Finally adding to my canon database

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

1. Your name is DarkStar.
2. You are an ass.

Ergo, DarkStar = DarkAss.

And DarkAss, used as an insult, smells of a sign I'm told exists in an out-of-the-way South Carolina town:

"Don't let the sun set on your black ass."

I'd suggest "DarkAss" be dropped in favor of other Warsie stupidity.

Big deal. No sweat. Which one do you like most?
- DorkAss
- FuckStar
- DumbStar
- DickStar

In case you can't comprehend it, the name DarkAss simply derived from your name (DarkStar), and has NOTHING TO DO with race or color (except, of course, in your own delusion). If your name is BigStar, it'll be BigAss. If it's HotStar, it'll be HotAss, etc.

Now, you won't mind, of course, if I call you FuckStar?

[SirNitram]

Is HotAss an insult?

[seanrobertson]

Christ Almighty, guys!

Just today, that's two decent threads I've seen that have degenerated into [unoriginal] insults and name-calling. A little bit of heated language can certainly liven things up, but it should be icing on a thoughtful debate, not just "fuck you!" for the sake of saying thereof. It should certainly not
take the place of rational debate.

Perhaps I'm being overly sensitive, but I was looking forward to talking
about some of Michael's insights. (You know, the stuff mentioned back
on page one, prior to this Spacebattles-like input.)

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

And, by the way, FuckStar, I think your claim about Borg's KE shield is utterly ridiculous. Consider this:

1. You pointed out that no projectile has never been fired at the Borg (thus ignoring the facts that holodeck-generated stuff are replicated)

2. Based on that assumption, you suddenly found a magical way to imply that Borg drones have forcefields capable to repel KE attacks. In other words, "IF no projectile has never been fired at the Borg, THEN they have KE-repelling forcefields." Now see why your claim is utterly pathetic?
BTW, no one has shot a gun to me before, so by your logic, I have a KE-repelling forcefields, right? LOL!!!

3. To further support your claim, you show me a URL about a type of Federation projectile, and claiming that they never been used on the Borg. So the fact that Federation projectile weapon exists and never been used on the Borg automatically translates that the weapon must be ineffective against the Borg, due to Borg drone KE-repelling forcefield in your delusion.
You simply ignore **other** possibilities like:
- probably the Federation doesn't have yet the opportunity to use the weapon in the battlefield against the Bord
- probably the projectile weapon is ineffective in the battlefield due to its reliance to transporter
- probably the weapon is still in experimental stage
And the most funny of all, you use the URL as a proof that projectile weapons will be ineffective against the Borg, DESPITE the quote in the URL that says the opposite.

4. But the ***worst*** of all, you claim that Borg drone forcefield (IF EXIST anywhere else outside your delusion) will protect them from projectiles, but NOT from Bat'leth and claws, thus **simply ignoring the fact** that projectiles and claws are both KE attacks and most projectiles like arrows and bullets carries much more KE and *ENERGY INTENSITY* than most hand-to-hand weapons.

See? That's why you're being flamed, idiot.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

Is HotAss an insult?

Well, maybe if his name is HotStar I'll call him HickAss.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

I prefere the classic "FuckFace" myself.

[Sea Skimmer]

I prefere the classic "FuckFace" myself.

Shit for brains works just fine.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

Just got an idea.. Maybe we can create a poll like this:

Which is the most appropriate name for DarkStar?
- BaldStar
- DorkStar
- DumbShit
- FuckFace
- FuckStar

[Darth Wong]

Not to break up this Darkstar-bashing session or anything, but I just added "The Raven".

[Typhonis 1]

Hell keep DarkStar *LMAO* It can be taken to mean a star that has burned out and is Dark .IE a dim bulb

[SPOOFE]

Wait, wait, wait... the bullets in FC were unable to deliver kinetic energy because they were made out of energy?

Let me repeat that, stressing one important word... the bullets in FC were unable to deliver kinetic ENERGY because they were made out of energy?

Ladies and gentlemen, we've left the realm of reality and have entered the realm of boingy-boing!!

[Cpt_Frank]

And, by the way, FuckStar, I think your claim about Borg's KE shield is utterly ridiculous. Consider this:

1. You pointed out that no projectile has never been fired at the Borg (thus ignoring the facts that holodeck-generated stuff are replicated)

2. Based on that assumption, you suddenly found a magical way to imply that Borg drones have forcefields capable to repel KE attacks. In other words, "IF no projectile has never been fired at the Borg, THEN they have KE-repelling forcefields." Now see why your claim is utterly pathetic?
BTW, no one has shot a gun to me before, so by your logic, I have a KE-repelling forcefields, right? LOL!!!

3. To further support your claim, you show me a URL about a type of Federation projectile, and claiming that they never been used on the Borg. So the fact that Federation projectile weapon exists and never been used on the Borg automatically translates that the weapon must be ineffective against the Borg, due to Borg drone KE-repelling forcefield in your delusion.
You simply ignore **other** possibilities like:
- probably the Federation doesn't have yet the opportunity to use the weapon in the battlefield against the Bord
- probably the projectile weapon is ineffective in the battlefield due to its reliance to transporter
- probably the weapon is still in experimental stage
And the most funny of all, you use the URL as a proof that projectile weapons will be ineffective against the Borg, DESPITE the quote in the URL that says the opposite.

4. But the ***worst*** of all, you claim that Borg drone forcefield (IF EXIST anywhere else outside your delusion) will protect them from projectiles, but NOT from Bat'leth and claws, thus **simply ignoring the fact** that projectiles and claws are both KE attacks and most projectiles like arrows and bullets carries much more KE and *ENERGY INTENSITY* than most hand-to-hand weapons.

See? That's why you're being flamed, idiot.

Hey, here's an idea how he came on that idea: In Stargate, in one Episode there's a Goahould (I butchered the spelling) who has personal shield which repells bullets, but not a thrown knife.
That's just like DarkStar's Almighty Infailable Uber-Borg Shield.
Now he's starting to incorporate tech from other sci-fi series into his argumentation.

[Tsyroc]

Wait, wait, wait... the bullets in FC were unable to deliver kinetic energy because they were made out of energy?

Let me repeat that, stressing one important word... the bullets in FC were unable to deliver kinetic ENERGY because they were made out of energy?

Ladies and gentlemen, we've left the realm of reality and have entered the realm of boingy-boing!!

Actually what have we seen the personal sheilds of the Borg drones actually block? Phasers, anything else? Perhaps they can only block certain kinds of energy <engage Treknobable> of certain wavelengths, modulations etc...

Unless the holodeck actually puts some real mater into the holo enviroment those bullets were made by force field projectors. So either they are mater and the Borg shields didn't stop them or they are energy and the Borg shields didn't stop them.

Now the only way I can see that the Borg can block stuff like a Fundatrekie thinks and jive with FC is if the FC drones didn't have enough time to adjust to the holobullets (slow network processing?). That would make more sense than the Borg not being able to block solid bullets because certainly some race has used simple projectiles against the Borg before. Then again, Worf being able to slice and dice drones may prove the point that the Borg can't defend agains non-energy attacks. You would think that Worf wasn't the first one to try using a blade against the Borg. It is possible that it hasn't happened enough in the past that the Borg have bothered to come up with a defense for it because they haven't taken enough casualties from blades to bother.

By the way I like the comment about energy weapons not delivering kinetic energy. I guess that's the same as them not delivering any force whatsoever.

[seanrobertson]

Not to break up this Darkstar-bashing session or anything, but I just added "The Raven".

Michael,

It's a good addition, as usual, but I'm curious about one of your conclusions:

VOY Season 4, Ep# 74: "The Raven"

(Script)
JANEWAY: When I was a child, I studied these drawings. I even built some of the models. Da Vinci has always been an inspiration to me.


(Analysis)
Culture: proof that Starfleet officers are trained in the arts, not the sciences. Da Vinci may have a great "Renaissance Man", but his "prescient" inventions were nothing of the kind, and any engineer would know that the instant he saw one of Da Vinci's "designs".

The bit about doodles was hilarious. I don't know why, but your emphasis
on a particular word and choice of words is often really funny...<shrugs>

I don't get why Starfleet officers would be trained in the arts, though.
Janeway said she studied Da Vinci's work as a "child." That's pretty
broad; Matthew could study those doodles, and he is a child.

I don't doubt the conclusion--Picard was much the same way, studying
Latin at SF Academy IIRC--but I'm not sure about the way in which
you're deriving that conclusion. It also seems hasty to conclude that
all Starfleet officers would be similarly trained, though the ciriculum
couldn't be *that* different for various students. It is, after all, a quasi-military academy.

Janewad had also said something of her engineering background
in another episode. Maybe she did in fact see those sketches
at the Academy, but instead of seeing them for what they are,
daydreaming, she was the type that furiously took notes on everything
the professors said, even jokes

(Oh, right. Check the episode "Sacred Ground," from season three.
To save Kes, Janewad has to embrace "faith" to go through
a multi-hundred MW forcefield. The quality of her training might
be more evident there.)

Again from the analysis:

These were not prescient designs; these were doodles that he obviously knocked off in his spare time. Artists and philosophers may lack the skills to differentiate between a doodle and a design, but if Starfleet officers had a fraction of the technical training they're supposed to have, they would know better.

Hmm...okay. I see your point better now. I'd argue that her
childhood fascination with the guy might've rose-colored her perspective
of the thought/lack thereof behind his drawings, perhaps, meaning
she did know better but chooses to eschew critical thinking when it "hurts."

Given the frequency w/ which she interacted with a Da Vinci mock-up
on the holodeck, I think it's safe to say he is a sort of soft spot to her;
further, we know Janeway is prone to shrug off rational thought when
she gets emotional (see "Sacred Ground"). Maybe the limit of her
education is that she never learned just how important science is,
ironically, from not studying some of the arts like logic (or paying
attn. thereto). Speaking only for myself, I gained a much healthier
apprecation for a technical education after I spent some time in
philosophy courses. I might've been the exception, though...a lot
of my classmates were probably converted to mystics or nihilists
after everything was said and done!

That's a pretty minor point...I'm spending so much time on it for
no other reason than I'm out of work at the moment D'oH!

I do disagree with the following conclusion, though, and have something
tangible to support the disagreement, from the same episode no less.

(Script)

7 OF 9: You are Talaxian.
NEELIX: Guilty as charged.
7 OF 9: Species 218.
NEELIX: I suppose so.
7 OF 9: Your biological and technological distinctiveness was added to our own.
NEELIX: I hadn't realized that.
7 OF 9: A small freighter containing a crew of 39. Taken in the Dalmine Sector. They were easily assimilated. Their dense musculature made them excellent drones.


(Analysis)
The Borg: The Talaxians were just the 218th species encountered by the Borg. Interestingly enough, their natural musculature proved useful to the Borg, which confirms the suspicion that the strength of a Borg drone is due to its biological characteristics, rather than mechanical strength due to exoskeletal systems. Many Trekkies have tried to use Data's slow and seemingly difficult physical contest with Locutus as proof that Borg exoskeletons grant superhuman strength, but it is clear now that Data was merely moving slowly and holding back in order to avoid injuring Picard.


Here again, I partly agree with much of what you're saying: Data
pulling Picard/Locutus' arm back didn't impress me too much,
either--especially when Locutus' Borg hand came right off! I have
no doubt Data was simply being careful. At ten times the strength
of a "man" ("Offspring"), being careful with a sixtyish guy would
be smart, Borg or not.

I also agree that the exoskeletal systems might not be responsible
for Borg strength, but I don't think their strength has anything in
particular to do with muscular output. (That is, at least *solely*.
It's a potential false dichotomy to say that either the implants
or the body make a drone strong; a big strong body, coupled with
cyborg stuff, could simply make that body stronger.)

Why? Because of Seven's fight with Tuvok. Seven is almost devoid
of exoskeletal systems, but she's also a slender woman. Her body
couldn't possibly be very strong on its own, even relative to an average
man's. Yet, when Paris and Tuvok try to catch Seven, and Tuvok
plans to beam over and fight with her, Paris says, "No offense, Tuvok,
but a Borg against a Vulcan? You wouldn't stand a chance!" Tuvok
concurs but says he has the element of surprise.

Naturally, he beams over and Seven easily overpowers him. Minus
a naturally strong body, minus implants.

I submit that Talaxians' dense musculature (what happened to creampuff
Neelix?) made them suitable to be "tactical drones." We hear about
these in "Dark Frontier," when the Hansens beam one off of its
cube. Anyway, an already muscular body would be that much easier
to make stronger: the nanoprobes might improve neuromuscular
efficiency, making a muscular drone potentially more valuable at lifting etc.
than a scrawny one (whose musculature can only be enhanced so
much, given its lack of relative size).

Also, in the case of Seven and other naturally smaller types, nanoprobes
might have some effect on hormones; e.g., releasing adrenaline. It's the only way I can think of that explains why little Seven could whip Tuvok (who, as a Vulcan, is supposedly thrice an avg. man's strength, ref. "Take Me Out to the Holosuite" among others).

Everything else I found gold. The point about internalized shield
generators was particularly well-taken. Might it be possible to
determine an upper-limit for the kinetic energy of a hand-held
phaser shot from this--that is, an approximate range at which
a shield emitter would be torn from the body's flesh? It'd depend on
where it was, I suppose, but I'd have to guess it couldn't vary
*that* wildly.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

And, by the way, FuckStar, I think your claim about Borg's KE shield is utterly ridiculous. Consider this:

1. You pointed out that no projectile has never been fired at the Borg (thus ignoring the facts that holodeck-generated stuff are replicated)

2. Based on that assumption, you suddenly found a magical way to imply that Borg drones have forcefields capable to repel KE attacks. In other words, "IF no projectile has never been fired at the Borg, THEN they have KE-repelling forcefields." Now see why your claim is utterly pathetic?
BTW, no one has shot a gun to me before, so by your logic, I have a KE-repelling forcefields, right? LOL!!!

3. To further support your claim, you show me a URL about a type of Federation projectile, and claiming that they never been used on the Borg. So the fact that Federation projectile weapon exists and never been used on the Borg automatically translates that the weapon must be ineffective against the Borg, due to Borg drone KE-repelling forcefield in your delusion.
You simply ignore **other** possibilities like:
- probably the Federation doesn't have yet the opportunity to use the weapon in the battlefield against the Bord
- probably the projectile weapon is ineffective in the battlefield due to its reliance to transporter
- probably the weapon is still in experimental stage
And the most funny of all, you use the URL as a proof that projectile weapons will be ineffective against the Borg, DESPITE the quote in the URL that says the opposite.

4. But the ***worst*** of all, you claim that Borg drone forcefield (IF EXIST anywhere else outside your delusion) will protect them from projectiles, but NOT from Bat'leth and claws, thus **simply ignoring the fact** that projectiles and claws are both KE attacks and most projectiles like arrows and bullets carries much more KE and *ENERGY INTENSITY* than most hand-to-hand weapons.

See? That's why you're being flamed, idiot.

Hey, here's an idea how he came on that idea: In Stargate, in one Episode there's a Goahould (I butchered the spelling) who has personal shield which repells bullets, but not a thrown knife.
That's just like DarkStar's Almighty Infailable Uber-Borg Shield.
Now he's starting to incorporate tech from other sci-fi series into his argumentation.

You know what, the way FuckStar twisting logic (If no one has fired projectile weapons on them, then it must be because they're immune to projectile weapons) to support his ass, as well as picking a possibility favors him while completely ignoring other possibilities, not to mention his reading comprehension, may indicate that his thinking capability is about as equal as an average Borg drone.

[DarkStar]

Darkstar is right in that those bullets may have been holograms and not replicated material.

"With the holodeck safeties off, even holographic bullets can kill."
- Picard, First Contact.

I really don't see why there's a debate.

[VF5SS]

Well he could mean that with the safties off, the Holodeck starts to replicate the dangerous objects that interact with people. Its up to interpretation...

[VF5SS]

Nevermind what I just said... Shit, damn headache.

[VF5SS]

Well I guess the debate is that if a hologrpahic bullet exhibts all the properties of a real bullet, the k.e., speed, and everything behind it then there is very little difference that would make the holo-bullet super powerful.

[DarkStar]

For instance, Picard walked out of the holodeck with a lipstick print on his cheek in "The Big Goodbye".

So what? It's an inanimate object that the participants are expected to interact with a lot. Bullets flying through the air do not qualify, hopefully.

an ensign was shot by a bullet in "The Big Goodbye",

1. It may not have been a physical, matter bullet.
2. If it can be proved that it was, then Picard's line about holographic bullets would seem to indicate a safety modification to the Holodeck in the interim.

However, I suspect that it wasn't a physical bullet, since it wouldn't make sense to have matter objects flying through the air in the holodeck. Even though the whole thing is forcefields and so on, we know the walls are just projections, as per Data throwing the rock into the wall in "Encounter at Farpoint".

A bullet hitting the same wall just wouldn't be a good plan.

Data walked out of the holodeck holding a paper in "Elementary Dear Data",

So? It's an inanimate object that the participants are expected to interact with a lot. Bullets flying through the air do not qualify, hopefully.

Wesley dripped water on the carpet outside the holodeck after falling in a river IN the holodeck,

So? It's an inanimate object that the participants are expected to interact with a lot. Bullets flying through the air do not qualify, hopefully.

Wesley threw a snowball from the holodeck and hit Picard,

So? It's an inanimate object that the participants are expected to interact with a lot. Bullets flying through the air do not qualify, hopefully.

Worf worried about the holo-bullets in "Fistfull of Datas",

So? The holodeck safeties were off. When the safeties are off, even a holographic bullet can kill.

Seven and Neelix were cut down by bullets in "The Killing Game"

I hardly think that the Hirogen-infested ship example constitutes a basis for judging standard holodeck practice.

[TheDarkling]

Darkstar is right in that those bullets may have been holograms and not replicated material.

"With the holodeck safeties off, even holographic bullets can kill."
- Picard, First Contact.

I really don't see why there's a debate.

That actually what I was thinking about when I said you may be right but I saw the counter argument that Picard was simply calling it a holographic bullet to explain it to the Yokel without it getting to complicated, coming so I just said that line of reasoning was void for both sides.

I also think you make a good case for KE shields not being employed due to it interfering with Drone operation was valid combined with the power concerns the Borg have shown over personal shields I just dont think theres enough evidence to discount Borg KE shielding.

[Darth Wong]

I also think you make a good case for KE shields not being employed due to it interfering with Drone operation was valid combined with the power concerns the Borg have shown over personal shields I just dont think theres enough evidence to discount Borg KE shielding.

Not even when some of that evidence is the laws of physics, ie- Newton's third law? Methinks theDarkling doth protest too much.

[TheDarkling]

???

[DarkStar]

1. You pointed out that no projectile has never been fired at the Borg (thus ignoring the facts that holodeck-generated stuff are replicated)

Not true. Picard says the bullets are holographic.

2. Based on that assumption, you suddenly found a magical way to imply that Borg drones have forcefields capable to repel KE attacks. In other words, "IF no projectile has never been fired at the Borg, THEN they have KE-repelling forcefields." Now see why your claim is utterly pathetic?
BTW, no one has shot a gun to me before, so by your logic, I have a KE-repelling forcefields, right? LOL!!!

It was conjecture, and expressly stated as such. It is no worse than Warsie conjecture . . . except, of course, in your view, where it is worse because it is not anti-Trek.

3. To further support your claim, you show me a URL about a type of Federation projectile, and claiming that they never been used on the Borg. So the fact that Federation projectile weapon exists and never been used on the Borg automatically translates that the weapon must be ineffective against the Borg, due to Borg drone KE-repelling forcefield in your delusion.

It is a more reasonable presumption than simply assuming everyone magically forgot about bullets.

You simply ignore **other** possibilities like:
- probably the Federation doesn't have yet the opportunity to use the weapon in the battlefield against the Bord

No opportunity? The replicators were not down when the Borg boarded the E-E. The replicators were not down when Voyager had Borg troubles.

- probably the projectile weapon is ineffective in the battlefield due to its reliance to transporter

I'm talking about the original, not the modification.

4. But the ***worst*** of all, you claim that Borg drone forcefield (IF EXIST anywhere else outside your delusion) will protect them from projectiles, but NOT from Bat'leth and claws, thus **simply ignoring the fact** that projectiles and claws are both KE attacks and most projectiles like arrows and bullets carries much more KE and *ENERGY INTENSITY* than most hand-to-hand weapons. [/quote]

It would be illogical for a KE shield to prevent all KE when you want to interact with the environment at the same time. A selective KE shield would make more sense.

See? That's why you're being flamed, idiot.

I'm being flamed because I disagree . . . I am outside the Warsie support group, and stand against the closely guarded beliefs, therefore I am the enemy.

[DarkStar]

Actually what have we seen the personal sheilds of the Borg drones actually block? Phasers, anything else? Perhaps they can only block certain kinds of energy <engage Treknobable> of certain wavelengths, modulations etc...

Phasers are particle weapons, as per First Contact, Enterprise, et cetera.