holographic bullets, moron.
Been there, done that.
You have not.
And, I quote . . . me:

"We have seen just one example of anti-personnel (i.e. "don't touch me") forcefield use by the Borg, but it is enough to show that they do have it, at least aboard-ship."

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... c&start=36
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Post by Evil Jerk »

First. Contact. Tommy. Gun.
Holographic bullets, moron.[/quote]

They act exactly the same as real bullets, every time we've seen bullets in the holodeck they acted like real bullets.
Since there's no difference, we can safely say real bullets would do the same thing, and don't pull some holodeck technobabble out of your ass without proof, please.
"We have seen just one example of anti-personnel (i.e. "don't touch me") forcefield use by the Borg, but it is enough to show that they do have it, at least aboard-ship."
I only remember an anti-personnel shield on Locutus, which makes sense actually.
The Borg can't/are too stupid to give all of their drones such shields, but ultra important ones like Locutus get them.
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Post by TheDarkling »

Im not 100% sure but didnt Tuvok have a personal shield in Dark Frontier when he became a Borg, this shield prevented Janeway from pulling his wires.

We also know that the federation has personal force fields and they arent complicated to make (Worf built one out of a comm badge and a clock from the old west).

Its probably a case of its wastefull to use all that power on drone ke shielding when the Feds (and most advanced ST races) wont be employing it.

If it was necessary the Borg would simply activate KE shielding on Drones but going after people using KE weapons probably doesnt happen that often.
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Post by Spanky The Dolphin »

DarkStar wrote:
Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:They're twisting your name to insult you. Fucking obvious.
No shit, Sherlock. However, I'm curious to know how he thinks DarkAss constitutes an insult.
1. Your name is DarkStar.
2. You are an ass.

Ergo, DarkStar = DarkAss.

Got that, FuckFace?
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Post by Grand Admiral Thrawn »

DarkStar wrote:
Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:They're twisting your name to insult you. Fucking obvious.
No shit, Sherlock. However, I'm curious to know how he thinks DarkAss constitutes an insult.


Uh, cause you're an ass? :D
First. Contact. Tommy. Gun.
Holographic bullets, moron.

Prove they're different useless hatfucker (I've been playing too much ASVS RPG)
Been there, done that.
You have not.
And, I quote . . . me:

"We have seen just one example of anti-personnel (i.e. "don't touch me") forcefield use by the Borg, but it is enough to show that they do have it, at least aboard-ship."

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... c&start=36

1. That's a claim, not an episode name (HEHEHE, I made a funny :) )
2. You mention on a ship. Ships generate forcefields.
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Post by Spanky The Dolphin »

Hey wait, I can play the game, too.

DarkDick
DarkShit
DarkFuck

This is fun. But FuckFace is still my favourite. :mrgreen:
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Post by Tsyroc »

Is everything on the holodeck a hologram or does the system also "replicate" some things so they are "real"?

If not, wouldn't that mean that the holographic bullets from the Tommygun were actually energy and still able to kill the Borg without them adapting a way to block them?
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Post by Master of Ossus »

The holodeck does appear to replicate many of the things used on it. Most of their props, I think, are real in the sense that they would exist if taken off the holodeck. This is supported by the fact that O'Brien and Bashir are always dressed in elaborate costumes, and I cannot imagine that those are easy to import to a place like DS9. It is also supported by the episode in which Wesley falls into a pool of water on the holodeck and is still drenched when he walks out of it. Finally, it is circumstantially supported by the episode in which the man accessed replicator files for the sniper rifle being used in DS9, as he was a collector of weapons. I don't think that a replicator is physically large enough to generate such a device, so I think it was likely created on the holodeck.
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Post by Evil Jerk »

There's also the piece of paper Moriarty drew on that Data took out of the holodeck, which definitley originated from the holodeck and lasted for a long while outside it, proving it was replicated material.
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Post by TheDarkling »

Master of Ossus: He probably used the Industrial replicator to create it.
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Post by Master of Ossus »

TheDarkling wrote:Master of Ossus: He probably used the Industrial replicator to create it.
Are there industrial replicators on DS9 that are available for people like that? I never knew that. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.

Also, thanks go to Evil Jerk for telling us all about the paper in Data's little simulation. You are quite right, that is potentially better evidence than any of the others.
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Post by DarkStar »

Evil Jerk wrote: They act exactly the same as real bullets, every time we've seen bullets in the holodeck they acted like real bullets.
Sure, they might have looked like real bullets, but they're little bullet versions of the HoloDoc. That means they are projected light and forcefields for solidity. The doctor once turned off the forcefield giving him solidity, making for an entertaining slap attempt by Tom.

And, as per "Living Witness"[TNG], it makes the holo-bullets impervious to phaser fire.
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Post by DarkStar »

Spanky The Dolphin wrote: 1. Your name is DarkStar.
2. You are an ass.

Ergo, DarkStar = DarkAss.
And DarkAss, used as an insult, smells of a sign I'm told exists in an out-of-the-way South Carolina town:

"Don't let the sun set on your black ass."

I'd suggest "DarkAss" be dropped in favor of other Warsie stupidity.
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Post by Spanky The Dolphin »

I knew that's what you were concluding.

Unfortunately for you, that's not what we were refering to. Nice leap in logic, FuckFace.
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Post by Evil Jerk »

DarkStar wrote:
Evil Jerk wrote: They act exactly the same as real bullets, every time we've seen bullets in the holodeck they acted like real bullets.
Sure, they might have looked like real bullets, but they're little bullet versions of the HoloDoc. That means they are projected light and forcefields for solidity. The doctor once turned off the forcefield giving him solidity, making for an entertaining slap attempt by Tom.

And, as per "Living Witness"[TNG], it makes the holo-bullets impervious to phaser fire.
So what? Even if you could turn off their solidity, it doesn't change the fact that those particular bullets in FC were solid and acted no differentley than real bullets.
Not to mention the substantial evidence that they're replicated material.
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Post by Master of Ossus »

Surprisingly, I don't think that DarkStar said anything wrong there. I also don't think it was much of a leap in logic. I don't think we want to have anything on the board that can even be remotely connected with racism, and he has left us with plenty of other, better insults for us to use on him. I would also suggest that DarkAss be dropped, in favor of the others that are more humorous, anyway.
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Post by TheDarkling »

DarkStar wrote: And, as per "Living Witness"[TNG], it makes the holo-bullets impervious to phaser fire.
???

Darkstar is right in that those bullets may have been holograms and not replicated material.

We have seen KE shields in use by the Borg and we know the Feds have personal shields aswell.

Therefore we must assume that the Borg simply dont use KE shields normally because of it not being worth the power costs (some reasoning about the borg blocking only certain freqs points to power saving measures).
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Post by Master of Ossus »

Mmmm... I have problems accepting the power cost reasoning for the lack of KE shielding on Borg. Worf's shield really cost no power, as it was maintained by a comlink (of all things). I also don't know that the amount of resources for a shield like that could be very great, because the cost should be fairly small compared with that of a drone. I'm not sure that this apparent contradiction can be explained by any of the methods yet proposed, especially because the Borg have repeatedly shown that they have several forcefields on their ships that protect their ships by isolating potential intruders, and these do not seem to be very large or power-intensive.
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Post by TheDarkling »

Yes I agree that power cost cutting by the borg doesnt seem reasonable but why not put up a personal shield that blocks all freqs since they can "adapt" by blocking new freqs - the conclusion fits with the Borg's MO.

Worfs shield failed after a few seconds so it wasnt exactly ready to implement.
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Post by Grand Admiral Thrawn »

DarkStar wrote:
Evil Jerk wrote: They act exactly the same as real bullets, every time we've seen bullets in the holodeck they acted like real bullets.
Sure, they might have looked like real bullets, but they're little bullet versions of the HoloDoc. That means they are projected light and forcefields for solidity. The doctor once turned off the forcefield giving him solidity, making for an entertaining slap attempt by Tom.

So it's solid or goes through matter. Did you see those bullets travel through Ensign Actually Named.
And, as per "Living Witness"[TNG], it makes the holo-bullets impervious to phaser fire.

WTF happened in "Living Witness"?
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Post by Lord Poe »

Again, Fuckface deliberately ignores the facts. For instance, Picard walked out of the holodeck with a lipstick print on his cheek in "The Big Goodbye". an ensign was shot by a bullet in "The Big Goodbye", Data walked out of the holodeck holding a paper in "Elementary Dear Data", Wesley dripped water on the carpet outside the holodeck after falling in a river IN the holodeck, Wesley threw a snowball from the holodeck and hit Picard, Worf worried about the holo-bullets in "Fistfull of Datas", Seven and Neelix were cut down by bullets in "The Killing Game", and had to be brought to sickbay, etc.

Its clear that when the safeties are off, or it seems, at the whim of the holodeck patron, such things can be replicated instantly.
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