Can Gensis effect a DS?

Admiral Johnason · Post by **Admiral Johnason** » 2003-04-27 04:27pm

A previous thread brought this up.

Could it reformat the Death Star if the sheilds were down?

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-04-27 04:33pm

I don't see why not.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-04-27 09:40pm

IF the shields were down... well, it would fuck it up, but other then that I don't know. I think there would be too many heavy metals and two few other things to make a habitable planet. Further, we have zero idea what hypermatter would do to it (though odds are, nothing good)

Shields up though, not a damn thing. Based on the formula
S > (I-U)/U * 10^ 26 joules for the destruction of Alderaan, the particle shields alone can handle more then 4.5E31 joules.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-04-27 10:18pm

We know that the Genesis device can convert a gaseous nebula into a rock planet.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-04-27 10:21pm

I don't think we know what'll happen if the Genesis Device were to be used on an energy field like the DS's shield. Supposedly the particles that do the transforming would be annihilated, as everything else does when it touches a particle shield.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-04-27 10:23pm

Howedar wrote:We know that the Genesis device can convert a gaseous nebula into a rock planet.

That is a net-negative energy process, and the raw materials are light elements. Since the transporter is the only known Treknology which seems to fit the requirements for the Genesis device and transporters are known not to work through heavy metals (which the DS surface armour is made of), it is not impossible to make a decent case for limited effects.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-04-27 10:52pm

On the other hand, the Genesis device seems to incite a reaction that feeds upon itself. Perhaps the DS would simply take longer because the reaction was less efficient or something?

I really have no idea.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-04-27 10:53pm

The device probably has a mass-handling limit, and may as Wong said have trouble with heavy metals. However I'd think it would at least take a chunk out of the station.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-04-27 10:58pm

Certainly it wouldn't do anything good.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2003-04-28 12:51am

Howedar wrote:We know that the Genesis device can convert a gaseous nebula into a rock planet.

A gaseous nebula, a starship, a spacestation AND Regula, which just happened to be a "dead rock in space"

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2003-04-28 01:58pm

The problem is that the Genesis reaction is unstable from the start. It's main compenent is proto-matter what ever the fuck that is, according tothe sources i've seen proto-matter is highly unstable and Starfleet destroyed all its stockpile.

Given what we've seen i'd say it was a similar reaction to the Suncrusher Torpedo and that the DS fully shielded can withstand a few hits of it, but after that the superstructure starts taking heavy damage. Bare in mind this is all guess work. Can one of the better minds here come up with a calculation of what the power output of the Genesis Torp was?

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-04-28 03:42pm

Darth Pounder wrote:The problem is that the Genesis reaction is unstable from the start. It's main compenent is proto-matter what ever the fuck that is, according tothe sources i've seen proto-matter is highly unstable and Starfleet destroyed all its stockpile.

Given what we've seen i'd say it was a similar reaction to the Suncrusher Torpedo and that the DS fully shielded can withstand a few hits of it, but after that the superstructure starts taking heavy damage. Bare in mind this is all guess work. Can one of the better minds here come up with a calculation of what the power output of the Genesis Torp was?

Actualy Proto-Matter was again used in DS9 for a different terraforming project. This one turned a dead star (ball of rock) into a star again.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-04-28 03:49pm

Alyeska wrote:
Darth Pounder wrote:The problem is that the Genesis reaction is unstable from the start. It's main compenent is proto-matter what ever the fuck that is, according tothe sources i've seen proto-matter is highly unstable and Starfleet destroyed all its stockpile.

Given what we've seen i'd say it was a similar reaction to the Suncrusher Torpedo and that the DS fully shielded can withstand a few hits of it, but after that the superstructure starts taking heavy damage. Bare in mind this is all guess work. Can one of the better minds here come up with a calculation of what the power output of the Genesis Torp was?
Actualy Proto-Matter was again used in DS9 for a different terraforming project. This one turned a dead star (ball of rock) into a star again.

Proto-matter must be some kind of magical elemental transmutation process. To turn a rock into a star, you must convert the iron into hydrogen, which is obviously elemental transmutation. Presumably, some of the target iron is annihilated in order to provide the energy necessary to split all of these atoms, perhaps through some kind of chain reaction.

Not that any of this makes any sense from a real-science perspective, but as an in-universe explanation, it is consistent with this DS9 incident as well as the behaviour of the Genesis Device. Of course, since the transmutation effects of proto-matter appear to be unstable, one must wonder if the star remained that way, or rapidly burned itself out and spontaneously turned back into a hunk of iron.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-04-28 03:52pm

As I recall, the star exploded (thus causing some Trekkies to leap to the conclusion the UFP has a star killer) but I can't remember.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-04-28 03:53pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Alyeska wrote:
Darth Pounder wrote:The problem is that the Genesis reaction is unstable from the start. It's main compenent is proto-matter what ever the fuck that is, according tothe sources i've seen proto-matter is highly unstable and Starfleet destroyed all its stockpile.

Given what we've seen i'd say it was a similar reaction to the Suncrusher Torpedo and that the DS fully shielded can withstand a few hits of it, but after that the superstructure starts taking heavy damage. Bare in mind this is all guess work. Can one of the better minds here come up with a calculation of what the power output of the Genesis Torp was?
Actualy Proto-Matter was again used in DS9 for a different terraforming project. This one turned a dead star (ball of rock) into a star again.
Proto-matter must be some kind of magical elemental transmutation process. To turn a rock into a star, you must convert the iron into hydrogen, which is obviously elemental transmutation. Presumably, some of the target iron is annihilated in order to provide the energy necessary to split all of these atoms, perhaps through some kind of chain reaction.

Not that any of this makes any sense from a real-science perspective, but as an in-universe explanation, it is consistent with this DS9 incident as well as the behaviour of the Genesis Device. Of course, since the transmutation effects of proto-matter appear to be unstable, one must wonder if the star remained that way, or rapidly burned itself out and spontaneously turned back into a hunk of iron.

I am inclinded to think it probably lasted. Then again I can't say for sure. Its entirely reasonable to assume that the doctor who created this device knew of the Genesis device faliure was due to Proto-Matter. Its possible he used some other components to increase stability, but we will never know. The episode ends with the Doctor slamming his shuttle into the ball of rock to turn it into a star (he comitted suicide for a different reason, had to do with his wife).

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2003-04-28 03:57pm

This entire premise is silly. Why would the Death Star's shields be down? Was the Genesis Device fired in a sneak attack, by a ship so cloaked that the Death Star couldn't detect it? Was the Genesis Device also cloaked and undetectable? Was the Genesis Wave somehow cloaked as well, since it seems that either the Genesis Device needs a flight time of 6 minutes to build up to detonation?

The Genesis Device was not designed to work against shielded targets. It's safe to say it wasn't designed to worked against armored targets as well.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-04-28 04:52pm

Lord Poe wrote:This entire premise is silly. Why would the Death Star's shields be down? Was the Genesis Device fired in a sneak attack, by a ship so cloaked that the Death Star couldn't detect it? Was the Genesis Device also cloaked and undetectable? Was the Genesis Wave somehow cloaked as well, since it seems that either the Genesis Device needs a flight time of 6 minutes to build up to detonation?

The Genesis Device was not designed to work against shielded targets. It's safe to say it wasn't designed to worked against armored targets as well.

If it can turn a ball of rock into a planet, and this is creating a planet with 1G of gravity on the surface, then I think it would seriously fuck over the DS if not outright destroy it.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-04-28 04:53pm

Any proof that these "proto-matter" particles that do the transforming won't be annihilated upon contact with the Death Star's shield? Everything else is.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-04-28 07:58pm

Alyeska wrote:
Lord Poe wrote:This entire premise is silly. Why would the Death Star's shields be down? Was the Genesis Device fired in a sneak attack, by a ship so cloaked that the Death Star couldn't detect it? Was the Genesis Device also cloaked and undetectable? Was the Genesis Wave somehow cloaked as well, since it seems that either the Genesis Device needs a flight time of 6 minutes to build up to detonation?

The Genesis Device was not designed to work against shielded targets. It's safe to say it wasn't designed to worked against armored targets as well.
If it can turn a ball of rock into a planet, and this is creating a planet with 1G of gravity on the surface, then I think it would seriously fuck over the DS if not outright destroy it.

Care to justify this non sequitur? Treknology chain reaction effects on the surface silicates of a typical planetoid are well-documented. Treknology limitations against heavy metals are also well-documented.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-04-28 08:22pm

I'd like to remind a few geniuses that the shield is immaterial in the scenario as specified in the OP.

JodoForce · Post by **JodoForce** » 2003-04-29 04:53am

We don't know, we don't know and we don't know. Honestly I can't believe anyone can be debating this based on the evidence at hand.

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2003-04-29 06:28am

so given trek's track record of weakness against heavy metals, i don't think the damage is critical, however it might lead to a rather interestingly decorated death star hull......grass and trees with fine lake for fishing, untill the atmosphere floats away due to lack of gravity and the superlaser boils off the lake that sits in it's dish.

JodoForce · Post by **JodoForce** » 2003-04-29 06:32am

Actually there won't be lack of gravity

Col. Crackpot · Post by **Col. Crackpot** » 2003-04-29 06:38am

JodoForce wrote:Actually there won't be lack of gravity

thats right! artificial gravity! Well then i guess the only problem they would really have is one hell of a rainstorm after they fire the superlaser.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2003-04-29 10:33am

What will happen is that a gigantic flower will grow on the side of the Death Star, transforming it into a Hippy Star.