how did it all start?

FBHthelizardmage · Post by **FBHthelizardmage** » 2003-04-23 09:32am

I was wondering, How did the the ST vs SW debate get started?

and how did You get involved in it?

Rightous Fist Of Heaven · Post by **Rightous Fist Of Heaven** » 2003-04-23 09:33am

When ANH came out

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-04-23 09:44am

While I'm sure there were disorganized skirmishes before that, it got started basically when TNG came out. When I was a kid or even an adolescent, people were fans of both series and didn't think of trying these technical comparisons (or at least, I never encountered any who did).

But something happened to the Star Trek fanbase when TNG came out. It became more pompous, less populist. With a Shakespearean stage actor (ooooooh!) helming the ship and the show's rather obvious pretensions of grandeur and profundity, its audience seemed to skew in the same direction. All of a sudden you had people ranting and raving everywhere about how everything worked, how it was the best, how it was more than just a TV show and was now a source of moral leadership for society, etc.

Sure, these kooks always existed, but when TNG came out, they became far more numerous, or at least far more visible. They took it upon themselves to show the world that Trek was superior in every conceivable way to Star Wars. In those days, arguments like the laser/nav deflector were quite common and WIDELY ACCEPTED. It was actually common on ASVS to run into people who would seriously claim with a completely straight face that the Enterprise and the Death Star were reasonably competitive with one another in terms of firepower, and who would dismiss an Enterprise/ISD matchup as hopelessly one-sided in favour of the Enterprise.

That is why I and some of the other First Ones such as Lord Poe came to wade into Trekkie-land and layeth the smackdown upon them; a counter-attack which drove them from the light and into seclusion in dark places like TrekBBS where they can huddle and tell themselves that there are no Americans in Baghdad, er- I mean, there are no solid arguments for ISD superiority over a GCS.

Oberleutnant · Post by **Oberleutnant** » 2003-04-23 09:46am

First there was this thing called "Big Bang". Billions of years later a black monolith came to Earth and... Oh, nevermind. If I try to sound witty and funny it usually backfires at me.

I leave the debating to much more capable people. Some this has to do with the fact that my knowledge of physics sucks and I like Trek as well, Voyager excluded.

Oberleutnant · Post by **Oberleutnant** » 2003-04-23 09:48am

Mike, it would be really nice to hear more about the early days of ST vs. SW debate.

Companion Cube · Post by **Companion Cube** » 2003-04-23 09:53am

Oberleutnant wrote:First there was this thing called "Big Bang". Billions of years later a black monolith came to Earth and... Oh, nevermind. If I try to sound witty and funny it usually backfires at me.

I leave the debating to much more capable people. Some this has to do with the fact that my knowledge of physics sucks and I like Trek as well, Voyager excluded.

Eh, I though it was funny.

Mike, it would be really nice to hear more about the early days of ST vs. SW debate.

Seconded.

Montcalm · Post by **Montcalm** » 2003-04-23 09:54am

Oberleutnant wrote:First there was this thing called "Big Bang". Billions of years later a black monolith came to Earth and... Oh, nevermind. If I try to sound witty and funny it usually backfires at me.

Like i said in a previous thread,Sorry about that it was not a monolith it was a piece of my domino game.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2003-04-23 09:57am

3rd Impact wrote: Seconded.

Thirded, and fourthed on behalf of Alfred.

Thank you, Master Bruce.

Don't mention it.

Montcalm · Post by **Montcalm** » 2003-04-23 10:05am

Batman wrote:
3rd Impact wrote: Seconded.
Thirded, and fourthed on behalf of Alfred.

Thank you, Master Bruce.

Don't mention it.

ANd i fifthed.

Montcalm · Post by **Montcalm** » 2003-04-23 10:06am

Montcalm wrote:
Batman wrote:
3rd Impact wrote: Seconded.
Thirded, and fourthed on behalf of Alfred.

Thank you, Master Bruce.

Don't mention it.
And i fifthed.

Oberleutnant · Post by **Oberleutnant** » 2003-04-23 10:38am

3rd Impact wrote:
Oberleutnant wrote:First there was this thing called "Big Bang". Billions of years later a black monolith came to Earth and... Oh, nevermind. If I try to sound witty and funny it usually backfires at me.

Eh, I though it was funny..

Seek help. Now.

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2003-04-23 10:43am

It was a hot steamy day, late in the summer of 1977. A young man wearing a wrinkled green t-shirt stepped out into the afternoon sun. His eyes struggled to adapt to the change in light. Emblazend upon the shirt which covered his ample girth was the phrase: 'Keptin! there are Klingons on Uranus!"

His mind raced to process the new information obtained over the last two hours. Golly those ships sure were big, and that, that 'Death Star' Adjusting his horn rimmed glasses he anxiously reassured himself that this supposed 'Galactic Empire' was no threat to his beloved Kirk and the mighty Federation to which he had devoted his life. Lasers! he thought with a condecending chuckle. Who uses LASERS! Geez, i bet the enterprise alone could beat that stupid Death Star

Taking a deep puff of Primatine Mist he scurried home, D&D sourcebook in hand. Something changed deep within him that day. Perhaps it was the last vestiges of rational brain activity, perhaps he had inhaled to much glue assembling his 1:32 scale model of the USS Enterprise earlier in the day. One thing, however was certain, the young Robert Scott Anderson had been changed. Changed forever.......and so it began

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2003-04-23 10:47am

Col. Crackpot wrote:It was a hot steamy day, late in the summer of 1977. A young man wearing a wrinkled green t-shirt stepped out into the afternoon sun. His eyes struggled to adapt to the change in light. Emblazend upon the shirt which covered his ample girth was the phrase: 'Keptin! there are Klingons on Uranus!"

His mind raced to process the new information obtained over the last two hours. Golly those ships sure were big, and that, that 'Death Star' Adjusting his horn rimmed glasses he anxiously reassured himself that this supposed 'Galactic Empire' was no threat to his beloved Kirk and the mighty Federation to which he had devoted his life. Lasers! he thought with a condecending chuckle. Who uses LASERS! Geez, i bet the enterprise alone could beat that stupid Death Star

Taking a deep puff of Primatine Mist he scurried home, D&D sourcebook in hand. Something changed deep within him that day. Perhaps it was the last vestiges of rational brain activity, perhaps he had inhaled to much glue assembling his 1:32 scale model of the USS Enterprise earlier in the day. One thing, however was certain, the young Robert Scott Anderson had been changed. Changed forever.......and so it began

Damn.

Post by **Dalton** » 2003-04-23 10:51am

For more information about the origins of ASVS and the Great Debate, I recommend you guys go take a look at ASVS Headline News at http://www.skayhan.net (esp. the Hall of Fame), http://www.h4h.com/louis/vsfaq.html for an archive of some of the older debates, and Kynes's ASVS History posts in the Fanfic Archive at http://www.daltonator.net/fanfics/culture.html

Post by **Dalton** » 2003-04-23 10:52am

Keevan_Colton wrote:
Col. Crackpot wrote:the young Robert Scott Anderson had been changed. Changed forever.......and so it began

Damn.

Tsk. You are sadly mistaken if you think DarkStar was the first. You know not the horrors of TOWNMNBS, the insane rantings of PAUL JACQUES H.JR, the twittishness of Elim Garak, and the sheer Trekkie evil of Ward and Kennedy.

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2003-04-23 10:54am

Dalton wrote:
Keevan_Colton wrote:
Col. Crackpot wrote:the young Robert Scott Anderson had been changed. Changed forever.......and so it began

Damn.
Tsk. You are sadly mistaken if you think DarkStar was the first. You know not the horrors of TOWNMNBS, the insane rantings of PAUL JACQUES H.JR, the twittishness of Elim Garak, and the sheer Trekkie evil of Ward and Kennedy.

geeez rob, where's you sense of humor?

i giggled my nut off writing that.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2003-04-23 11:04am

I'd really like to join ASVS.

......

But I can't figure out how to do it.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-04-23 11:34am

This is why I loved the Final Flamewar game that came out: The setting is so right. In days of old, when knights were bold, ASVS was drenched in fire and brimstone and stupid. Brave flamewarriors took up their swords against the Troll Hordes, wielding weapons of Logic, Reason, and Mockery. On the fields of debate they clashed with their eternal foes, fighting for day and night with only breaks for sex, food, jobs, and the occasional movie. Finally, the Trekkie Hordes, seeing their elite shock troops defeated and spread to the four winds, turned tail, fleeing for sanctuaries elsewhere.

In the years that followed, one of the mightiest heros of the Great Flamewar forged a kingdom based on the ideals he had once fought with so fiercely. Without the Trekkie Hordes to threaten the realm, the new generation of Flamewarriors are the equivalent of the dude you get in the beginning of a Final Fantasy game: Thinks he's badass because he beat up the local species of rabbit.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-04-23 11:49am

I like Wong explaination plenty.

It would explain much at comicons...where they constantly spew how great Picard is.

Oi, the brain hurting...like Nitram's comparison.

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-04-23 01:00pm

Darth Wong wrote:But something happened to the Star Trek fanbase when TNG came out. It became more pompous, less populist. With a Shakespearean stage actor (ooooooh!) helming the ship and the show's rather obvious pretensions of grandeur and profundity, its audience seemed to skew in the same direction.

So if I get it right - before TNG, Star Trek was seen as just one among many campy kitsch classics with William Shatner?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-04-23 01:03pm

Simon H.Johansen wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:But something happened to the Star Trek fanbase when TNG came out. It became more pompous, less populist. With a Shakespearean stage actor (ooooooh!) helming the ship and the show's rather obvious pretensions of grandeur and profundity, its audience seemed to skew in the same direction.
So if I get it right - before TNG, Star Trek was seen as just one among many campy kitsch classics with William Shatner?

Somewhat...even though Shatner was a prize choice for Roddenberry.

I guess having a clipped British accent and a whole *peace* agenda made TNG that much markedly different to the viewers, that some gained a big headed nature to it all.

Arthur_Tuxedo · Post by **Arthur_Tuxedo** » 2003-04-23 01:07pm

Anyone wanna see Mike's first post on ASVS? I thought you might

I Will Dress My Links

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-04-23 01:48pm

Arthur_Tuxedo wrote:Anyone wanna see Mike's first post on ASVS? I thought you might

I Will Dress My Links

Interesting. Much of it is on Lord Poe's website.

Oberleutnant · Post by **Oberleutnant** » 2003-04-23 01:49pm

Somehow the contents of that post remind me of a certain website that bears the name of a famous science fiction vessel...

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-04-23 02:14pm

Dalton wrote:Tsk. You are sadly mistaken if you think DarkStar was the first. You know not the horrors of TOWNMNBS, the insane rantings of PAUL JACQUES H.JR, the twittishness of Elim Garak, and the sheer Trekkie evil of Ward and Kennedy.

::screams in pain at the memories::