Finally adding to my canon database

[Master of Ossus]

WTF, DarkStar. We showed you an example where the holodeck used real bullets, and then you refused to accept it because someone else was in control of the holodeck? Why the hell would they have changed the fundamental ways in which the holodeck operates, when they could have just turned off the safeties?

[DarkStar]

Ahhh, Dumbshit, I was hoping you'd pull out that stupid Graviton nonsense. It's funny for someone like me, who understands what a 'graviton shield' would do and react like, to read a stupid little Trekkie like you state a GCS's is one.

It's canon fact that it is one, and it is canon fact that the spatial distortion does not affect things (light, for instance) in the way you hope for. No skin off my back.

[SirNitram]

Ahhh, Dumbshit, I was hoping you'd pull out that stupid Graviton nonsense. It's funny for someone like me, who understands what a 'graviton shield' would do and react like, to read a stupid little Trekkie like you state a GCS's is one.

It's canon fact that it is one, and it is canon fact that the spatial distortion does not affect things (light, for instance) in the way you hope for. No skin off my back.

It's not 'The Way I Hope For', it's how gravity works. That you're too stupid to recignize this isn't my concern, kiddo.

As for these endless claims, I'm still waiting to actually see it.. Surely, with all the screencaps of other events in Generations, one person would have one of this alleged readout.

Of course, you are just a mindless Trekkie, so we can't expect you to understand and/or debate by things like reason...

And, since you did not have any rebuttal for my point on CoM, Concession Accepted on the Borg being unable to shield themselves.

[Lord Poe]

Except when the safeties are off. That's why there ARE, safeties.

Does not follow. You are simply assuming that "Safeties Off" = "Everything Inanimate Becomes Matter", but there is no evidence for this view.

Yes there is. Everytime someone gets injured, the instrument of violence is transformed from a image to a solid object. Backed up by "Elementary Dear Data", ST:FC, "The Killing Game", and that one where Torres turns off the safeties.

It was. The ensign was bleeding. If it were a holographic bullet, why would there be blood from what is essentially an energy weapon?/quote]

Oh. my. god.

Fictional deities won't help you, even WITH the safeties off.

Has it not occurred to you that a holographic bullet, though energy, behaves toward matter as if the hologram were a solid?

Then you've just proven your entire argument baseless. If the holobullets are not replicated matter, then they are the closest possible thing to it, having the characteristics, the damage potential, and the effect as if they WERE. Which means, we know exactly what happens to Borg drones when projectile weapons are fired at them. They DIE. Otherwise, with your theory, the holobullets would have simply bounced off those fictional KE shields of yours. Thanks for playing.

[Coyote]

Other moments of holographic interest--

In one of Picard's holodeck fantasies, he drags in Dr. Crusher, Data, and a couple of others, including a hapless ensign redshirt (yeah, hangin' with the command staff, like I always got to hobnob with Colonels and Chief Warrants... whatever) but while they were playing the Dixon Hill game, something evil happened and the safety got deactivated. A holodeck character fired a revolver and the ensign was killed. At first the others thought it was an elaborate death scene staged by the ensign and Crusher applauded the 'performance'. But when the ensign didn't get up, she checked him, realized he was dead, and pronounced him so. Picard-- being the Dixon Hill that he is-- deduced that the safeties had malfunctioned.

And the point is well taken about the Enterprise crewman that Picard killed with the Thompson. He would have known it was a hologram. I don't have the movie with me, or any other taped episodes (I mostly collected the Borg episodes) but when the safety protocols were switched off, they always had to go through a ritual-- "Computer, disengage safety protocols, authority Picard, (Treknobabble code delta-seven)", to which Majel Berret's recorded voice said, "Safety protocols disengaged".

Why they would do this in the ST world is strange to me, but it worked for First Contact...

And as far back as TOS-- bullet-flinging weapons were rare, not made anymore, and their properties unknown. Remember Sulu found a Police .38 on that shore leave planet where fantasies came true, and Kirk examined it and said, "Be careful, at close range these things can be as deadly as a phaser". If SF crew were familiar with these weapons types, he wouldn't need to explain it and it certainl does not need to be explained for audience benefit. We're supposed to learn from that comment that firearms are now considered museum pieces.

More examples abound, "Specter of the Gun" being one that everyone seems familiar with. But another springs to mind, where the Federation is in a secret arms race against the Klingons as both try to sneak technology to primitives emerging on soem border planet. The Feds and the Klingons were both supplying natives with flintlock muskets and when somone gets shot, McCoy has a hard time dealing with the injury because he's not familiar with the nature of KE slugs going into human tissue.

As for the holodeck rounds, I'd come down on the side that-- once those safety protocols are disengaged, those become 100% real slugs. And since such slugs don't have a 'frequency' to adjust to, they'd tear chunks outta Borg.

[DarkStar]

A "conjecture" which *requires* you to select a possibility favors it without bothering to consider other possibilities. A "conjecture" based on premise that ignores the onscreen facts about holodeck-created objects.

No, that's your conjecture . . . Warsie conjecture about Borg KE shields is based on the false notion that Picard fired real bullets, and not holographic ones.

3. To further support your claim, you show me a URL about a type of Federation projectile, and claiming that they never been used on the Borg. So the fact that Federation projectile weapon exists and never been used on the Borg automatically translates that the weapon must be ineffective against the Borg, due to Borg drone KE-repelling forcefield in your delusion.

It is a more reasonable presumption than simply assuming everyone magically forgot about bullets.

It is a **less** reasonable presumption than to assume that projectile weapons are simply no longer **mass-produced** and handily available during TNG-era. It is less reasonable presumption than to assume the Feds projectile weapons you've mentioned are not yet in mass production stage and distributed fairly to the Feds ground troops.

It's a ***replicator pattern***. That means that a starship could make them at will. They might not be able to arm a planet, or might not even be able to arm the entire crew, but that isn't relevant . . . they have a big freakin' gun available at a moment's notice.

You simply ignore **other** possibilities like:
- probably the Federation doesn't have yet the opportunity to use the weapon in the battlefield against the Bord

No opportunity? The replicators were not down when the Borg boarded the E-E. The replicators were not down when Voyager had Borg troubles.

See? Your "conjecture" ***requires*** that Voyager's replicator must be able to replicate that projectile weapons, without proving that it can. Oh, no. Now you're going to argue that everything the Feds had in design must be available in Voyager's replicator databank. Pathetic.

In the midst of all your silliness, and your ignorance of the E-E point, you have a potentially valid point about Voyager . . . I'm not sure how old the replicator pattern would be, though some online sources say that it was "some years" before the episode. However, it was a readily available pattern, given that a few were made on DS9 . . . there's no reason to assume that if it was created prior to Voyager's departure, they wouldn't have it in the computer.

But, about the time issue:

2375: "Field of Fire"
2373: First Contact
2371: Voyager departs the AQ

Assuming that "some years" implies at least two, the pattern should have been available during First Contact. If "some years" means four or more, Voyager would have had it available.

Your conclusion is based on the **need** of selective KE shield to interact with the environment, not on the case (if exist) that projectiles bounce off Borg drone forcefield (if exist). Show a single episode when Borg drones have selective KE shield. Show a single episode when projectiles cannot penetrate drone's forcefield while claws and bat'leth can.

I have never gone to the top of some mountain and proclaimed to all mankind that the Borg have KE shields . . . you miss the point. I am simply saying that we have never ever seen real projectiles fired at Borg drones, so we don't know what will happen.

However, my inference that there are KE shields does make more sense than the Warsie conclusion that there aren't any.

You're being flamed simply because of your moronic arguments.

Where "moronic" = "disagrees with Warsie opinions"

Consider this:

Possibilities about Picard's Tommy Gun bullets:
1. The bullets are replicated
2. The bullets are just holograms and thus not real projectiles

Since #2 represents Picard's statement on the matter, the issue is settled.

1. Projectile weapons like asault rifles and GMPGs are simply no longer produced and distributed in TNG-era.

True, though the replicator pattern is available to officers, so long as they don't mind a call from SF Intel.

2. Federation-built projectile weapon that you pointed out in the URL is not yet in mass-production stage and not yet distributed.

Ensign Bertrand, a gun collector, replicated one when he heard about it. Sure, it set off someone's alarm and so he had it taken away, but this idea that it has to be mass-produced and distributed is false. The only distribution is the computer code for the replicator.

3. Borg drones have KE-repelling force fields so projectiles is useless against them
(Note that there can be many other possibilities besides those I point out.)
You, of course, conveniently choose number 3.

It is the inference which is most reasonable under the circumstances. I'm not surprised that you attack it.

Of course, I haven't yet describe your OTHER siliness and stupidity like pointing to a URL to PROVE that the Fed projectile weapon is ineffective against the Borg, while the web page CLEARLY STATES otherwise.

The web page is not canon, retard.

[DarkStar]

It's not 'The Way I Hope For', it's how gravity works.

Irrelevant. This is Trek canon. If you wish to debate the topic, you must accept what is seen and described in the canon of either universe. Your theories do not override canon fact.

As for these endless claims, I'm still waiting to actually see it.. Surely, with all the screencaps of other events in Generations, one person would have one of this alleged readout.

It's been on my page for weeks, retard. http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/generazioni0369.jpg

And, since you did not have any rebuttal for my point on CoM, Concession Accepted on the Borg being unable to shield themselves.

None offerred. Your point is invalid, as demonstrated.

[DarkStar]

Does not follow. You are simply assuming that "Safeties Off" = "Everything Inanimate Becomes Matter", but there is no evidence for this view.

Yes there is. Everytime someone gets injured, the instrument of violence is transformed from a image to a solid object. Backed up by "Elementary Dear Data", ST:FC, "The Killing Game", and that one where Torres turns off the safeties.

It is not backed up by those examples at all. First, "Elementary, Dear Data" does not feature someone being injured, as far as I know. First Contact does not feature anyone but the Borg being injured, and that was by canonically-stated "holographic bullets". "The Killing Game" features injuries, but that example hardly reflects standard holodeck doctrine. Lastly, figure out which episode you're talking about in reference to Torres, and then we'll talk.

It was. The ensign was bleeding. If it were a holographic bullet, why would there be blood from what is essentially an energy weapon?/quote]

Oh. my. god.

Fictional deities won't help you, even WITH the safeties off.

I do not need anyone's help to continue to demonstrate the huge, gaping errors in your arguments, Wayne.

Has it not occurred to you that a holographic bullet, though energy, behaves toward matter as if the hologram were a solid?

Then you've just proven your entire argument baseless. If the holobullets are not replicated matter, then they are the closest possible thing to it, having the characteristics, the damage potential, and the effect as if they WERE.

A projection of light and forcefields can pretend to be a bullet all day, just like the HoloDoc acts like a human being. However, that does not make them solid objects, and it does not imply that solid objects would behave the same way in the same circumstance.

Give it up, Wayne. Your arguments are retarded, and your position is hopeless.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

One just need to read this FuckStar's posting to enjoy the gallery of idiotism.....

the SW side has a theory which accurately predicts the incident. The ST side has various methods with which they try to dismiss the incident as irrelevant.

One side can explain the evidence, the other side looks for reasons to dismiss it. 'Nuff said.

No . . . the pro-Wars side has an anti-Trek supposition which, they feel, explains the evidence. I have crafted a counterargument which, though contrary to the anti-Trek one and therefore rejected by some, also explains the evidence, and serves to explain more of it.

Counter argument created by selecting which possibility suits your Trek fanaticism and based on bullshit premise. In other words: COUNTER ARGUMENT MY ASS.

1. We have never seen projectile weapons used against the Borg.

Based on your ignorance on what's seen onscreen about holodeck-created objects. Maybe you just missed those episodes, or maybe you wathed using your ass instead your eyes.

2. Starfleet has access to modern-design projectile weapons, and can evidently recreate old ones. ("Field of Fire"[DS9], "A Private Little War"[TOS], "The Big Goodbye"[TNG], ST:FC, etc.)

Of course, in your twisted delusion, the fact that they can recreate old projectile weapons means that they also mass-producing it and distributing it to their "ground forces".

3. Phasers are particle weapons (Picard in First Contact, Malcolm in "Broken Bow"[ENT], Tuvok in "Endgame"[VOY], et cetera)
4. Borg drone shields stop phasers. (ref.: Every Borg ep)

ROTFLMAO!!!! I'll DIE LAUGHING because of these points alone. Do phasers work like ***PROJECTILES***?????? Have you ever seen phasers PUNCHED HOLES at their target????????? For Chrissake, Gene Roddenberry will raise from his grave if he hear this.

5. Borg drone shields do not stop physical attacks, such as hands or knives.

Ah, the most honest statement I've ever heard in this discussion.

6. The Borg drones are capable of interacting with their environment.

SURE THEY CAN. What makes you think they could assimilate Picard if they can't interact with their environment? LOL!!!

So, which is the better synthesis of this data? That the Borg lack all forms of KE shielding, or that they are selective about it?

Well, let me contemplate this: If I'm using the same weak premise and ignoring all other possibilities that don't suit my taste, as well as ignoring onscreen evidence and inventing "proof" based on what should be according to my delusion, I'll *surely* say that Borg drones have selective KE shielding.

Fortunately, I'm not THAT imbecile.

[DarkStar]

Um, forgive me, but there are several corrections I must make:

A holodeck character fired a revolver and the ensign was killed.

He shot Whalen, the ship's historian. He was not killed.

The Feds and the Klingons were both supplying natives with flintlock muskets and when somone gets shot, McCoy has a hard time dealing with the injury because he's not familiar with the nature of KE slugs going into human tissue.

There is no indication in the episode that Spock's injury is troublesome as a result of it being made by a bullet. Dr. M'Benga states that there is no replacement available for the damaged organ, and McCoy states that if it weren't for the fact that Spock's heart isn't in the same place, he'd be dead. Again, no evidence that a bullet is the issue.

As for the holodeck rounds, I'd come down on the side that-- once those safety protocols are disengaged, those become 100% real slugs.

No evidence for this view is present in the canon.

[DarkStar]

1. We have never seen projectile weapons used against the Borg.

Based on your ignorance on what's seen onscreen about holodeck-created objects. Maybe you just missed those episodes, or maybe you wathed using your ass instead your eyes.

What? You're saying that projectile weapons have been used against the Borg in multiple episodes? Well, well, well . . . I'm hope you have something to back that BS up with. Of course, that would be a change for you.

2. Starfleet has access to modern-design projectile weapons, and can evidently recreate old ones. ("Field of Fire"[DS9], "A Private Little War"[TOS], "The Big Goodbye"[TNG], ST:FC, etc.)

Of course, in your twisted delusion, the fact that they can recreate old projectile weapons means that they also mass-producing it and distributing it to their "ground forces".

No, but they can replicate the "modern design" projectile weapons which you ignored in the post at will.

3. Phasers are particle weapons (Picard in First Contact, Malcolm in "Broken Bow"[ENT], Tuvok in "Endgame"[VOY], et cetera)
4. Borg drone shields stop phasers. (ref.: Every Borg ep)

ROTFLMAO!!!! I'll DIE LAUGHING because of these points alone. Do phasers work like ***PROJECTILES***?????? Have you ever seen phasers PUNCHED HOLES at their target????????? For Chrissake, Gene Roddenberry will raise from his grave if he hear this.

Particles have KE, do they not? Therefore, a particle weapon operates on KE, does it not? Borg drone shields can repulse phaser beams, can they not? Therefore, the Borg have shielding capable of repelling KE, do they not?

Idiot.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

A "conjecture" which *requires* you to select a possibility favors it without bothering to consider other possibilities. A "conjecture" based on premise that ignores the onscreen facts about holodeck-created objects.

No, that's your conjecture . . . Warsie conjecture about Borg KE shields is based on the false notion that Picard fired real bullets, and not holographic ones.

And you claimed it "false notion" by completely ignoring what's seen ONSCREEN about holodeck-created objects and completely ignoring the possibility that Picard was just using simplified term instead of "holodeck-replicated projectiles commonly used in 20th century rapid-firing medium-sized firearm" or other technobabbles.

It is a more reasonable presumption than simply assuming everyone magically forgot about bullets.

It is a **less** reasonable presumption than to assume that projectile weapons are simply no longer **mass-produced** and handily available during TNG-era. It is less reasonable presumption than to assume the Feds projectile weapons you've mentioned are not yet in mass production stage and distributed fairly to the Feds ground troops.

It's a ***replicator pattern***. That means that a starship could make them at will. They might not be able to arm a planet, or might not even be able to arm the entire crew, but that isn't relevant . . . they have a big freakin' gun available at a moment's notice.

No opportunity? The replicators were not down when the Borg boarded the E-E. The replicators were not down when Voyager had Borg troubles.

See? Your "conjecture" ***requires*** that Voyager's replicator must be able to replicate that projectile weapons, without proving that it can. Oh, no. Now you're going to argue that everything the Feds had in design must be available in Voyager's replicator databank. Pathetic.

In the midst of all your silliness, and your ignorance of the E-E point, you have a potentially valid point about Voyager . . . I'm not sure how old the replicator pattern would be, though some online sources say that it was "some years" before the episode. However, it was a readily available pattern, given that a few were made on DS9 . . . there's no reason to assume that if it was created prior to Voyager's departure, they wouldn't have it in the computer.

But, about the time issue:

2375: "Field of Fire"
2373: First Contact
2371: Voyager departs the AQ

Assuming that "some years" implies at least two, the pattern should have been available during First Contact. If "some years" means four or more, Voyager would have had it available.

First, what I mean by "mass-produced" doesn't necessarily means manufactured in 20th century-style factories.

Second, replicator pattern is not THE SINGLE FACTOR in considering the mass-production and distribution of Feds projectile weapons. You also need MATERIALS, you also need POWER, you also need LOGISTICS for the materials, and you also need POLICY and PLAN to manage the production and distribution. Also, you also need to ENSURE that the new product has been properly tested and meet the standard required. And don't forget, the prototype has to pass OPERATIONAL TESTING before mass-produced.

Strangely enough, in your opinion it only means that projectile weapons is innefective against the drones.

Your conclusion is based on the **need** of selective KE shield to interact with the environment, not on the case (if exist) that projectiles bounce off Borg drone forcefield (if exist). Show a single episode when Borg drones have selective KE shield. Show a single episode when projectiles cannot penetrate drone's forcefield while claws and bat'leth can.

I have never gone to the top of some mountain and proclaimed to all mankind that the Borg have KE shields . . . you miss the point. I am simply saying that we have never ever seen real projectiles fired at Borg drones, so we don't know what will happen.

However, my inference that there are KE shields does make more sense than the Warsie conclusion that there aren't any.

Instead of simply claiming that it is possible for Borg drones to have selective KE shielding, you claimed that the inference DOES MAKE MORE SENSE than the inference that the drones doesn't have KE shielding, without providing even a single proof WHY it should make more sense.

You're being flamed simply because of your moronic arguments.

Where "moronic" = "disagrees with Warsie opinions"

No, moronic means using weak premise and ignoring all other possibilities, ignoring onscreen evidence, inventing "proof" based on what should be according to your own delusion, and finally using them as base to say that it is MORE reasonable to inference that Borg have selective KE shielding instead of saying that they don't have KE shielding.

Consider this:

Possibilities about Picard's Tommy Gun bullets:
1. The bullets are replicated
2. The bullets are just holograms and thus not real projectiles

Since #2 represents Picard's statement on the matter, the issue is settled.

Since #2 contradicts everything we see ONSCREEN about holodeck-created objects, and simply ignoring the possibility that Picard was using simplified term instead of lenghty technobabble, then your premise is fucked.

1. Projectile weapons like asault rifles and GMPGs are simply no longer produced and distributed in TNG-era.

True, though the replicator pattern is available to officers, so long as they don't mind a call from SF Intel.

LOL!!!! The replicator pattern is available. Big deal. Now let's throw away the material, the resources, the logistic, and the policy needed to mass-distribute them.

My co-worker has the FULL Linux source code on his hard drive. Does he claim, "hey, now I'll be able to found a Linux distribution company rivalling Red Hat"? Of course he doesn't.

2. Federation-built projectile weapon that you pointed out in the URL is not yet in mass-production stage and not yet distributed.

Ensign Bertrand, a gun collector, replicated one when he heard about it. Sure, it set off someone's alarm and so he had it taken away, but this idea that it has to be mass-produced and distributed is false. The only distribution is the computer code for the replicator.

Ah, in your delusion, the capability to replicate ONE weapon automatically translate to replicate THOUSANDS needed by the Feds ground troops.



Look, your argument is just so sily and based on sily premises. GIVE IT UP!

[His Divine Shadow]

*snip*

It's a damn shame your posts are drowned out and missed in the midst of combating DarkStars stupidity, you had some real good points there.

[DarkStar]

No, that's your conjecture . . . Warsie conjecture about Borg KE shields is based on the false notion that Picard fired real bullets, and not holographic ones.

And you claimed it "false notion" by completely ignoring what's seen ONSCREEN about holodeck-created objects and completely ignoring the possibility that Picard was just using simplified term instead of "holodeck-replicated projectiles commonly used in 20th century rapid-firing medium-sized firearm" or other technobabbles.

We must argue based on canon facts, dipshit, not the possibilities which you hope to pull from your hellish, gaping rectum.

Picard says "holographic bullets". Therefore, the bullets are holographic. End of discussion.

Second, replicator pattern is not THE SINGLE FACTOR in considering the mass-production and distribution of Feds projectile weapons. You also need MATERIALS, you also need POWER, you also need

. . . blah, blah, blah, red herrings, red herrings. Your statements about needing materials, power, and so on are more or less accurate, but utterly irrelevant to the discussion. There is no need for there to be mass production of the weapon over the entire Starfleet for the weapon to have been available for use during First Contact.

However, my inference that there are KE shields does make more sense than the Warsie conclusion that there aren't any.

Instead of simply claiming that it is possible for Borg drones to have selective KE shielding, you claimed that the inference DOES MAKE MORE SENSE than the inference that the drones doesn't have KE shielding, without providing even a single proof WHY it should make more sense.

The chain of reasoning has been provided.

Where "moronic" = "disagrees with Warsie opinions"

No, moronic means using weak premise

As far as conjectures go, I'd say my premises are pretty good.

and ignoring all other possibilities,

The possibilities of the universe are infinite. Only a few are likely. This is why I have rejected . . . not ignored . . . several possibilities you would prefer.

ignoring onscreen evidence,

No onscreen evidence has been ignored.

inventing "proof" based on what should be according to your own delusion,

I have invented no evidence. My argument is based on canon fact.

and finally using them as base to say that it is MORE reasonable to inference that Borg have selective KE shielding instead of saying that they don't have KE shielding.

Because it is the more reasonable position to take.

Consider this:

Possibilities about Picard's Tommy Gun bullets:
1. The bullets are replicated
2. The bullets are just holograms and thus not real projectiles

Since #2 represents Picard's statement on the matter, the issue is settled.

Since #2 contradicts everything we see ONSCREEN about holodeck-created objects,

It contradicts nothing we see onscreen about holodeck objects. Those materials which shall be interacted with a great deal are replicated. Those which are not are often holograms. Picard stated that the bullets were holograms. Case closed.

and simply ignoring the possibility that Picard was using simplified term instead of lenghty technobabble, then your premise is fucked.

We are debating canon, not the possibilities you can extract from your ass.

True, though the replicator pattern is available to officers, so long as they don't mind a call from SF Intel.

LOL!!!! The replicator pattern is available. Big deal. Now let's throw away the material, the resources, the logistic, and the policy needed to mass-distribute them.

They do not need to be mass-distributed to have been used aboard the E-E during First Contact.

2. Federation-built projectile weapon that you pointed out in the URL is not yet in mass-production stage and not yet distributed.

Ensign Bertrand, a gun collector, replicated one when he heard about it. Sure, it set off someone's alarm and so he had it taken away, but this idea that it has to be mass-produced and distributed is false. The only distribution is the computer code for the replicator.

Ah, in your delusion, the capability to replicate ONE weapon automatically translate to replicate THOUSANDS needed by the Feds ground troops.

Thousands? Fed ground troops? WTF are you talking about?

[Eframepilot]

I've noticed that a majority of the Wars arguments (e.g. Poe, Kreshna) claim that removing the safety protocols makes objects on the holodeck "solid", meaning made out of real matter. This cannot be the case, as I will show.

Premises: Picard's tommygun became made out of real matter when protocols were removed. Also, Borg drones cannot adapt to bullets.

Since Picard's gun became real, he could take it off the holodeck. As he was looking for ways to take out the Borg, and as Locutus he would have knowledge of their weaknesses, he most definitely WOULD take it off the holodeck. Presumably, he could just restart the chapter, get the gun, give it to Lily, start over, and get a nice big pile of tommy guns. Then he could go totally apeshit, blow away all the Borg and live happily ever after.

Picard did not do this.

Conclusions:

Picard's gun was NOT made out of real matter and he could NOT take it off the holodeck. Thus the bullets would also NOT be "real". This cannot be true as "The Killing Game" shows that the holodeck can be programmed to allow weapons off of it.

OR

Picard knew that the Borg had been caught off guard and would adapt very rapidly to bullets (give another drone or two) once they realized they had an entirely different form of attack to counter.

OR

Picard is a TOTAL FUCKING IDIOT! He had the perfect weapon to fight the Borg and he THREW IT AWAY! The MORON! He clearly is brain-damaged (or does not possess a cerebral cortex at all) and should be mocked for his unbelievable stupidity!

Seeing as Picard is NOT a total fucking idiot (though I'm sure many of you will disagree), the only conclusion is that Picard believes that the Borg are capable of adapting to bullet attacks. And given his experiences, his opinion is worth much more than ours.


Oh, and by the way, the Borg Collective DOES mount phaser/disruptor/whatevers on their drones. Evidence: "Drone". In a flashback Seven uses her built-in green phaser ray to stun her rebellious co-Borg and force the re-establishment of a collective mind. God only knows why they don't use 'em more often.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

1. We have never seen projectile weapons used against the Borg.

Based on your ignorance on what's seen onscreen about holodeck-created objects. Maybe you just missed those episodes, or maybe you wathed using your ass instead your eyes.

What? You're saying that projectile weapons have been used against the Borg in multiple episodes? Well, well, well . . . I'm hope you have something to back that BS up with. Of course, that would be a change for you.

No, idiot. I'm not saying that projectile weapons have been used against the Borg in multiple episodes. It was YOU who saying that projectile weapons have NEVER been used against the Borg, despite ST:FC implies that it is POSSIBLE that a projectile weapon (the Tommy Gun) has been used against the Borg.

I'm saying that holodeck-created objects STILL EXISTS **outside** the holodeck and *not simply* dissapear. The most logical conclusion is that they are REPLICATED objects. After Wesley falling in a river IN the holodeck, the water was STILL DRIPPING. Dumbass.

Ah, but I see now. This is you LAST RESORT, apparently. Twisting your opponent's argument because you're already in hopeless position.

Or maybe you should defintely improve your READING COMPREHENSION.

2. Starfleet has access to modern-design projectile weapons, and can evidently recreate old ones. ("Field of Fire"[DS9], "A Private Little War"[TOS], "The Big Goodbye"[TNG], ST:FC, etc.)

Of course, in your twisted delusion, the fact that they can recreate old projectile weapons means that they also mass-producing it and distributing it to their "ground forces".

No, but they can replicate the "modern design" projectile weapons which you ignored in the post at will.

Who's ever saying that they CANNOT replicate projectile weapons, asshole? I'm talking about mass producing, about making them HANDILY AVAILABLE to Feds ground troops. Idiot.

3. Phasers are particle weapons (Picard in First Contact, Malcolm in "Broken Bow"[ENT], Tuvok in "Endgame"[VOY], et cetera)
4. Borg drone shields stop phasers. (ref.: Every Borg ep)

ROTFLMAO!!!! I'll DIE LAUGHING because of these points alone. Do phasers work like ***PROJECTILES***?????? Have you ever seen phasers PUNCHED HOLES at their target????????? For Chrissake, Gene Roddenberry will raise from his grave if he hear this.

Particles have KE, do they not? Therefore, a particle weapon operates on KE, does it not? Borg drone shields can repulse phaser beams, can they not? Therefore, the Borg have shielding capable of repelling KE, do they not?

Idiot.

LOL!!!!

Guys, this is the most idiotic statement I've ever seen. According to FuckStar, if Borg drone shields can repulse phaser beams, they must be able to block bullets, despite the fact that PHASERS and BULLETS work DIFFERENTLY.

Tell me, FuckStar, HAVE YOU EVER WATCH STAR TREK???? Watch it using YOUR EYES instead YOUR ASS. Watch the scene when you can see PHASER HIT THE TARGET.

Then watch old John Wayne movies (or any movie involves firefight). Watch the scene when someone getting shot.

Then PLEASE explain WHY bullets and phasers work the same way.

And I suggest you READ THIS before made such ridiculous claim that if Borg drones can block PHASER, they can block BULLETS:

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... Beam1.html

[His Divine Shadow]

I've noticed that a majority of the Wars arguments (e.g. Poe, Kreshna) claim that removing the safety protocols makes objects on the holodeck "solid", meaning made out of real matter. This cannot be the case, as I will show.

I doubt you can show it, it's already been proven that the holodeck already replicates such things, like it replicated snow.
With safety protocolls on, it would likely have the bullet dissipate, or not exist at all, however with them off, it's as realistic as it can be, and that includes replicating.

Premises: Picard's tommygun became made out of real matter when protocols were removed. Also, Borg drones cannot adapt to bullets.

Just like they couldn't adapt to Worfs knife nor blows and punches from the crew.

Since Picard's gun became real, he could take it off the holodeck. As he was looking for ways to take out the Borg, and as Locutus he would have knowledge of their weaknesses, he most definitely WOULD take it off the holodeck. Presumably, he could just restart the chapter, get the gun, give it to Lily, start over, and get a nice big pile of tommy guns. Then he could go totally apeshit, blow away all the Borg and live happily ever after.

Assuming the gun was replicated, even so assuming it was replicated from real matter and not holo-matter wich degrades outside the holodeck.

Picard's gun was NOT made out of real matter and he could NOT take it off the holodeck. Thus the bullets would also NOT be "real". This cannot be true as "The Killing Game" shows that the holodeck can be programmed to allow weapons off of it.

Picards gun not being real is not the same as the bullets not being real.
And given their total lack of ability to adapt to KE weapons, this is likely true.

Picard is a TOTAL FUCKING IDIOT! He had the perfect weapon to fight the Borg and he THREW IT AWAY! The MORON! He clearly is brain-damaged (or does not possess a cerebral cortex at all) and should be mocked for his unbelievable stupidity!

Yup.
Or the gun was not real and he couldn't take, why this would make objects like the bullets "unreal" I have no idea, esp. since we've seen that the holodeck replicates simple objects like that with real matter.

[Eframepilot]

Well, Picard may not be a total idiot, but I am.

I've noticed that a majority of the Wars arguments (e.g. Poe, Kreshna) claim that removing the safety protocols makes objects on the holodeck "solid", meaning made out of real matter. This cannot be the case, as I will show.

I do not show this, in fact I deny this in my conclusion. Serves me right for trying to make sense at 4 AM. Oh well.

[Eframepilot]

I doubt you can show it, it's already been proven that the holodeck already replicates such things, like it replicated snow.
With safety protocolls on, it would likely have the bullet dissipate, or not exist at all, however with them off, it's as realistic as it can be, and that includes replicating.

Actually it's pretty inconsistent. In "Ship in the Bottle", Picard throws a book, apparently solid, out - it instantly disintegrates in the doorway. But Cyrus Redblock (sp?) and crony walk right off the holodeck in "The Big Goodbye" and stand in the corridor, then take at least five seconds to dissipate. It is very unclear what determines what is replicated and what is just forcefields, let alone Cyrus(I think)'s temporary existence.

Premises: Picard's tommygun became made out of real matter when protocols were removed. Also, Borg drones cannot adapt to bullets.

Just like they couldn't adapt to Worfs knife nor blows and punches from the crew.

Couldn't or didn't? Remember, the Borg have a physical advantage over almost any melee combatant - and Worf only took 1 Borg out with his knife. Considering his success, he should have continued to fight Borg with his knife - and knowing Worf, he would have, if he believed he had ANY chance of victory.

Assuming the gun was replicated, even so assuming it was replicated from real matter and not holo-matter wich degrades outside the holodeck.

What is "holo-matter"? Why would it degrade outside the holodeck? Why couldn't Picard ask the holodeck to make the gun "real"? Obviously the same couldn't be done for Cyrus Redblock, but making a gun real is much easier.

Picards gun not being real is not the same as the bullets not being real.
And given their total lack of ability to adapt to KE weapons, this is likely true.

Why would the holodeck make bullets real but not guns? What about bullets sprayed at walls? Are THOSE bullets real? Does the holodeck make bullets "real" only when it knows they will hit a real person? Turning off the safety protocols makes it possible to be hurt. It does NOT make the holodeck into an "intentional death zone" where it tries to hurt the players!
(though it often seems so)

Example: Protocols are on. "Fake" (forcefields/holodeck matter) bullet is fired at Wesley's head. Holodeck stops simulating bullet right before it hits, or makes the impact non-fatal.

Now protocols are off. "Fake" bullet is fired at Wesley. It kills him. Dead body is taken off holodeck. "Fake" bullet disintegrates when removed.

You propose that the bullet is "real", i.e. survivable off the holodeck, when protocols are inactive. This is not necessarily true; in fact, as DarkStar pointed out, "real" bullets would damage the walls of the holodeck. Safety protocols prevent harm from occuring; they should NOT make the holodeck extra-deadly when deactivated, and definitely not damage the deck itself.

There are exceptions, such as an "airstrike" blowing away an entire wall in "The Killing Game", however, this was a unique situation, and could more easily be explained by the Hirogen leader ordering Kim to make all weapons "real", i.e. replicated. Same with all other "real" matter moved out of the deck. Wesley could have requested that the snow be made real, Data the water and Moriarty's paper made real. This makes more sense and explains the disappearing book and Cyrus Redblock more consistently. Also, as simple holo-objects can be made "real" and taken off the deck ("The Killing Game", explosives and guns) by command, Picard COULD have done so with the gun. And we are back to my original conclusion: Borg can adapt to bullets, or he (and Word for not continuing to hack n'slash Borg back in the corridors) is an idiot.

[DarkStar]

Premises: Picard's tommygun became made out of real matter when protocols were removed.

Actually, I've been assuming his gun was real matter the entire time, given that such handled items are commonly made with matter, and only the bullets are referred to as being holographic.

This suggests that Picard did not take the Tommy Gun with him because he would have had to use real bullets in it outside the holodeck, but these would presumably not be effective.

Picard, naturally, could not hope to draw all of the Borg into the Holodeck, and probably didn't try under the assumption that the Borg would adapt to continued hologram attack.

Oh, and by the way, the Borg Collective DOES mount phaser/disruptor/whatevers on their drones. Evidence: "Drone". In a flashback Seven uses her built-in green phaser ray to stun her rebellious co-Borg and force the re-establishment of a collective mind. God only knows why they don't use 'em more often.

Cool.

[DarkStar]

It was YOU who saying that projectile weapons have NEVER been used against the Borg, despite ST:FC implies that it is POSSIBLE that a projectile weapon (the Tommy Gun) has been used against the Borg.

Unfortunately, it is not possible that projectiles were used, since the bullets are identified as holographic in nature.

I'm saying that holodeck-created objects STILL EXISTS **outside** the holodeck and *not simply* dissapear.

Some do, some don't. The gun which Cyrus Redblock's lackey was carrying in "The Big Goodbye" disappeared with him, as I recall.

Ah, but I see now. This is you LAST RESORT, apparently. Twisting your opponent's argument because you're already in hopeless position.

The Warsie arguments are hopeless, young one. My argument is doing just fine.

Or maybe you should defintely improve your READING COMPREHENSION.

Perhaps you should stay on-topic. We were talking about the fact that projectile weapons had been used against the Borg, and you accused me of ignoring contrary examples.

Who's ever saying that they CANNOT replicate projectile weapons, asshole? I'm talking about mass producing, about making them HANDILY AVAILABLE to Feds ground troops. Idiot.

Mass-production is outside the scope of this argument.

Then PLEASE explain WHY bullets and phasers work the same way.

I did not claim that phasers operate using the same principle as bullets, retard. However, a particle beam weapon must, by default, involve KE in reference to the beam particles. This should not be so hard for you to understand.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

No, that's your conjecture . . . Warsie conjecture about Borg KE shields is based on the false notion that Picard fired real bullets, and not holographic ones.

And you claimed it "false notion" by completely ignoring what's seen ONSCREEN about holodeck-created objects and completely ignoring the possibility that Picard was just using simplified term instead of "holodeck-replicated projectiles commonly used in 20th century rapid-firing medium-sized firearm" or other technobabbles.

We must argue based on canon facts, dipshit, not the possibilities which you hope to pull from your hellish, gaping rectum.

Picard says "holographic bullets". Therefore, the bullets are holographic. End of discussion.

Ahh... classic "SW lasers are lasers" argument.

Second, replicator pattern is not THE SINGLE FACTOR in considering the mass-production and distribution of Feds projectile weapons. You also need MATERIALS, you also need POWER, you also need

. . . blah, blah, blah, red herrings, red herrings. Your statements about needing materials, power, and so on are more or less accurate, but utterly irrelevant to the discussion. There is no need for there to be mass production of the weapon over the entire Starfleet for the weapon to have been available for use during First Contact.

Look, moron. It was YOU who said that "the only distribution is the computer code for the replicator".

However, my inference that there are KE shields does make more sense than the Warsie conclusion that there aren't any.

Instead of simply claiming that it is possible for Borg drones to have selective KE shielding, you claimed that the inference DOES MAKE MORE SENSE than the inference that the drones doesn't have KE shielding, without providing even a single proof WHY it should make more sense.

The chain of reasoning has been provided.

Chain of bulshitting would be more accurate, since you based your argument on weak premise and selecting possibility that suits your taste.

Where "moronic" = "disagrees with Warsie opinions"

No, moronic means using weak premise

As far as conjectures go, I'd say my premises are pretty good.

and ignoring all other possibilities,

The possibilities of the universe are infinite. Only a few are likely. This is why I have rejected . . . not ignored . . . several possibilities you would prefer.

ignoring onscreen evidence,

No onscreen evidence has been ignored.

inventing "proof" based on what should be according to your own delusion,

I have invented no evidence. My argument is based on canon fact.

and finally using them as base to say that it is MORE reasonable to inference that Borg have selective KE shielding instead of saying that they don't have KE shielding.

Because it is the more reasonable position to take.

Since #2 represents Picard's statement on the matter, the issue is settled.

Since #2 contradicts everything we see ONSCREEN about holodeck-created objects,

It contradicts nothing we see onscreen about holodeck objects. Those materials which shall be interacted with a great deal are replicated. Those which are not are often holograms. Picard stated that the bullets were holograms. Case closed.

and simply ignoring the possibility that Picard was using simplified term instead of lenghty technobabble, then your premise is fucked.

We are debating canon, not the possibilities you can extract from your ass.

True, though the replicator pattern is available to officers, so long as they don't mind a call from SF Intel.

LOL!!!! The replicator pattern is available. Big deal. Now let's throw away the material, the resources, the logistic, and the policy needed to mass-distribute them.

They do not need to be mass-distributed to have been used aboard the E-E during First Contact.

Look, imbecile. Lemme' get right through this:

[1.] It is CANON that Picard fired Tommy Gun to the Borg. And it is CANON that the bullets kill them.


[2.] It is CANON that Picard SAID that they are hologram. It is also CANON that in other episodes, holodeck objects STILL EXISTS outside holodeck.

[3.] YOUR INTERPRETATION OF CANON said that the bullets must be holograms and it is *not* possible that those bullets are replicated object. Because YOUR INTERPRETATION OF CANON ignores the possibility that Picard was just using simplified term. YOUR INTERPRETATION OF CANON also dismiss the possibility that those bullets are replicated materials.

[4.] Actually, it is possible BOTH ways. It is possible that the bullets are just energy-based holograms, and it is ALSO possible that the bullets are replicated material.


Now, let's see the implication to your PATHETIC CLAIM, that to claim Borg drones have selective KE shielding is MORE REASONABLE than claiming that they have no KE shield.


[5.] If the bullets are replicated, then you're asshole is fucked. Case closed.

[6.] If the bullets are pure holograms, it only proved that, by canon source, HOLOGRAPHIC BULLETS CAN KILL BORG DRONES. But it DIDN'T PROVE that REAL BULLETS will be harmless against Borg drones.

Since it seems so far you have reading comprehension of a rock, then lemme repeat it for you:

IF HOLOGRAPHIC BULLETS CAN KILL BORG DRONES, IT DOESN'T PROVE THAT REAL BULLETS CAN'T.


So what does it mean? It means that EITHER WAY, YOU ARE FUCKED.



My advice: Next time please find SOLID PROOF to back your claim. If you keep masturbating on your delusion and use the ejaculated cum as foundation to your claim, you'll surely get fucked.

[DarkStar]

Assuming the gun was replicated, even so assuming it was replicated from real matter and not holo-matter wich degrades outside the holodeck.

"Holo-matter" is non-canon speculation of the Encyclopedia.

[DarkStar]

Actually it's pretty inconsistent. In "Ship in the Bottle", Picard throws a book, apparently solid, out - it instantly disintegrates in the doorway.

Hey, very good . . . I'd forgotten about that.

There are exceptions, such as an "airstrike" blowing away an entire wall in "The Killing Game", however, this was a unique situation, and could more easily be explained by the Hirogen leader ordering Kim to make all weapons "real", i.e. replicated. Same with all other "real" matter moved out of the deck. Wesley could have requested that the snow be made real, Data the water and Moriarty's paper made real. This makes more sense and explains the disappearing book and Cyrus Redblock more consistently.

Given that Picard actually threw the book out into the corridor, it is more likely that the holodeck makes something real without a verbal command, but automatically when you try to leave with something on your person.

For example, Picard had forgotten the lipstick . . . it is unlikely he ordered the computer to keep it on him, and then forgot. The process probably occurred automatically.

Cool, thanks!

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

I did not claim that phasers operate using the same principle as bullets, retard. However, a particle beam weapon must, by default, involve KE in reference to the beam particles. This should not be so hard for you to understand.

Nobody claim you claim phasers OPERATE using the same principle as bullets, HypocriteStar.

Based on your ignorance on what's seen onscreen about holodeck-created objects. Maybe you just missed those episodes, or maybe you wathed using your ass instead your eyes.

What? You're saying that projectile weapons have been used against the Borg in multiple episodes? Well, well, well . . . I'm hope you have something to back that BS up with. Of course, that would be a change for you.

No, idiot. I'm not saying that projectile weapons have been used against the Borg in multiple episodes. It was YOU who saying that projectile weapons have NEVER been used against the Borg, despite ST:FC implies that it is POSSIBLE that a projectile weapon (the Tommy Gun) has been used against the Borg.

I'm saying that holodeck-created objects STILL EXISTS **outside** the holodeck and *not simply* dissapear. The most logical conclusion is that they are REPLICATED objects. After Wesley falling in a river IN the holodeck, the water was STILL DRIPPING. Dumbass.

Ah, but I see now. This is you LAST RESORT, apparently. Twisting your opponent's argument because you're already in hopeless position.

Or maybe you should defintely improve your READING COMPREHENSION.

Of course, in your twisted delusion, the fact that they can recreate old projectile weapons means that they also mass-producing it and distributing it to their "ground forces".

No, but they can replicate the "modern design" projectile weapons which you ignored in the post at will.

Who's ever saying that they CANNOT replicate projectile weapons, asshole? I'm talking about mass producing, about making them HANDILY AVAILABLE to Feds ground troops. Idiot.

ROTFLMAO!!!! I'll DIE LAUGHING because of these points alone. Do phasers work like ***PROJECTILES***?????? Have you ever seen phasers PUNCHED HOLES at their target????????? For Chrissake, Gene Roddenberry will raise from his grave if he hear this.

Particles have KE, do they not? Therefore, a particle weapon operates on KE, does it not? Borg drone shields can repulse phaser beams, can they not? Therefore, the Borg have shielding capable of repelling KE, do they not?

Idiot.

LOL!!!!

Guys, this is the most idiotic statement I've ever seen. According to FuckStar, if Borg drone shields can repulse phaser beams, they must be able to block bullets, despite the fact that PHASERS and BULLETS work DIFFERENTLY.

Tell me, FuckStar, HAVE YOU EVER WATCH STAR TREK???? Watch it using YOUR EYES instead YOUR ASS. Watch the scene when you can see PHASER HIT THE TARGET.

Then watch old John Wayne movies (or any movie involves firefight). Watch the scene when someone getting shot.

Then PLEASE explain WHY bullets and phasers work the same way.

And I suggest you READ THIS before made such ridiculous claim that if Borg drones can block PHASER, they can block BULLETS:

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... Beam1.html

It was YOU who includes your "Phaser" points (3 and 4) to SUPPORT your claim that projectiles cannot hurt the drones, implying that IF drone's shield can resist phaser, THEN they can resist bullets as well, despite the fact that PHASERS and BULLETS hurt their target using different way.