Senior Bush aides meet to weigh sidelining France for Iraq war stance
WASHINGTON (AFP) - Senior aides to US President George W. Bush (news - web sites) met this week to consider ways to punish France for its opposition to the war on Iraq (news - web sites), including sidelining Paris at NATO (news - web sites) and limiting its participation in transatlantic forums, officials said.
I posted just the first paragraph from the article but it gives you want its about.
Is it me or is this whole thing about punishing France just stupid?
Well... France is really only in the political side of NATO. They pulled their military out back in the 60's IIRC.
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Any sanctions against France will only make us look petty and vindictive. It's a bad move PR wise for the US goverment. Bush should act the better man and just leave it, but every time they meet up give Chirac a wee niggily smile of superiority.
France did pull out of the NATO military structure in the 60's once they felt there nuclear deterrent was operational. However methinks "Bush aid meets reporters to increase personal publicity with lies" would be a better title for this article.
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Are we going to punish every country that voiced opposition to the war, or just the ones we historically don't like and are largely responsible for our independence?
Damien Sorresso
"Ever see what them computa bitchez do to numbas? It ain't natural. Numbas ain't supposed to be code, they supposed to quantify shit."
- The Onion
Okay, now this is getting immature. It's one thing if certain people who aren't in government are doing stuff like this, but when government officials are doing it, it really creates a bad image.
I don't even know why such sanctions are necessary. We finished the war without them.
The best course of action is to simpy deny the French a role in Reconstruction and to forgive all Iraqi debts to the French. It sends a clear message and doesn't royally screw us over in the international arena.
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That gives Chirac's argument of American hegemony a sort of validity. "Look, Arab world! He's picking and chosing who's allowed to help you get back on your own two feet!" It'll encourage the French to oppose, veto, or whine about new American resolutions in the future - especially those related to Iraq. Not to mention that the Russians and Chinese would capitalize off that fairly quickly. While easily dismissed on their own - both have the "Communist taint" -, they make a fairly difficult trio to "shake" when France serves as a mouthpiece.
Durandal wrote:and are largely responsible for our independence?
And we are largely responsible for their freedom from German aggression. Lets not get into irrelivent history.
Well I wouldn't use that card too much. Roosevlet flat out hated Gaul and did everything he could to make sure he was marginalised and not a figure head of France. Gaul was the only French man that actually never stopped fighting the German's, and Roosevelt's policy was to make friends with teh Vichy government and even tried setting up Vichy Admiral's and General's as legitimate rulers of France during the run up to it's liberation.
A move that literally backfired with the French fighting man. Gaul for all of his paranoia, was right in not trusting the Americans. While from and absolute point of view; yes the US 'liberated' France. However from a political point of view (taking into account that Gaul won), the US did everything it could to screw it over. So....
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Of course we should punish France. Afterall, their stonewalling over at the UN caused us to lose the war. Because of them, Saddam's forces defeated us on the battlefield, and Iraq will never be free. It's all France's fault. Damn them for being a sorvereign nation who supports the wishes of their people that war was not the right option. It's bad enough there are people out there who disagree with us for whatever reason, but it is even worse when their elected governments do the same. So sure, let's punish the French, we never did like them anyway.
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The most basic assumption about the world is that it does not contradict itself.
Durandal wrote:and are largely responsible for our independence?
And we are largely responsible for their freedom from German aggression. Lets not get into irrelivent history.
Well I wouldn't use that card too much. Roosevlet flat out hated Gaul and did everything he could to make sure he was marginalised and not a figure head of France. Gaul was the only French man that actually never stopped fighting the German's, and Roosevelt's policy was to make friends with teh Vichy government and even tried setting up Vichy Admiral's and General's as legitimate rulers of France during the run up to it's liberation.
A move that literally backfired with the French fighting man. Gaul for all of his paranoia, was right in not trusting the Americans. While from and absolute point of view; yes the US 'liberated' France. However from a political point of view (taking into account that Gaul won), the US did everything it could to screw it over. So....
And France did not help out the colonies in the revolutionary war out of the goodness of their hearts, but for political gain.
Not to say history doesn't matter, but both of these events are so far in the past that to make choices now based on them is the height of silliness.
Howedar wrote:And we are largely responsible for their freedom from German aggression. Lets not get into irrelivent history.
Well I wouldn't use that card too much. Roosevlet flat out hated Gaul and did everything he could to make sure he was marginalised and not a figure head of France. Gaul was the only French man that actually never stopped fighting the German's, and Roosevelt's policy was to make friends with teh Vichy government and even tried setting up Vichy Admiral's and General's as legitimate rulers of France during the run up to it's liberation.
A move that literally backfired with the French fighting man. Gaul for all of his paranoia, was right in not trusting the Americans. While from and absolute point of view; yes the US 'liberated' France. However from a political point of view (taking into account that Gaul won), the US did everything it could to screw it over. So....
And France did not help out the colonies in the revolutionary war out of the goodness of their hearts, but for political gain.
Not to say history doesn't matter, but both of these events are so far in the past that to make choices now based on them is the height of silliness.
Every country does the same thing. you think the US went to iraq because of the goodness of our heart. We went there for political and economic gain.
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Doesn't punuishing France for voicing opposition kind of go against the idea of democracy?
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That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"
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Senior Bush aides meet to weigh sidelining France for Iraq war stance
WASHINGTON (AFP) - Senior aides to US President George W. Bush (news - web sites) met this week to consider ways to punish France for its opposition to the war on Iraq (news - web sites), including sidelining Paris at NATO (news - web sites) and limiting its participation in transatlantic forums, officials said.
I posted just the first paragraph from the article but it gives you want its about.
Is it me or is this whole thing about punishing France just stupid?
That article was alot of words and not alot of content. Even so, a realignment of allies and common purposes is not all than unexpected due to current events. WWII is WAY over and the geo political enviroment that was created in its place is not the reality any more. Neither is the cold war era world, so seeing allies change and even so-called allies being relabeled non-allies or out right politicaly hostile to us is IMHO long over due.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong
But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
Gandalf wrote:Doesn't punuishing France for voicing opposition kind of go against the idea of democracy?
No, our 300 million strong population out numbers their 60 some odd million. Majority wins .
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong
But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
Gandalf wrote:Doesn't punuishing France for voicing opposition kind of go against the idea of democracy?
No, our 300 million strong population out numbers their 60 some odd million. Majority wins .
Thats another way of looking at it.
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"
- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist
"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin
So why does that mean that we should take them out in the back and flog them?
I didn't say we should do anything equivelent to flogging them, I just said we shouldn't let them reap the fruits of a victory they opposed until the bitter end.
The End of Suburbia
"If more cars are inevitable, must there not be roads for them to run on?"
-Robert Moses
"The Wire" is the best show in the history of television. Watch it today.
So why does that mean that we should take them out in the back and flog them?
I didn't say we should do anything equivelent to flogging them, I just said we shouldn't let them reap the fruits of a victory they opposed until the bitter end.
What benefits would those be? Business with Iraq? Isn't it up to the Iraqi people to decide who they'd like to do business with?
Damien Sorresso
"Ever see what them computa bitchez do to numbas? It ain't natural. Numbas ain't supposed to be code, they supposed to quantify shit."
- The Onion
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