I like the original look of the Borg better

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2003-04-20 03:44pm

I might be the only one, but I like the way that they looked in the TNG series. They looked scarier to me and, of course, assimilation was a surgical procedure.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2003-04-20 03:57pm

They were well better, they had really white skin no hair...sort of like hellraiser, much more scary than the veiny ones of later series.

as for the surgery...definately more scary, but the nanites is a better idea in my opinion, though they should have stayed chalk white with black eyes and pipes coming around everywhere.

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2003-04-20 03:58pm

I like the FC and VOY APPEARANCE of the Borg better, but the TNG Borg were best in everything else (FC comes a close, but kills it with the Queen).

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-04-20 03:59pm

VOY Borg really just have covering and maybe an eye piece.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-04-20 04:08pm

VOY Borg get owned by a Feddie science/exploration vessel. Not even a warship! TNG Borg owned entire fleets! What the hell happened? B&B!!! Appearance be damned, TNG Borg are cool, VOY Borg are pansies. I can never forgive B&B for this (and many other) atrocities they've made against Star Trek.

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2003-04-20 04:08pm

Yes, the Voyager and FC Borg were weak as hell too. Remember what happened when Riker tried to fight one in TNG? The Borg threw him like a rag doll.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2003-04-20 04:43pm

I remember a day when it took half the Federation fleet just to fight one cube. I remember when the Borg could blast through shields and just beam the feddies into assimilation chambers. I remember Locutus Of Borg.

Now i remember Borg who get killed by just 5 Q-Torps in the right spot, now i remember Borg who are intimidated by an over power science vessel. Now i remember a Queen in control of a collective. Now i remember a haughty bitch as a former borg.

i think the above says it all.

Macross · Post by **Macross** » 2003-04-20 09:39pm

I agree, there was something more intimidating about the Pre-FC Borg, they looked much more cybernetic with all those tubes, wires, attachments and exposed brains.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-04-20 11:42pm

someone post pictures, i've never seen TNG borg.

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2003-04-21 02:22am

Yeah, that is the Borg that I'm talking about.

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-04-21 04:06am

How much have they really changed in appearance, except for the fact that they don't have so many tubes now?

Sokar · Post by **Sokar** » 2003-04-21 04:16am

The TNG era Borg were terrifying, a truely implacable foe. I remember after seeing the original Borg episode thinking, "Its the Cenobites on crack!" Then they just had to go and gut them into the pussified Borg of Voyager.........

Grand Moff Yenchin · Post by **Grand Moff Yenchin** » 2003-04-21 06:47am

Speaking of Hellraiser...I like the looks of Jadzia Dax vs. The Borg

Anyway, I think ever since FC came out, the Borg began to suck wind, the cool concept of a collective mind turned into a collective stupidity under the reign of another stupidity, which, could've still been a good thing to do but was ultimately done bad. 'really miss those TNG Borgs...

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2003-04-21 04:58pm

Yenchin, you just said it all. Another change: Originally the Borg were controlled by the central computer on their ship. The same computer core that Picard talked to. On Voyager we see this change. The DRONES fly the ships. Remember the damaged ship that the drones were flying around? Fucking stupid.

Also, when the central computer talks, we learn that it is actually the Queen talking through it... ARRRGGHHH!

And, worst of all, JANEWAY FUCKING NEGOTIATED A DEAL WITH THE BORG! What happened to, "negotiation is irrelevant?" You don't negotiate with the Borg! You listen to what they have to say, and then they fuck you up.

Another change: The Voyager doctor claimed that the Borg do not learn by investigation, they learn by assimilation. This is why they could not defeat 8472. WRONG AGAIN, stupid ass B & B! On "Q Who" a single Borg beamed into the Enterprise's engineering section with the intent on INVESTIGATING the defense and engineering specs. And after that, the Borg ordered Picard to surrender because they determined that the Enterprise could not with stand them. They don't just charge into fights they cannot win: first, they check everything out.

DIE, B & B, DIE!

Mutant Headcrab · Post by **Mutant Headcrab** » 2003-04-21 07:28pm

Hmmmm....What ever happened to Hugh? You would think he would have popped back up somewhere in the newer Treks.....

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2003-04-21 07:49pm

Well there was that whole fiasco with the lore borg, didn't he say what would happen to him there? i don't remember what though.

The Silence and I · Post by **The Silence and I** » 2003-04-21 08:24pm

I personally use this as evidence that Voy. NEVER HAPPENED!!! It is almost enough to make me reject First Contact on every level. Grrrrr. The only Borg I will accept as true Borg are the first ones. They had power, they were frightening, unstopable, clever... DANGEROUS.

Even their ships were cooler.

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2003-04-22 12:50am

And why did the Voyage Borg's cubes glow with a green light? That was stupid too.

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-04-22 02:14am

closet sci-fi fan wrote:
Simon H.Johansen wrote:How much have they really changed in appearance, except for the fact that they don't have so many tubes now?
Hugh:

Voyager Borg:

Apparently, they looked even weirder in TNG.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-04-22 07:13am

Assimilation was part surgical/part "nanoprobe" in First Contact.

There is a certain appeal to the pale bald people wearing black (the whole neo-fascist look) as opposed to just vericose vein zombies.

Their lack of any sort of combat skill (despite their reputation) probably matters more to me than their "look."

Space zombies are a cool idea, but their initial character profile was far more interesting...

kmart · Post by **kmart** » 2003-04-22 11:24am

Simon H.Johansen wrote:How much have they really changed in appearance, except for the fact that they don't have so many tubes now?

In looks, it was mainly having some money to spend on the costuming for FIRST CONTACT, and VOYAGER reusing the FC stuff.
The main difference is that the original borg costumes were basically longjohns with transistor parts and tubing on them; you couldn't really have them hold up under scrutiny or in good light or on a big screen. But CONCEPTUALLY, I like the vampire look of the series more than the green veiny look from FC onward, even though the costuming is more impressive on the later ones.

Todd Masters, who is the makeup fx guy that did the FC suits along with Costumer Deborah Everton (he also did the spacesuits), was working apart from Westmore on this, and he told me when I did the Cinefex article on that movie that when they gave him the old Locutus suit and told him to use it for FC, he was flabbergasted. (he's my source for the "longjohns/transistors" remark above.) His company wound up spending their own money to try and bring Locutus up to the standards of the other FC suits (amazing that Paramount didn't realize that they'd be putting what amounts to a halloween costume up on screen as one of the first images in FC ... they'd've risked losing the audience to laughter early on if the series-era Locutus suit had been filmed as-was.) They spent money to update the regular borg and to do the queen, but apparently didn't hold anything back for Locutus!

I never thought the waxy headed queen look they went with was all that good myself ... there is concept art for how ILM thought the queen should look that was far superior ... in fact, Ricardo Delgado also did some awesome concepts for the queen, and I kinda think that FARSCAPE may have ripped them off for some of their villains, as it is very similar. You can see a lot of this stuff in the John Eaves STAR TREK MOVIE SKETCHBOOKS volume.

As to how they pussified the borg, well, the fact that they chose to deal with the borg at all after that Hugh episode (or even DO the Hugh episode) was proof that this would happen, that they'd run it into the ground. I think FC is a pretty laughable movie, and the few bits of VOYAGER I've seen seemed so out of place in the trek universe that I couldn't get through them.

Q WHO is still in my top 5 NextGen eps (I'm not a big fan of that series either, but they did do SOME good shows), and that is the PRESENCE I expect from the Borg in terms of feel, and also how it impacts the characters. I always say that whole show is about Picard getting hot chocolate spilled on him, not just because ensign nobody spills on him in the teaser, but because the whole episode forces Picard to acknowledge his (GR's) lunacy about man being capable of dealing with anything is exposed for what it is. The ep also seems a wakeup call about trek complacency and 24th century idyllic bs. Unfortunately, they didn't really take heed, and so the series stayed pretty much flatline for me, even when they did some better characterization later on.

Superman · Post by **Superman** » 2003-04-22 07:14pm

KMART, you said that the proof of the Borg pussification could be seen with what happened with Hugh? Bullshit. Do you not get it? Those were a break off or rogue Borg. They had nothing to do with the collective. They were simply used as the villains of the week. They could do whatever they wanted with the "Hugh Borg" because, despite their appearance, they were not Borg.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-04-22 08:54pm

the only real difference i can see is the skin and the lighting. VOY borg have skin that looks more appropriate for a shadow battle crab, and the lighting is overly green, while TNG borg have pasty white skin and the lighting is nice and white. They look rather like what you get if you stick an ubergoth and a PC in a blender turned to puree.

Anarchist Bunny · Post by **Anarchist Bunny** » 2003-04-22 10:07pm

Yeah, TNG borg were the shit, they were slow as humans but they were much stronger, made you thinkg twice about going at one with a knife(Wolf). Now I wouldn't be affraid of these guys if I had a broomstick and a hammer. Tip and SMASH!

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-04-22 11:19pm

did the original borg walk like zombies??