The Delta Quadrant War

[Ted C]

Let's try another historical substitution.

Around Stardate 50984.3, the USS Voyager became involved in hostilities between the Borg Collective and an aliens race that the Borg called "Species 8472".

Borg Assets: Hundreds or thousands of planets, thousands of Borg cubes and smaller starships, millions or billions of Borg drones, and the Borg infrastructure of transwarp conduits, factories, etc. The Borg can open "inter-universal rifts" to reach the home territory of S8472 (they originally started the war by invading S8472 territory this way); the limitations of this capability are unknown.

S8472 Assets: An unspecified number of biological warships (we seldom saw more than a few at a time), including at least one "planet buster". They can access Borg territory via "inter-universal rifts"; exact limits are not known, but they apparently have greater "inter-dimensional" mobility than the Borg.

History: The Borg were getting their assess kicked until the crew of Voyager discovered a way to threaten S8472 using modified Borg nanoprobles.

The Substitution: How would the Empire fare in the Borg's position? How would the Empire fare in S8472's position?

[JodoForce]

uh, why did Janeway help the Borg? Was she retarded?

[Ted C]

uh, why did Janeway help the Borg? Was she retarded?

Janeway cut a deal for safe passage through Borg territory in return for the means to defeat S8472.

[JodoForce]

As the Borg: since the whole Borg population / military was involved in the war, assume the whole GE fleet and industrial capacity is involved?

Going from producing one Death Star in secret in 3 months, they start building one Death Star in public every month until they can counter the planet-busters.

In the meantime the regular fleet takes heavy losses but also inflicts heavy losses on Species 8472, since their defensive capabilities can't be anything special.

At the presented by 8472 against the Borg, the Imperials win hands down. Dunno if they start pouring 10 times the amount of ships...

Probably a war heavy on attack and thin on defence, since neither side can effectively defend against a force that can jump to any position in their territory at will. (:?:) However the Imperials may fare marginally better in this regard with their hyperdrives.

This is all assuming the Imperials somehow get hold of the trans-dimensional technology, right?

[JodoForce]

Since I never saw Voyager I wouldn't be surprised if I'm off by a mile

[DeadM]

Since I never saw Voyager I wouldn't be surprised if I'm off by a mile

You lucky bastard

[Stormbringer]

A single ISD gives Species 90210 an unholy bitchslapping and 90210 run off crying never to be seen again.

[seanrobertson]

Let's try another historical substitution.

Around Stardate 50984.3, the USS Voyager became involved in hostilities between the Borg Collective and an aliens race that the Borg called "Species 8472".

Borg Assets: Hundreds or thousands of planets, thousands of Borg cubes and smaller starships, millions or billions of Borg drones, and the Borg infrastructure of transwarp conduits, factories, etc. The Borg can open "inter-universal rifts" to reach the home territory of S8472 (they originally started the war by invading S8472 territory this way); the limitations of this capability are unknown.

If you will allow me, my friend, a slight addendum: the Collective consists of "thousands of systems" ("Scorpion"), something that is loosely corroborated by the size of other large powers; e.g., the Krenim Imperium at its height, which consisted of some 900+ systems and "thousands of ships." So thousands plural is probably on the money.

Also, the total Borg population is in the trillions. Seven and others often mention, "Billions of minds speak as one," but the one instance in which we get a direct sensor scan of a "Borg homeworld" of sorts, the Unicomplex, we hear of "trillions of life signs--all Borg."

S8472 Assets: An unspecified number of biological warships (we seldom saw more than a few at a time), including at least one "planet buster". They can access Borg territory via "inter-universal rifts"; exact limits are not known, but they apparently have greater "inter-dimensional" mobility than the Borg.

It would seem so. The most bioships we ever see in one place was around 100 (the scene in which VGR finally learns why the "Northwest Passage" was devoid of Borg prescence).

History: The Borg were getting their assess kicked until the crew of Voyager discovered a way to threaten S8472 using modified Borg nanoprobles.

The Substitution: How would the Empire fare in the Borg's position? How would the Empire fare in S8472's position?

In both cases, the Empire slays the opposition.

As the Borg, the Empire really only needs to destroy a couple dozen bioships at most to let 8472 know they're for real. The Eights had fought the Borg for six months and "swiftly defeated" the Collective in every conflict; then, out of nowhere, VGR whips a few bioship's asses. This was enough for them to call a general retreat...kind of an overreaction, even if they did believe that the Borg were going to deploy nanoprobe-based weapons across the entire theatre of war shortly thereafter.

Besides, I don't know that a bioship could threaten any Imperial ship bigger than a fighter. They might be able to kill patrol ships the size of Slave One with a shot or two, but I find that even rather doubtful...I myself tend to rate a bioship's firepower at no more than 100 megatons/sec. if that. Without combining into their planet-killer formation--which as Mike has argued, still involves some kind of chain-reaction to blow apart a whole planet--they shouldn't be able to kill standard Imperial warships.

If the Eights manage to not run away immediately, I could see them lasting long enough to take out some Imperial warships with their 9 bioship/PK attacks with the element of surprise (which, incidentally, those "singularities" can afford). How many, I have no idea. Not enough to deter Palpatine, that's for sure.

As the Eights, all the Empire really needs to do is send the Death Star to the Delta Quadrant. Even the Collective's biggest weapon of mass destruction--the "5 million isoton multi-kinetic neutronic mine"--is probably not even a true threat to run-of-the-mill destroyers, let alone the DS...the entire Borg starfleet could attack the DS and not scratch it. It would take the DS quite awhile to destroy a large no. of Borg planets, but time isn't something it lacks When necessary, the DS could simply go refuel, then come back and restart the process.

I'd rather fight the Borg as an Imperial--I don't think one ISD could simply attack the Eights with impugnity since their PKing ability could be a very real threat--but either way it's a thorough routing IMO. The Borg would be too slow and not powerful enough to stop you, and the Eights would probably give up long before you took serious casualties.

[consequences]

I only have one question; What the bleep is a "5 million isoton multi-kinetic neutronic mine" anyway, and on what was it used?

[seanrobertson]

I only have one question; What the bleep is a "5 million isoton multi-kinetic neutronic mine" anyway, and on what was it used?

You are at Ft. Bragg? Cool. You also are not that far away from me.

That big mine wasn't used. Remember the Borg ship in "Descent," a big, irregular thing?

Its schematic was shown in "Scorpion" when Janeway proposed that the Borg use VGR's photon torpedoes to deliver modified nanoprobes to 8472 targets. Seven said that those torpedoes, yielding "200 isotons," "lacked the dispersive force" or some other such junk.

That's when she pulled up the schematic's of the Lore's Borg ship. Janeway said, "That's a weapon of mass destruction..." Seven nodded and said that it could somehow project nanoprobes FTL across a 5 ly radius (or diameter...I can't remember) area!

You would think that it would therefore have no explosive component, but I dunno...I think it probably does, just as photorps do; just, for whatever reason, their "explosive yield" does not destroy the nanoprobes.

But it's important to note the Borg never used this weapon to our knowledge. We know one existed previously, though not necessarily as an armed bomb--my guess is that the Borg just convert a cube into this weapon--but that's about it.

[Wicked Pilot]

Um, let's see. One strike cruiser lays the smack down on half a dozen 8472 ships. Species 8472 retreat into fluidic space never to be seen again.




Casualties analysis:
Species 8472: Six destroyed vessels with all hands on board lost.
Galatic Empire: Junior officer on the Strike Cruiser spills hot java on himself after yelling "Holy Shit! What a bunch of bioteched pussies!"

[Admiral Johnason]

Borg: We are the....

Thrawn: Open fire you stupid bastards and see what will happen.

Borg open fire

Thrawn: How perdictable. Open fire all ships.

Entire unimatrix is destroyed by one SSD and 50 SDs. Entire Borg race gone in two weeks

Thrawn: That doesn't even count as target practice!

[consequences]

Sure it does, you just have to try to miss them as often as possible, or to hit them without instantly killing them.

[Alyeska]

Big question here. Did the Empire invade Fluidic space? Are they going to continue invading Fluidic space? S8472 isn't going to run when they are fighting for their lives near their homes.

[Admiral Johnason]

Big question here. Did the Empire invade Fluidic space? Are they going to continue invading Fluidic space? S8472 isn't going to run when they are fighting for their lives near their homes.

Yes, Yes, and Yes.

[Darksider]

Big question here. Did the Empire invade Fluidic space? Are they going to continue invading Fluidic space? S8472 isn't going to run when they are fighting for their lives near their homes.

Wouldn't matter, Imperials have too much firepower and too many ships

[Ender]

Big question here. Did the Empire invade Fluidic space? Are they going to continue invading Fluidic space? S8472 isn't going to run when they are fighting for their lives near their homes.

Wouldn't matter, Imperials have too much firepower and too many ships

Too many ships is unprovable, we don't know what the 8's had available. Firepower is indeterminate, since the borg shields weren't doing anything we can't gage from that, since the 8's use a chain reaction to kill planets we can't gage from that outside of the fact they do alot of melting before it blows up. And can we please cut this "2 die they run like pussies!" crap out?

[Darth Garden Gnome]

If you ask me, those S8472 PKers probably had an ion-cannon like effect on the Borg planet, causing its "transwarp cores" or whatever to breach, busting the whole thing up from the inside.

But whatever it was, I doubt it would be effective on Imperial warships except in large numbers. And that's if the PKer isn't one of a kind, either.

That said; the Imperial Fleet deploys - hundreds of thousands of ships strong - and forces the S8472 back into the void with minimal casualties.

If they pursue S8472 on their home turf, things could get ugly for the Empire, depending on numbers, but suffice to say, S8472 are thoroughly screwed.

[Howedar]

Firepower is indeterminate, since the borg shields weren't doing anything we can't gage from that, since the 8's use a chain reaction to kill planets we can't gage from that outside of the fact they do alot of melting before it blows up.

We saw a 8472 beam give Voyager a love-tap. The 8472 weapon cannot be more than a few orders of magnitude more powerful than Federation weapons.

[Ender]

Firepower is indeterminate, since the borg shields weren't doing anything we can't gage from that, since the 8's use a chain reaction to kill planets we can't gage from that outside of the fact they do alot of melting before it blows up.

We saw a 8472 beam give Voyager a love-tap. The 8472 weapon cannot be more than a few orders of magnitude more powerful than Federation weapons.

Show that the weapon was on full power, especially since a single ship ripped apart 15 cubes when it takes a fleet of Federation ships to handle one.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

Show that the weapon was on full power, especially since a single ship ripped apart 15 cubes when it takes a fleet of Federation ships to handle one.

Why wouldn't it be on full-power is a better question. Maybe S8472's ships have some sort of advantage over the Borg that they don't have on the Feds. Otherwise, these beams that were tearing down Borg Cubes should've fry Voyager in one shot.

[Rye]

What about covert ops a la those stupid colonies in space they had of sf headquarters?

Could they infiltrate the empire? Could their telepathy have an effect similar to the jedi mind trick on stormtroopers?

[Howedar]

Show that the weapon was on full power, especially since a single ship ripped apart 15 cubes when it takes a fleet of Federation ships to handle one.

My recollection is that Voyager got in the way of a beam that was firing on a cube. Thus, it really ought to have been at full power.

[Kamakazie Sith]

uh, why did Janeway help the Borg? Was she retarded?

It was really a choice between two evils. The borg would have simply been replaced by something worse, and to top it off this race is bent on complete destruction of all life in that universe.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

IIRC it tooks the 8s 2 shots to kill cubes.