How should the United States deal with North Korea?

Admiral Johnason · Post by **Admiral Johnason** » 2003-04-27 06:13pm

Wicked Pilot wrote:I think we should let South Korea and Japan take the lead on what to do, and support whatever decision they come up with.

Isn't that what we said about Chamberlin's decisions in 1937-39

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2003-04-27 06:18pm

Admiral Johnason wrote:
Wicked Pilot wrote:I think we should let South Korea and Japan take the lead on what to do, and support whatever decision they come up with.
Isn't that what we said about Chamberlin's decisions in 1937-39

Chamberlain is irrelevant in this case.

SK military budget his over three times that of NK. China can and will steam roll them at the first sight of trouble, and so will the U.S, NATO or others.

NK is only a danger if it starts mass producing advanced missile systems and nukes with the leadership continuing its maniac behaviour. I think that would be noticed and dealt with (and producing delivery systems coupled with nuclear warheads capable of reliably reaching the U.S or the E.U is far harder than building a few nukes).

Lonestar · Post by **Lonestar** » 2003-04-27 07:50pm

Couple of Questions need to be clearly answered befoer we decide what to do.

(1) Do they really have Nukes or are they blowing smoke up our ass? (probaly they do)

(2) How many? What kind of yield?

(3) Do we know for sure they can Nuke the Continental US? Are we willing to toast Pongyang if, say they glass Yokosuka? (Major USN base in Japan) What if they hit a civilian target in South Korea or Japan? De we respond in kind, even if we weren't hit?

(4) What Pressure, if any is China applying? How do we get them to apply more pressure? (My Answer: "You know, China, Taiwan has rrrreeeaaalllyyy been asking for the Modified Arleigh Burkes, and they might need the Security the AEGIS system provides if N. Korea has the ability to nuke them")

In any event, I think there should be masssive regional pressure on N. Korea. S. Korea, Japan, Russia, China, and the US should all be holding multi-lateral talks. We can probaly force them to stop without actually begining military conflict, we just have to make sure none of the neighbors are being smartasses.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-04-27 08:20pm

It doesn't really matter if they have nuclear weapons. The death toll from a Chemical or Bio attack would be similar.

Lonestar · Post by **Lonestar** » 2003-04-27 08:35pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:It doesn't really matter if they have nuclear weapons. The death toll from a Chemical or Bio attack would be similar.

True, but Chemical and Biological attacks are less effective in the field againest Military forces than Nukes are. Also, the Intial deathtoll of, say, Seattle being on the recieving end of an Atomic bomb (I find it unlikely The Koreans have moved on to Thermonuclears yet) would be much higher. The Effects of fallout would be worse if the Koreans decided to have it go off on impact, and toss as much crap into the air as possible.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-04-27 08:41pm

Lonestar wrote: True, but Chemical and Biological attacks are less effective in the field againest Military forces than Nukes are. Also, the Intial deathtoll of, say, Seattle being on the recieving end of an Atomic bomb (I find it unlikely The Koreans have moved on to Thermonuclears yet) would be much higher. The Effects of fallout would be worse if the Koreans decided to have it go off on impact, and toss as much crap into the air as possible.

50,000-300,000. Either way its unaceptabul, the US is not going to go down a course of action which would lead to mass attacks on cities. That is what the North would strike at.

Lonestar · Post by **Lonestar** » 2003-04-27 08:46pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:
50,000-300,000. Either way its unaceptabul, the US is not going to go down a course of action which would lead to mass attacks on cities. That is what the North would strike at.

Lord, I hope not. But on the other hand the uSA can't go down the road of "Okey-dokey" to nuclear blackmail. This is why it is absolutely imperative that the entire freaking part of NorthEast Asia is on board for talks. North Korea has to have it made clear to them that they are completely isolated. While food and medical supplies should be allowed in, all other goods shouldn't. N. Korea should be brought to the brink in such a way that it realises (1) The Powers-that-be are not up to actually removing the regime but (2) it's power will be irravocably destroyed.

Justin · Post by **Justin** » 2003-04-28 12:49am

Does it matter? Kim il jong has made it clear time and again he only wants to talk to us. We've tried to get him to talk to Russia and China too but he keeps saying no. He wants aid(money) and he wants a non-agression pact (a promise that we won't go after him personally like we did Saddam). China and Russia both know he's not going to go after them, so they don't really care except for the pressure we can bring on them and for the trouble it can cause us and our allies. In Putin's place, the issues personal. We told him to get lost on Iraq so he's telling us to get lost on Korea. The Chinese despise Kim and his "dynastic communism" but as long as he's causing us problems, again, they don't care. The only thing they want to prevent is their border with North Korea being flooded with Korean refugees, partly because Han Chinese are racist and don't want them in their country, and partly because they are having a hard time feeding the people they do have, let alone another few million.

I think we should continue to do as we have before: push for multilateral talks with China, Russia, Japan, South Korea, and North Korea. Times running out for the little bastard (remember, he has to worry about a coup at home if the Chinese won't back him anymore) and his country is starving (not that he's cared before but it adds pressure). He's either goning to blink and start talking or he's going to start a war. Probably not a nuclear war, but you never know the mind of a madman. And yes, if he uses NBC warfare on us or our allies we will turn Pyongyang into a glow in the dark crater.

[/quote]

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-04-28 01:36am

Justin wrote:Does it matter? Kim il jong has made it clear time and again he only wants to talk to us. We've tried to get him to talk to Russia and China too but he keeps saying no.

Case you didn't notice, the recent talks involved the US, North Korea and China

Justin · Post by **Justin** » 2003-04-28 01:52am

And what did the Chinese say?

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-04-28 01:59am

Justin wrote:And what did the Chinese say?

Give up your nukes? No one knows exactly what was said but China position is quite clear, they want any nukes gone and the program dead. Not so much because they fear North Korea, but because a nuclear north will very likely drive the South and Japan to build there own nuclear forces. That might also result in Taiwan deploying them as well, though some belive they already have.

Justin · Post by **Justin** » 2003-04-28 02:15am

What I'm trying to say is that the Chinese are going to do the minimal effort on this that they can get away with. So they are going to leave most of the work to us. Like I said, they despise him but they also regard North Korea as their rightful sphere of influence just like they do Taiwan and the former nation of Tibet. In other words they want the possible nukes gone (and I'd bet my life and soul they know whether or not Korea
actually has them) but Kim left in power. By the way, if North Korea dosn't have nukes and the Chinese know it, would they tell us? Maybe they are looking for some benefit to this situation that you and I are not aware of. Also if they know for sure about the nukes, maybe that's why they are not very worried about it.

The_Nice_Guy · Post by **The_Nice_Guy** » 2003-04-28 02:27am

And the saddest part of it is that China doesn't recognise that a stable and progressive(not that kind!) North Korea is the most conducive to its own long term goals of economic progress.

They're letting their jealousy of the US, as well as fear over the Taiwan issue, cloud their judgement.

That'll bite them in the ass later. Mark my words.

The Chinese(ethnicity, not nationality) Guy

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-04-28 02:30am

Justin wrote:What I'm trying to say is that the Chinese are going to do the minimal effort on this that they can get away with.

Wrong, China has a damn lot to lose from a nuclear north and is very intent on stopping their program. They are going to do everything they can to aid America and other nations in this.

What you think they might know doesn't matter, your crystal ball didn't even tell you what was making international news in the last couple days.

Justin · Post by **Justin** » 2003-04-28 02:40am

Bullshit. I knew. But I also know what their "help" is worth. And no, I don't have a crystal ball. Neither do you. All I have is FoxNews, MSNBC, Reuters and a few dozen more. What do you have?

Justin · Post by **Justin** » 2003-04-28 02:48am

Oh, and one more time for those who didn't understand the first time. I SAID CHINA WANTS THOSE NUKES GONE (if they even exist). But they are also going to milk this situation for everything it's worth. Perhaps they know that if they lean on Kim for Washington, Washington will owe them a favor.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-04-28 03:37am

My solution to the problem:

"Hey China, if North Korea wants nukes, well then, I guess we'll
have to dispose of these surplus AGM-69 SRAMs by selling them
to Taiwan."

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-04-28 03:42am

Admiral Johnason wrote:
Wicked Pilot wrote:I think we should let South Korea and Japan take the lead on what to do, and support whatever decision they come up with.
Isn't that what we said about Chamberlin's decisions in 1937-39

I am fucking sick and tired of people trotting out Chamberlain as a catch-all answer to every argument against direct military action in any given situation. Does the term "false analogy" ring a goddamned bell?

Every time someone has an argument about any issue in which direct military action may be involved, SOME fucking guy will always shout "Chamberlain! Chamberlain!" as if this ends the debate.

XPViking · Post by **XPViking** » 2003-04-28 03:53am

How should the US deal with NK? Very damn carefully.

XPViking

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-04-28 04:58am

MKSheppard wrote:My solution to the problem:

"Hey China, if North Korea wants nukes, well then, I guess we'll
have to dispose of these surplus AGM-69 SRAMs by selling them
to Taiwan."

I think we could at least be nice enough to sell them nukes that there planes can carry, and whose rocket motors aren't a decade out of date. I propose will kill this bird and there submarine requirement by giving them a couple SSBNs.

Once everything settles down I'm sure the Chinese will love the four new nuclear powers on its boarders, and Australia will be very happy once Indonesia decides it has a green light and fires up its own nuclear weapons programs. Should be interesting, since Australia threatened to preemptively bomb any Indonesian nuclear weapons facilities.

Suffice to say, a nuclear North Korea could screw a lot of places.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-04-28 05:00am

Justin wrote:Bullshit. I knew.

We've tried to get him to talk to Russia and China too but he keeps saying no.

Your words not mine.

Lonestar · Post by **Lonestar** » 2003-04-28 09:38am

Darth Wong wrote:
I am fucking sick and tired of people trotting out Chamberlain as a catch-all answer to every argument against direct military action in any given situation. Does the term "false analogy" ring a goddamned bell?

Every time someone has an argument about any issue in which direct military action may be involved, SOME fucking guy will always shout "Chamberlain! Chamberlain!" as if this ends the debate.

That's a Chamberlainesque philosophy, right there!

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-04-28 11:06am

Justin wrote:Oh, and one more time for those who didn't understand the first time. I SAID CHINA WANTS THOSE NUKES GONE (if they even exist). But they are also going to milk this situation for everything it's worth. Perhaps they know that if they lean on Kim for Washington, Washington will owe them a favor.

In other words, you acknowledge that China will strongly help the United States in disarming NK, which you denied just moments ago. What is your theory on how helpful the Chinese assistance will be in the matter?

Incidentally, NK's concession to hold multi-lateral talks is a direct result of the Coalition campaign in Iraq, which gave the US threats legitimacy that NK's threats do not have, and has substantially strengthened the American position with NK--something that MANY critics of the Coalition campaign said was not going to happen (ie. Why aren't we going after NK first?

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-04-28 01:17pm

Sea Skimmer wrote: I think we could at least be nice enough to sell them nukes that there planes can carry, and whose rocket motors aren't a decade out of date.

I just have a soft spot for the AGM-69 SRAM. Damn shame they killed
SRAM II...

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-04-28 01:40pm

MKSheppard wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote: I think we could at least be nice enough to sell them nukes that there planes can carry, and whose rocket motors aren't a decade out of date.
I just have a soft spot for the AGM-69 SRAM. Damn shame they killed
SRAM II...

A former BUFF driver on another board said that in the hands of a skilled crew they could get accuracy close to ALCM with those things.