Finally adding to my canon database

[DarkStar]

Well I guess the debate is that if a hologrpahic bullet exhibts all the properties of a real bullet, the k.e., speed, and everything behind it then there is very little difference that would make the holo-bullet super powerful.

A projection of light, given solidity with a forcefield, cannot possibly possess the same KE as a bullet.

[Ender]

Funny how so much of your post is couched in the idea that you hope you are right.

If you are as correct as you assert, why is that?

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

Well I guess the debate is that if a hologrpahic bullet exhibts all the properties of a real bullet, the k.e., speed, and everything behind it then there is very little difference that would make the holo-bullet super powerful.

A projection of light, given solidity with a forcefield, cannot possibly possess the same KE as a bullet.

Which one has more *mass*, a bullet or a forcefield?

[Coyote]

A pit stop in the Canon discussion base...

A question for M'sieu Wong...

Are the LucasArts PC games (namely the "KYle Katarn" series) considered canon material for the purposes of this board? Is it worthwhile to discuss the hows, whys, and why nots of Dark Troopers, Reborn Jedi, and what we saw that droid doing at Gromas Mines?

And as for the ongoing fracas about the Borg and their ability to "assimilate" bullets directly into their chest cavities...

I'd swear on a stack of religious tomes of your choice piled to the sky that Captain Picard disengaged the safety protocols before shooting the Borg... and that we've seen similar disasterous results when the safety protocols are cut/disengaged in other programs. Thus, the Thompson's bullets were as real as real could be.

Another theory that I was debating with a friend of mine was that the Borg drones in question accessed the HoloDeck controls before going in and downloaded the program Picard was running and 'assimilated' as reality. Thus, they accepted the information that the bullets would kill them and ergo, they did...

Cool. My Glock is sufficient for at least the first 17 drones...

[AdmiralKanos]

A pit stop in the Canon discussion base...

A question for M'sieu Wong...

Are the LucasArts PC games (namely the "KYle Katarn" series) considered canon material for the purposes of this board? Is it worthwhile to discuss the hows, whys, and why nots of Dark Troopers, Reborn Jedi, and what we saw that droid doing at Gromas Mines?

Stories distributed along with the games are considered official, but the actual gameplay isn't (although it should be noted that some people believe the WEG gameplay rules are official). Mind you, "official" is subordinate to "canon", which is just the movies and directly associated materials, eg- novelizations.

And as for the ongoing fracas about the Borg and their ability to "assimilate" bullets directly into their chest cavities...

I'd swear on a stack of religious tomes of your choice piled to the sky that Captain Picard disengaged the safety protocols before shooting the Borg... and that we've seen similar disasterous results when the safety protocols are cut/disengaged in other programs. Thus, the Thompson's bullets were as real as real could be.

Another theory that I was debating with a friend of mine was that the Borg drones in question accessed the HoloDeck controls before going in and downloaded the program Picard was running and 'assimilated' as reality. Thus, they accepted the information that the bullets would kill them and ergo, they did...

Cool. My Glock is sufficient for at least the first 17 drones...

There is only one thing to note here (apart from Darkling's apparent ignorance of the ramifications of Newton's third law on physical collisions, judging by his weird response to me bringing it up): the SW side has a theory which accurately predicts the incident. The ST side has various methods with which they try to dismiss the incident as irrelevant.

One side can explain the evidence, the other side looks for reasons to dismiss it. 'Nuff said.

[DarkStar]

That actually what I was thinking about when I said you may be right but I saw the counter argument that Picard was simply calling it a holographic bullet to explain it to the Yokel without it getting to complicated, coming so I just said that line of reasoning was void for both sides.

I would expect that to produce more questions in Lily's mind. After all, a hologram is, for all intents and purposes, just a trick of light . . . smoke and mirrors, if you will.

I also think you make a good case for KE shields not being employed due to it interfering with Drone operation was valid combined with the power concerns the Borg have shown over personal shields I just dont think theres enough evidence to discount Borg KE shielding.

I'm not saying that they do have it . . . I'm just saying that the more reasonable inference is that they do, at least in reference to projectiles and such.

[DarkStar]

Which one has more *mass*, a bullet or a forcefield?

I wouldn't expect a forcefield to have any mass at all.

[LordShaithis]

Let's see if DorkStar can figure it out.

Let's just suppose borg drones have KE shields of INFINITE power, and that one of these drones is about to be hit by an out of control bus. What do you think will happen when the impact takes place?

The drone's shield generating implants will be ripped from their moorings, and the whole thing will be flung across the road as a well-shielded lump of disfigured meat.

The kinetic energy has to go SOMEWHERE.

[DarkStar]

I'd swear on a stack of religious tomes of your choice piled to the sky that Captain Picard disengaged the safety protocols before shooting the Borg... and that we've seen similar disasterous results when the safety protocols are cut/disengaged in other programs. Thus, the Thompson's bullets were as real as real could be.

'Disengaging the safeties' does not equal 'the holodeck starts turning everything into matter'.

Another theory that I was debating with a friend of mine was that the Borg drones in question accessed the HoloDeck controls before going in and downloaded the program Picard was running and 'assimilated' as reality. Thus, they accepted the information that the bullets would kill them and ergo, they did...

Actually, I considered this, but disregarded it . . . I was thinking of "Spectre of the Gun"[TOS] and the bullets without substance. (I guess it's a good thing there weren't holodecks in the 2260's.)

However, the guy who played Neelix was in First Contact, as a holographic character on the holodeck. One of the Borg used some sort of odd scanning beam and disrupted his image, so they ought to have realized that there was something fishy afoot, and not 'believed' in the reality of the situation . . . especially given that they had been assimilating E-E personnel, such as Ensign Lynch (who Picard killed).

[DarkStar]

Let's see if DorkStar can figure it out.

Let's just suppose borg drones have KE shields of INFINITE power, and that one of these drones is about to be hit by an out of control bus. What do you think will happen when the impact takes place?

Irrelevant. I'm not suggesting they can withstand a bus. Most bullets, however, have insufficient KE to cause a person to actually get knocked down by the impact of said bullet.

[Master of Ossus]

DarkStar, maybe turning off the safeties does mean that the holodeck starts turning dangerous weapons into real matter. That would actually help explain why disengaging them is so easily done, and done without even notifying anyone. If it was occasionally necessary to replicate a somewhat dangerous item, it would make sense that the safeties could be turned off. If that is not the case, then I think it is hardly justifiable to have that feature installed.

[DarkStar]

the SW side has a theory which accurately predicts the incident. The ST side has various methods with which they try to dismiss the incident as irrelevant.

One side can explain the evidence, the other side looks for reasons to dismiss it. 'Nuff said.

No . . . the pro-Wars side has an anti-Trek supposition which, they feel, explains the evidence. I have crafted a counterargument which, though contrary to the anti-Trek one and therefore rejected by some, also explains the evidence, and serves to explain more of it.

1. We have never seen projectile weapons used against the Borg.
2. Starfleet has access to modern-design projectile weapons, and can evidently recreate old ones. ("Field of Fire"[DS9], "A Private Little War"[TOS], "The Big Goodbye"[TNG], ST:FC, etc.)
3. Phasers are particle weapons (Picard in First Contact, Malcolm in "Broken Bow"[ENT], Tuvok in "Endgame"[VOY], et cetera)
4. Borg drone shields stop phasers. (ref.: Every Borg ep)
5. Borg drone shields do not stop physical attacks, such as hands or knives.
6. The Borg drones are capable of interacting with their environment.

So, which is the better synthesis of this data? That the Borg lack all forms of KE shielding, or that they are selective about it?

[SirNitram]

Dark Star, work out what would happen to the shield projectors if the shield absorbed the impact of a normal bullet.

Once you've realized that Conservation Of Momentum annihilates your theory, you can come back.

[DarkStar]

DarkStar, maybe turning off the safeties does mean that the holodeck starts turning dangerous weapons into real matter. That would actually help explain why disengaging them is so easily done, and done without even notifying anyone.

Easily? Data required Geordi to help turn the safeties off in "Descent"[TNG], simply because he wanted to make the holographic Borg drone stronger. It's a software thing . . . how much can be done before the user is in danger of biting the dust.

If it was occasionally necessary to replicate a somewhat dangerous item, it would make sense that the safeties could be turned off. If that is not the case, then I think it is hardly justifiable to have that feature installed.

Yar makes it clear in "Code of Honor"[TNG] that the safeties are in place to prevent harm to the participant, even in reference to her little holographic fighting buddy. There is no logical reason to assume that the safeties being turned off results in holodeck objects turning into real matter. If that were the case, there would have been no reason they couldn't let Moriarty off the holodeck.

[DarkStar]

Dark Star, work out what would happen to the shield projectors if the shield absorbed the impact of a normal bullet.

Once you've realized that Conservation Of Momentum annihilates your theory, you can come back.

Without knowing how the Borg drone shields are coupled to the drone's body, if at all, or how the force of an impact is coupled to the shield generator, if at all, your point is moot. The reason I say this is because Federation starship shields (as an example) are graviton-based spatial distortions, as per Geordi's screen in Generations. Projecting a graviton-based spatial distortion need not result in force rebound to the shield projector when an impact occurs. This is demonstrated in "Naked Now"[TNG], when Wesley's desktop tractor emitter was turned into a shield which easily repulsed the hefty assistant engineer . . . the emitter did not get knocked off the table when the guy hit the shield. Other graviton applications, such as tractor beams, do not result in such effects . . . note how Wesley was able to pick up a large chair with his desktop model effortlessly in the same episode.

Further, we don't know how the shield would behave when hit, but we know the bullet is going to be a most inelastic collider, further reducing the requirements placed on the emitter, if any.

[Master of Ossus]

There are, quite obviously, limits to what the holodeck can actually replicate. It clearly cannot replicate animals or people or something like that. However, it can replicate small arms. The safeties are easily turned off, which is what B'elanna showed us when she single handedly and secretly deactivated them and then re-activated them every time she ran a holodeck program, and wasn't caught for some time.

[Master of Ossus]

Yar makes it clear in "Code of Honor"[TNG] that the safeties are in place to prevent harm to the participant, even in reference to her little holographic fighting buddy. There is no logical reason to assume that the safeties being turned off results in holodeck objects turning into real matter. If that were the case, there would have been no reason they couldn't let Moriarty off the holodeck.

DumbFuck, don't you get it? I was proposing a reason why the safeties were left in such a manner that they could be deactivated so easily. Then you come back and explain that they are there to protect people. Okay, that's all well and good, but why would it be possible to deactivate them? Are you just saying that SF missed another blatantly obvious safety problem, or are you trying to say that there is no reason they should be easily deactivated? Clearly there is occasionally a legitimate need to turn the holodeck safeties off (they can also be monitored from the Bridge, which would be interesting if they were always to be left on), and I was proposing a reason why it might be the case. If you have a better reason, I'd be happy to hear it, but I don't see anything more reasonably than my solution.

[Lord Poe]

For instance, Picard walked out of the holodeck with a lipstick print on his cheek in "The Big Goodbye".

So what? It's an inanimate object that the participants are expected to interact with a lot. Bullets flying through the air do not qualify, hopefully.

Except when the safeties are off. That's why there ARE, safeties.

an ensign was shot by a bullet in "The Big Goodbye",

1. It may not have been a physical, matter bullet.

The evidence points to "may have been"

2. If it can be proved that it was,

It was. The ensign was bleeding. If it were a holographic bullet, why would there be blood from what is essentially an energy weapon?

then Picard's line about holographic bullets would seem to indicate a safety modification to the Holodeck in the interim.

No, it would indicate that when the safeties are off, the danger of being wounded in a given scenario is an actual concern.

However, I suspect that it wasn't a physical bullet, since it wouldn't make sense to have matter objects flying through the air in the holodeck.

Really? I guess you'd better inform Sisko of this the next time he runs his baseball holoprogram...

Data walked out of the holodeck holding a paper in "Elementary Dear Data",

So? It's an inanimate object that the participants are expected to interact with a lot. Bullets flying through the air do not qualify, hopefully.

Except when the safeties are off. That's why there ARE, safeties.

Wesley dripped water on the carpet outside the holodeck after falling in a river IN the holodeck,

So? It's an inanimate object that the participants are expected to interact with a lot. Bullets flying through the air do not qualify, hopefully.

Except when the safeties are off. That's why there ARE, safeties.

Wesley threw a snowball from the holodeck and hit Picard,

So? It's an inanimate object that the participants are expected to interact with a lot. Bullets flying through the air do not qualify, hopefully.

Except when the safeties are off. That's why there ARE, safeties.

Worf worried about the holo-bullets in "Fistfull of Datas",

So? The holodeck safeties were off. When the safeties are off, even a holographic bullet can kill.

Which are rendred real. If they weren't no one would be bleeding from the wound they cause.

Seven and Neelix were cut down by bullets in "The Killing Game"

I hardly think that the Hirogen-infested ship example constitutes a basis for judging standard holodeck practice.

It is when one factors in that Hirogen didn't HAVE any holotech, and simply switched the safeties off, instead of suddenly becoming holo-wizards.

[SirNitram]

Ahhh, Dumbshit, I was hoping you'd pull out that stupid Graviton nonsense. It's funny for someone like me, who understands what a 'graviton shield' would do and react like, to read a stupid little Trekkie like you state a GCS's is one.

But regardless, CoM dictates the Momentum must go somewhere. How the shield is made means nothing: The momentum must be conserved. Terry Prachett's Discworld, an entire planet shaped as a disc on four elephants and a turtle, manages CoM better than your theory.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

1. You pointed out that no projectile has never been fired at the Borg (thus ignoring the facts that holodeck-generated stuff are replicated)

Not true. Picard says the bullets are holographic.

They also call it "holodeck" despite the fact that objects there are replicated and still exists when taken off the holodeck.

2. Based on that assumption, you suddenly found a magical way to imply that Borg drones have forcefields capable to repel KE attacks. In other words, "IF no projectile has never been fired at the Borg, THEN they have KE-repelling forcefields." Now see why your claim is utterly pathetic?
BTW, no one has shot a gun to me before, so by your logic, I have a KE-repelling forcefields, right? LOL!!!

It was conjecture, and expressly stated as such. It is no worse than Warsie conjecture . . . except, of course, in your view, where it is worse because it is not anti-Trek.

A "conjecture" which *requires* you to select a possibility favors it without bothering to consider other possibilities. A "conjecture" based on premise that ignores the onscreen facts about holodeck-created objects.

3. To further support your claim, you show me a URL about a type of Federation projectile, and claiming that they never been used on the Borg. So the fact that Federation projectile weapon exists and never been used on the Borg automatically translates that the weapon must be ineffective against the Borg, due to Borg drone KE-repelling forcefield in your delusion.

It is a more reasonable presumption than simply assuming everyone magically forgot about bullets.

It is a **less** reasonable presumption than to assume that projectile weapons are simply no longer **mass-produced** and handily available during TNG-era. It is less reasonable presumption than to assume the Feds projectile weapons you've mentioned are not yet in mass production stage and distributed fairly to the Feds ground troops.

You simply ignore **other** possibilities like:
- probably the Federation doesn't have yet the opportunity to use the weapon in the battlefield against the Bord

No opportunity? The replicators were not down when the Borg boarded the E-E. The replicators were not down when Voyager had Borg troubles.

See? Your "conjecture" ***requires*** that Voyager's replicator must be able to replicate that projectile weapons, without proving that it can. Oh, no. Now you're going to argue that everything the Feds had in design must be available in Voyager's replicator databank. Pathetic.

- probably the projectile weapon is ineffective in the battlefield due to its reliance to transporter

I'm talking about the original, not the modification.

Conceded. Yet it still doesn't proof that projectile weapons will be ineffective on the Borg.

4. But the ***worst*** of all, you claim that Borg drone forcefield (IF EXIST anywhere else outside your delusion) will protect them from projectiles, but NOT from Bat'leth and claws, thus **simply ignoring the fact** that projectiles and claws are both KE attacks and most projectiles like arrows and bullets carries much more KE and *ENERGY INTENSITY* than most hand-to-hand weapons.

It would be illogical for a KE shield to prevent all KE when you want to interact with the environment at the same time. A selective KE shield would make more sense.

Your conclusion is based on the **need** of selective KE shield to interact with the environment, not on the case (if exist) that projectiles bounce off Borg drone forcefield (if exist). Show a single episode when Borg drones have selective KE shield. Show a single episode when projectiles cannot penetrate drone's forcefield while claws and bat'leth can.

See? That's why you're being flamed, idiot.

I'm being flamed because I disagree . . . I am outside the Warsie support group, and stand against the closely guarded beliefs, therefore I am the enemy.

[/quote]

No, Fuckstar. You're being flamed simply because of your moronic arguments. Consider this:

Possibilities about Picard's Tommy Gun bullets:
1. The bullets are replicated
2. The bullets are just holograms and thus not real projectiles
You conveniently choose number 2 and ignoring onscreen facts like Picard walked out of the holodeck with a lipstick print on his cheek, or Wesley dripped water on the carpet outside the holodeck after falling in a river in the holodeck, or Wesley threw a snowball from the holodeck and hit Picard (sorry Wayne I borrow your quote).

Thus, your *selected possibility* lead you to the premise that no projectile weapon has been fired at the Borg. Even IF (and that's a big IF) that's true, that NO projectile weapon has been fired at the Borg (while it is more reasonable to assume that there are not *many* projectile weapons fired at the Borg), they can be many explanations like:
1. Projectile weapons like asault rifles and GMPGs are simply no longer produced and distributed in TNG-era.
2. Federation-built projectile weapon that you pointed out in the URL is not yet in mass-production stage and not yet distributed.
3. Borg drones have KE-repelling force fields so projectiles is useless against them
(Note that there can be many other possibilities besides those I point out.)
You, of course, conveniently choose number 3.

Finally, to explain why hand-to-hand weapons work against the Borg while projectiles (which has more KE and intensity) won't, you argue that the drones have selective KE shield.

Oooohhh.. but waidda minute; do you prove the existence of Borg selective KE shield based on onscreen evidence? Do you point to an occassion where bullets bounce-off while swords and claws don't? OF COURSE NO. You "prove it" by saying that the drones ****need**** selective KE shield because they need to interact with their enviromnet.

Of course, I haven't yet describe your OTHER siliness and stupidity like pointing to a URL to PROVE that the Fed projectile weapon is ineffective against the Borg, while the web page CLEARLY STATES otherwise.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

Which one has more *mass*, a bullet or a forcefield?

I wouldn't expect a forcefield to have any mass at all.

So a bullet carries much more KE than a forcefield. If forcefield can swiss-cheese the Borg, why bullet can't?

Hmmm.. you are going to resort to the "selective KE shielding" argument again, ain't ya? Using "proof" that drones ***need*** selective KE shielding to enable them to interact with the environemnt. LOL!

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

That actually what I was thinking about when I said you may be right but I saw the counter argument that Picard was simply calling it a holographic bullet to explain it to the Yokel without it getting to complicated, coming so I just said that line of reasoning was void for both sides.

I would expect that to produce more questions in Lily's mind. After all, a hologram is, for all intents and purposes, just a trick of light . . . smoke and mirrors, if you will.

Surely you haven't read Wayne's post, have you moron?

[DarkStar]

Okay, that's all well and good, but why would it be possible to deactivate them?

For situations such as Data's, for instance. However, the idea that Deactivation of safeties = matter replication of holographic items makes no sense whatsoever.

[Master of Ossus]

Okay, that's all well and good, but why would it be possible to deactivate them?

For situations such as Data's, for instance. However, the idea that Deactivation of safeties = matter replication of holographic items makes no sense whatsoever.

Why not just put a small weapons locker next to the holodeck? In any case, why doesn't the idea of matter replication make sense? It appears to make perfect sense. We know that the holodeck does replicate matter. We know that it somehow prevents people from getting hurt when the safeties are on. We also know that when the safeties are off it is very easy to be injured by weapons and other things on the holodeck. Seriously, why doesn't that theory make any sense, to you?

Incidentally, DarkStar, in spite of my generous offer in "Ripping Apart DarkStar's Cowardly Attempt to Avoid Criticism," I have yet to receive a single PM telling me that any third party disagreed with me on that thread. It appears as if every single person there disagreed with you. That is troubling, as you seemed to think your case was so airtight. I would say there was something wrong with my messaging service, but I have received completely unrelated PMs from some people since then. Maybe They all forgot to PM me about that. Have you gotten any messages with regards to the little chat that we had on that thread? Or is everyone just too lazy to message us with reasons why you were right?

[DarkStar]

So what? It's an inanimate object that the participants are expected to interact with a lot. Bullets flying through the air do not qualify, hopefully.

Except when the safeties are off. That's why there ARE, safeties.

Does not follow. You are simply assuming that "Safeties Off" = "Everything Inanimate Becomes Matter", but there is no evidence for this view.

2. If it can be proved that it was,

It was. The ensign was bleeding. If it were a holographic bullet, why would there be blood from what is essentially an energy weapon?

Oh. my. god.

Has it not occurred to you that a holographic bullet, though energy, behaves toward matter as if the hologram were a solid? Have you not seen the HoloDoc interact with his environment without leaving everything smouldering?

No, it would indicate that when the safeties are off, the danger of being wounded in a given scenario is an actual concern.

Thank you, Captain Obvious.

It is when one factors in that Hirogen didn't HAVE any holotech, and simply switched the safeties off, instead of suddenly becoming holo-wizards.

When Picard turned the safeties off, the bullets remained holographic. If the HoloDoc had to remove the bullets from his patients (which I seem to recall, but I'm not sure), then there was obviously a change from normal Holodeck practice. The most logical change in that situation would be a Hirogen order for real bullets.