Stormtroopers vs THESE Federation troops

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Alyeska
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Post by Alyeska »

Lord Poe wrote:
Alyeska wrote:Besides, we know that phaser rifles have multiple power settings. Insurrection and Nemesis shows that the rifles are quite powerful.
Yeah, we saw how powerful they were in Nemesis. They broke like a broomstick when force is applied to them.
Just like they broke in First Contact when force was applied. Oh wait...
The rifle pulses do not show the same properties as the beam weapons. They seem to operate under a much different principle and they have a fair amount of concussion to them. Their demonstrated firepower in both Insurrection and Nemesis is quite nice.
What did they do in those movies that phasers haven't done?
Explossive power, high damage, etc...
The Hazard Team encountered corrosive chemcials in Elite Force and their shield protection prevented any real damage.

Bullshit. I played the game, and you survive as long as you have hit points. There are no "shields", and as soon as you stop screaming
"EYARRGH!!" you're dead. I refer to the derelict the team enters to fire at the Harvester ship. Where are these corrosive-stopping shields then?
Earlier in the game the character has to move through a room with corrosive chemicals on the floor.
Furthermore the grenade launcher is most definately not a LOS weapon.


WTF are you talking about? The grenade launcher is definitely LOS. Unless you are playing with a MOD that allows you to fire a grenade launcher behind your back and around a corner or something, Alyeska?
It is ballistic, hence it is not LOS.
Though I gotta admit not having mortars is somewhat big, but their use is not as important considering the Hazard Team does deal with more enclosed enviroments.
Maybe they should jump ship to Kirk's Enterprise. He knows about Federation mortars. (Arena)
[/quote]

For the missions the Hazard Team conducts, mortars are not needed quite so much.
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Post by MKSheppard »

Illuminatus Primus wrote: Assault Troopers (ref: Rebellion Era Sourcebook)
So you're using WotC bullshit?
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Post by Lord Poe »

Alyeska wrote:
Lord Poe wrote:
Alyeska wrote:Besides, we know that phaser rifles have multiple power settings. Insurrection and Nemesis shows that the rifles are quite powerful.
Yeah, we saw how powerful they were in Nemesis. They broke like a broomstick when force is applied to them.
Just like they broke in First Contact when force was applied. Oh wait...
How does this invalide my point above about a rifle from NEMESIS, one of two movies you cited in your last post, neither of which was "First Contact"? :roll:


The rifle pulses do not show the same properties as the beam weapons. They seem to operate under a much different principle and they have a fair amount of concussion to them. Their demonstrated firepower in both Insurrection and Nemesis is quite nice.
What did they do in those movies that phasers haven't done?
Explossive power, high damage, etc...[/quote]

Can you....give a specific example?
The Hazard Team encountered corrosive chemcials in Elite Force and their shield protection prevented any real damage.

Bullshit. I played the game, and you survive as long as you have hit points. There are no "shields", and as soon as you stop screaming
"EYARRGH!!" you're dead. I refer to the derelict the team enters to fire at the Harvester ship. Where are these corrosive-stopping shields then?
Earlier in the game the character has to move through a room with corrosive chemicals on the floor.[/quote]

YESSS......and you go "EYARRGH!!" "EYARRGH!!""EYARRGH!!" until you either die or get off the floor.
Furthermore the grenade launcher is most definately not a LOS weapon.


WTF are you talking about? The grenade launcher is definitely LOS. Unless you are playing with a MOD that allows you to fire a grenade launcher behind your back and around a corner or something, Alyeska?
It is ballistic, hence it is not LOS.[/quote]

Do you ah, conceed that you need to aim the fucking thing at the target you choose to destroy? Or will it spin around your head before it lets fly?
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Post by Alyeska »

Lord Poe wrote:How does this invalide my point above about a rifle from NEMESIS, one of two movies you cited in your last post, neither of which was "First Contact"? :roll:
You can site a single example of the rifle being weak in physical strength. I can site multiple examples of it being physicaly strong as well as a powerful firepower.
Can you....give a specific example?
I already did.
Do you ah, conceed that you need to aim the fucking thing at the target you choose to destroy? Or will it spin around your head before it lets fly?
You don't aim directly at the target, you aim a balistic path on the target. That is not LOS. Unless you are saying SW mortars are seeking devices that can turn on a dime and move through doorways, the grenade launcher operates under a similar premise as the mortars.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

MKSheppard wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote: Assault Troopers (ref: Rebellion Era Sourcebook)
So you're using WotC bullshit?
You have no discression--do you?

The RPG saying a certain kind of trooper exists and relying on WEG for accurate--and counter to other official and canon accounts for Rebellion scale were not the same thing.
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Post by Lord Poe »

Alyeska wrote:
Lord Poe wrote:How does this invalide my point above about a rifle from NEMESIS, one of two movies you cited in your last post, neither of which was "First Contact"? :roll:
You can site a single example of the rifle being weak in physical strength. I can site multiple examples of it being physicaly strong as well as a powerful firepower.
Mind doing so? Federation weapons falling apart isn't relegated to Nemesis. During the fight between Lore and Data in "Datalore", a phaser breaks when it hits the floor.
Can you....give a specific example?
I already did.[/quote]

Where?? You named A movie: First Contact. That's not a specific example.
Do you ah, conceed that you need to aim the fucking thing at the target you choose to destroy? Or will it spin around your head before it lets fly?
You don't aim directly at the target, you aim a balistic path on the target. That is not LOS. Unless you are saying SW mortars are seeking devices that can turn on a dime and move through doorways, the grenade launcher operates under a similar premise as the mortars.[/quote]

Oh, I see. You're using the Jonathan Boyd/Chris O'Farrell form or argument; picking nits. BTW, concession accepted on those non existant shields in Elite Force.
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Post by MKSheppard »

Illuminatus Primus wrote: The RPG saying a certain kind of trooper exists and relying on WEG for accurate--and counter to other official and canon accounts for Rebellion scale were not the same thing.
Anything that WotC says, I'd take it with a fucking big grain of salt.

These are the yahoos who tried to fob off WEG's Far Orbit Nebulon B
deck plans as "typical starship plans", despite the deck plans
being specifically optimized for the nebulon B's narrow profile...

And their insane system of 1,001 jedi/sith classes...
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Post by Joe Momma »

Here's a more detailed picture of the hazard suit from the first game, FWIW:

http://www.ravensoft.com/eliteforce/hsuitmed.shtml

There were shields on the suits, but they functioned the same way armor does in every other FPS game, i.e. basically extra hit points. Many environmental forms of damage bypassed it to a greater or lesser degree, such as the aforementioned corrosive materials.

There were a couple of indirect-fire weapons in the game (the scavanger's rifle and the grenade launcher had indirect-fire modes), but both were short- to close-combat range. This is probably appropriate to the hazard force's intended role as a heavily-armed security force; the team wasn't trained or equipped to serve as a combat infantry unit and would probably suffer in comparison to one in a straight-up military engagement with the likes of Stormtroopers.

(Actually, the traditional redshirts might have an advantage the hazard team lacks. Normal Trek security/military is so fucking inept that the stormtroopers would have to cover their mouths with their hands to keep from screaming with laughter and thus giving away their positions, making it hard to keep their weapons at the ready. The hazard team probably wouldn't embarrass themselves to that degree.)

As a tangential issue, while I understand that for this thread only there was an assumption that Elite Force is canon, I still don't think some of the concepts would transfer well to "real" Star Trek. Some of this might be game balance issues -- the built-in replicators were a nifty in-game way to explain how the troops could carry the usual FPS arsenal, but might not work in real ST anymore than the performance of X-wings can be judged based on their Lucasarts games.

There might be some other contradictory issues as well. For example, if the mini-photon torps use M/AM just like the larger versions, they'd be dumping a fair amount of gamma radiation into the environment, which would be bad both in terms of collateral damage and for the hazard team themselves (given that hard radiation has been repeatedly shown to cause problems with Federation technology).

I'd point out that some of the weapons such as the tetryon disruptor was a Hirogen weapon, not a Federation weapon (though the Feds captured some), but that's probably picking nits.

Still, there were some concepts in EF that should have been seen in real ST:

*Using environment suits when beaming into unknown areas (though they still had an unfortunate tendency to doff the helmets as soon as systems were restored with no thought to risk of contamination).

*Having protective gear in general -- I think the idea was that the hazard team suits did give the wearer some limited protection, even if it wasn't any more than might be provided by a flak jacket or the body glove of a Stormtrooper might provide.

*Having an away team with specialized training for potential security dangers that could be faced when beaming into the unknown (though they still had deadweight like that cringing assclown Chell - I guess every vessel needs a Barclay).

*Using junior officers for away teams instead of sending the senior officers into potentially dangerous areas (though senior officers did accompany them on some missions).

*The transport inhibitors weren't a bad idea, though those and some of the other electronic devices might have made the hazard team members easier to pick up on sensors.

(Hey, don't replicators work on the same principles as transporters? Does that mean that the transport inhibitors would inhibit the replicators used to "summon" their weapons? Maybe they turn off when the replicator kicks in...which means your transporter protection turns off every time you unholster your gun.)

Sadly, I don't think it even would have cost much to do on any of the series beyond manufacturing the suits themselves. Of course, the idea of any sort of dedicated military training (even to fight, well, you know, aggressive enemy forces out to murder you and everyone else on the ship and possibly rape the corpses afterward) might be seen as anathema to the likes of B&B.

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Post by Slartibartfast »

The photon torpedo minilauncher is definitely a LOS weapon, since it only fires in a straight line. There were a couple indirect fire weapons, but none of them was the photonz.

And the shields weren't completely impermeable. Some weapons and explosions and environmental stuff did damage the wearer. Kinda like half-life.
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Post by Slartibartfast »

Damn, I should have uploaded somewhere that mod I made years back for Duke Nukem that replaced the rocket launcher with a mini photon launcher and the pistol with a phaser... and they were cool looking too :(

I guess it's all lostech now.
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Post by Lord Pounder »

This thread is highly amusing. I have visions of a 14yo, (Alyeska) wearing a modified trek uniform and clutching a final straw.

Junior i have news for ya. Unless Voyager is packing 15,000 of these Elite Force troops they are gonna die horribly. I also have visions of sever large boobed women being steped on while they wave arround their "New Uber Phaser Rifles".
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Post by Alyeska »

Darth Pounder wrote:This thread is highly amusing. I have visions of a 14yo, (Alyeska) wearing a modified trek uniform and clutching a final straw.

Junior i have news for ya. Unless Voyager is packing 15,000 of these Elite Force troops they are gonna die horribly. I also have visions of sever large boobed women being steped on while they wave arround their "New Uber Phaser Rifles".
You know, when I said Stormtroopers vs THESE Federation troops. I wasn't stating every single soldier the Empire has against 20 Hazard Team members. I was going more along the lines of a 1-1 numbers comparison.
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Post by Grand Admiral Thrawn »

You do realize a grenade launcher can only be fired at the range the operator can target? And the only thing HT has (with the exception of the rifle IIRC) is aiming with no sights. And the Grenade launcher does JS to anything.


Meanwhile, this HT will be obliterated by mortar fire and repeating blasters.
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Post by Alyeska »

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:You do realize a grenade launcher can only be fired at the range the operator can target? And the only thing HT has (with the exception of the rifle IIRC) is aiming with no sights. And the Grenade launcher does JS to anything.


Meanwhile, this HT will be obliterated by mortar fire and repeating blasters.
It could be argued that the weapons we see in EF are dumbed down to a degree for game play. This explains why the Type-2 and Type-3 phasers don't display full firepower.
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Post by Grand Admiral Thrawn »

Alyeska wrote: It could be argued that the weapons we see in EF are dumbed down to a degree for game play. This explains why the Type-2 and Type-3 phasers don't display full firepower.


So we're randomly going to amp up weapons for no reason? After all, their weapons are designed for CLOSE QUARTERS, and they were spandex. Long range shrapnel grenades not only are useless, but lethal.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

MKSheppard wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote: The RPG saying a certain kind of trooper exists and relying on WEG for accurate--and counter to other official and canon accounts for Rebellion scale were not the same thing.
Anything that WotC says, I'd take it with a fucking big grain of salt.

These are the yahoos who tried to fob off WEG's Far Orbit Nebulon B
deck plans as "typical starship plans", despite the deck plans
being specifically optimized for the nebulon B's narrow profile...

And their insane system of 1,001 jedi/sith classes...
Again, how is this relevent involving a heavy support class or Clonetrooper-like subtype of Stormie?

Oh that's right, its a red herring and hasty generalization about a source when the fact cited has no contradiction to technical information or common sense.
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Post by Alyeska »

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:
Alyeska wrote: It could be argued that the weapons we see in EF are dumbed down to a degree for game play. This explains why the Type-2 and Type-3 phasers don't display full firepower.


So we're randomly going to amp up weapons for no reason? After all, their weapons are designed for CLOSE QUARTERS, and they were spandex. Long range shrapnel grenades not only are useless, but lethal.
You could correspond firepower when you increase firepower from the Rifles and compare that with the grenade launchers. Another possibility is to compare the Type-2 phaser vaporizing Borg drones to the grenade damage done in the game.
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Post by Howedar »

Darth Pounder wrote:This thread is highly amusing. I have visions of a 14yo, (Alyeska) wearing a modified trek uniform and clutching a final straw.

Junior i have news for ya. Unless Voyager is packing 15,000 of these Elite Force troops they are gonna die horribly. I also have visions of sever large boobed women being steped on while they wave arround their "New Uber Phaser Rifles".
You're a fucking worthless troll. I respect Alyeska as more than 99% of the people here, and a damn sight more than the likes of you.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Alyeska wrote:
Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:You do realize a grenade launcher can only be fired at the range the operator can target? And the only thing HT has (with the exception of the rifle IIRC) is aiming with no sights. And the Grenade launcher does JS to anything.

Meanwhile, this HT will be obliterated by mortar fire and repeating blasters.
It could be argued that the weapons we see in EF are dumbed down to a degree for game play. This explains why the Type-2 and Type-3 phasers don't display full firepower.
Sounds like you're trying to have it both ways. I thought you said you were comparing this EF Trek to stormies, not some amalgam of the best parts of EF Trek and canon Trek that you've constructed yourself.
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Post by Alyeska »

Darth Wong wrote:
Alyeska wrote:
Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:You do realize a grenade launcher can only be fired at the range the operator can target? And the only thing HT has (with the exception of the rifle IIRC) is aiming with no sights. And the Grenade launcher does JS to anything.

Meanwhile, this HT will be obliterated by mortar fire and repeating blasters.
It could be argued that the weapons we see in EF are dumbed down to a degree for game play. This explains why the Type-2 and Type-3 phasers don't display full firepower.
Sounds like you're trying to have it both ways. I thought you said you were comparing this EF Trek to stormies, not some amalgam of the best parts of EF Trek and canon Trek that you've constructed yourself.
Well you have to take from some of the real Trek to get figures on the capabilities of the weapons shown in both. From that you can derive possible capabilities for the EF only weapons.
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Post by Howedar »

I hate when I do that.

Whichever mod deletes the above could delete this as well as it will no longer have any meaning.
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Post by Slartibartfast »

Alyeska wrote:
Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:You do realize a grenade launcher can only be fired at the range the operator can target? And the only thing HT has (with the exception of the rifle IIRC) is aiming with no sights. And the Grenade launcher does JS to anything.


Meanwhile, this HT will be obliterated by mortar fire and repeating blasters.
It could be argued that the weapons we see in EF are dumbed down to a degree for game play. This explains why the Type-2 and Type-3 phasers don't display full firepower.
You're treating this game as the only "canon" evidence about this Hazard Team for purposes of this thread. Saying that the weapons are "dumbed down" makes no sense. Dumbed down from what? The ones we see in the shows? Well I didn't see any.
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Post by Alyeska »

Slartibartfast wrote:
Alyeska wrote:
Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:You do realize a grenade launcher can only be fired at the range the operator can target? And the only thing HT has (with the exception of the rifle IIRC) is aiming with no sights. And the Grenade launcher does JS to anything.


Meanwhile, this HT will be obliterated by mortar fire and repeating blasters.
It could be argued that the weapons we see in EF are dumbed down to a degree for game play. This explains why the Type-2 and Type-3 phasers don't display full firepower.
You're treating this game as the only "canon" evidence about this Hazard Team for purposes of this thread. Saying that the weapons are "dumbed down" makes no sense. Dumbed down from what? The ones we see in the shows? Well I didn't see any.
I am using the game as a source for additional information. Using that line of logic then we can't even draw speed or firepower capabilities on Voyager in the game. That is clearly false because we have the TV series for additional information. Hell, the intro movie for EF is exactly the same as the credits intro to Voyager.
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Post by Lord Pounder »

Howedar wrote:
Darth Pounder wrote:This thread is highly amusing. I have visions of a 14yo, (Alyeska) wearing a modified trek uniform and clutching a final straw.

Junior i have news for ya. Unless Voyager is packing 15,000 of these Elite Force troops they are gonna die horribly. I also have visions of sever large boobed women being steped on while they wave arround their "New Uber Phaser Rifles".
You're a fucking worthless troll. I respect Alyeska as more than 99% of the people here, and a damn sight more than the likes of you.
And this relates to this debate how? Oh thats right it doesn't. Very good junior.
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Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Darth Pounder wrote:
Howedar wrote:
Darth Pounder wrote:This thread is highly amusing. I have visions of a 14yo, (Alyeska) wearing a modified trek uniform and clutching a final straw.

Junior i have news for ya. Unless Voyager is packing 15,000 of these Elite Force troops they are gonna die horribly. I also have visions of sever large boobed women being steped on while they wave arround their "New Uber Phaser Rifles".
You're a fucking worthless troll. I respect Alyeska as more than 99% of the people here, and a damn sight more than the likes of you.
And this relates to this debate how? Oh thats right it doesn't. Very good junior.
Neither did your post that was directed towards Alyeska, thus I recommend you shut the fuck up.
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