Fatass may lose his Oscar

[Stormbringer]

Moore obviously has barely researched what he's talking about.

If shoddy research is all he's guilty of, which is highly unlikely given any fact checking at all should have given him the correct facts. And of course given the editorial bias of BFC I think lying would be more accurate in Moore's case.

[Joe]

Moore obviously has barely researched what he's talking about.

If shoddy research is all he's guilty of, which is highly unlikely given any fact checking at all should have given him the correct facts. And of course given the editorial bias of BFC I think lying would be more accurate in Moore's case.

Finally, someone agrees with my first point.

[Wicked Pilot]

I think the world would be safer if there were guns but no humans.

[Darth Wong]

People are a fucking hoot. When Michael Moore presents some steaming turd that is full of "misleading innuendo" it is defended since it is not an "all-out lie" even though the conclusions that an unfamiliar person will get from it are erroneous-- thus making it serve the purpose of a lie...

Except that the big item on the complaint list (the Heston speech) is an overblown joke. MoO says there are real factual errors relating to gun laws; this is much more serious, and I would concur that it's a major indictment. But harping about the Heston speech (or worse yet, the facetious cartoon characters) is just pathetic.

...so what, then, is your beef with Fox News? They present news with an admittedly more-to-the-right stance... they present what happened but there may be some "misleading innuendo" there, too.

And if someone said that everything coming from Fox is a lie, you would jump right in there to point out that innuendo is different from outright lying, Coyote.

Michael Moore presented things in such a way that a person unfamiliar with the debate will walk away with a "particular point of view". He deliberately left out certain contextual or background information that would allow the person a more fair and accurate abilty to judge for him or her self. Anyone who defends that kind of slant reporting bias is as good as a Fundie.

Ah, shameless and totally unrelated guilt by association tactics now? How unprincipled of you. I have not seen you justify your claim that the differentiation between lies and innuendo somehow makes you equivalent to someone who thinks everyone in the world but his own ideological brethren should be tortured for eternity and who mindlessly hews to dogma in the face of all facts.

[Sea Skimmer]

I think the world would be safer if there were guns but no humans.

Indeed, a fucking shove put me in the hospital for six days while the large stock of firearms in my attic and basement has yet to harm me.

[Stormbringer]

Except that the big item on the complaint list (the Heston speech) is an overblown joke. MoO says there are real factual errors relating to gun laws; this is much more serious, and I would concur that it's a major indictment. But harping about the Heston speech (or worse yet, the facetious cartoon characters) is just pathetic.

There are certainly more damning errors but Moore's dishonest tactics in those go a long way towards destroying his credibilty. He twisted the speech's intent around completely. And that cartoon is nothing but whispered innuendo passing for comedy.

[Nathan F]

Moore obviously has barely researched what he's talking about.

If shoddy research is all he's guilty of, which is highly unlikely given any fact checking at all should have given him the correct facts. And of course given the editorial bias of BFC I think lying would be more accurate in Moore's case.

It was said to be a documentary. If shoddy research is the case, then that is even MORE reason his oscar should be revoked.

[Coyote]

...When Michael Moore presents ... "misleading innuendo" it is defended since it is not an "all-out lie" ......so what, then, is your beef with Fox News?...

Fox News is a news agency. It has certain moral and legal obligations to report stories accurately and quickly to the people whom they serve. Granted, I think that those extend into documentary films, and thus should also govern BFC and other series, but the point is the same. Fox sometimes ignores its requirements to confirm stories, Moore obviously has barely researched what he's talking about.

I agree with you. A documentary is essentially being presented as information, ie, news, and should be held to a certain degree of integrity in reporting. But then again, since some people's favorite oxymoron is "military intelligence" I like to respond with my own favorite: "Journalistic Integrity".

The folks that criticize Fox News for being "propaganda" or "distortions of reality" put spin control on maximum to defend Moore-- his distortions are "forgivable" since it's not supposed to be "real news". Well, if it is not "real" then it is little more than heresay evidence, at best...

[Coyote]

... the big item on the complaint list (the Heston speech) is an overblown joke.

While in the overall sum of things it is a sideshow, it does still resort to a purposeful distortion of Heston's image, and the image of what an NRA member stands for. It was an attempt to portray the NRA (through Heston) as laughably unconcerned about school massacres so long as they get to own guns. It is a clever ad hominem attack rather than real research, as you yourself should recognize as a poor tactic.

... if someone said that everything coming from Fox is a lie, you would jump right in there to point out that innuendo is different from outright lying, Coyote.

You know this? Let's say Fox News shows the troops proudly marching by, while not focusing on a couple of nearby dead bodies. That does not deny the truth that the troops were marching by, apparantly doing well. It omits the bodies, providing some limited understanding of what is going on but not making an intentional distortion like Moore.

Moore, on the other hand, would take the image of the dead bodies and splice it with an interview with the troops days or weeks later, when they were laughing at some joke made by the Company Commander, and not explain this--leaving the viewer with the impression that the troops found the dead bodies humorous.

That, I think, is the difference-- a reporter (or documentarian) can omit a truth-- which is not good in itself-- but it is still a lot different than purposefully mixing or ignoring contexts to create an impression that is entirely fictional for the benefit of delivering a political pov. Especially when they are trying to pass it off as "fact".

...I have not seen you justify your claim that the differentiation between lies and innuendo somehow makes you equivalent to someone who thinks everyone in the world but his own ideological brethren should be tortured for eternity and who mindlessly hews to dogma in the face of all facts.

Put that way, yes, I overstated and I apologize. A blatant appeal to emotion. While I find the level of deceit similar to a Fundie's lies the larger implications are in no wise similar.

[NecronLord]

and they have political
power, unlike the Christian Right

Yes, the Christian Right have no political power in America.

One question.

Are you trying to make me die laughing?

[Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi]

and they have political
power, unlike the Christian Right

Yes, the Christian Right have no political power in America.

One question.

Are you trying to make me die laughing?

I'm thinking the same thing. After all, Pat Robertson was a candidate for the 1988 Republican nomination, and even if the big names in the Christian "Right" are in politics themselves, they are a major influence on politicians.

[Coyote]

The Christian Right has power but they use it in such stumbletyfuck ways that they end up pissing most of it away. They openly talk about "putting God back in our schools" and other crazy, wacky agendas. They limit their message to appeal to a narrow demographic-- WASPs, essentially. And uber-conservative religious ones at that.

The NRA is much more politically astute and also has the advantage of appealing to an actual issue, which can cross ethnic and gender lines. The first guy that talked to me about joining the NRA was actually a skinny, nerdy bisexual dude who wanted to keep his rights intact rather than have to fend for himself against any potential gay-bashers out there.

[MKSheppard]

The Christian Right has power but they use it in such stumbletyfuck ways that they end up pissing most of it away. They openly talk about "putting God back in our schools" and other crazy, wacky agendas. They limit their message to appeal to a narrow demographic-- WASPs, essentially. And uber-conservative religious ones at that.

Exactly. You saved me the trouble of typing it all out. BTW, Jimmy Carter
was the one who brought the Christian fundies into politics with his first
campaign.

[Skelron]

You Know I've now seen Bowling and would like to counter some of the Points raised in the Anti-Bowling Pieces...

Here I go. (All found as links within MK'S link so I won't repost them)

And the very title of Mr. Moore's film is based on a deception. It refers to the bowling class that the Columbine killers supposedly took the morning they committed their murders. The only problem is that they actually cut the class.

Lie the Title is taken from the fact that the detective investigating the case said 'What where the killers doing the morning of the attack, we believe they where Bowling' That is At 6Am in the morning I hasten to add, They TOOK The Bowling Class yes but he never Claimed they went to Bowling Class that day.

Forbes reports that an early scene in "Bowling" in which Mr. Moore tries to demonstrate how easy it is to obtain guns in America was staged. He goes to a small bank in Traverse City, Mich., that offers various inducements to open an account and claims "I put $1,000 in a long-term account, they did the background check, and, within an hour, I walked out with my new Weatherby," a rifle.

Don't actually remember him saying that at any point! What I do remember is the scene he goes and asks to open an account... after he has the account open and the gun he leaves Cut to next scene. Also Note it showed him filling in the Background check, He would hardly need to tell you, 'oh and I just filled in a Background check which you saw Twenty seconds ago and it was obvious what I was doing as the Lady Told you...' Is what is being claimed he basically said here.

But Jan Jacobson, the bank employee who worked with Mr. Moore on his account, says that only happened because Mr. Moore's film company had worked for a month to stage the scene. "What happened at the bank was a prearranged thing," she says. The gun was brought from a gun dealer in another city, where it would normally have to be picked up. "Typically, you're looking at a week to 10 days waiting period," she says. Ms. Jacobson feels used: "He just portrayed us as backward hicks."

Strange as they told him they had over a Thousand Guns out back and where a Licensed Fire Arms dealer.
But in any case the main point of this scene was that THEY Gave out Guns in a bank. Even with the need to Wait a Month as claimed here it is still the case that they hand out Guns at a Bank. Background Check or not, All the Guns at Columbine where Legal after all...

Mr. Moore makes the preposterous claim that a Michigan program by which welfare recipients were required to work was responsible for an incident in which a six-year-old Flint boy shot a girl to death at school. Mr. Moore doesn't mention that the boy's mother had sent him to live in a crack house where her brother and a friend kept both drugs and guns--a frequently lethal combination.

Nor did the Sherif that had investigated the case, HE WAS the one who said the Welfare Program was a part of the Problem as well. Personally I'll take his word for it.

Some of the fact-bending and omissions of "Bowling for Columbine" could charitably be chalked up to really sloppy research. (I called the chief archivist for Mr. Moore's film, Carl Deal, yesterday, but he hasn't called back.) Others show a willful aversion to the truth. Mr. Moore repeats the canard that the United States gave the Taliban $245 million in aid in 2000 and 2001, somehow implying we were in cahoots with them. But that money actually went to U.N.-affiliated humanitarian organizations that were completely independent of the Taliban.

He actually said Afghanistan Never the Taliban Small Point But still.

Strange then isn't it that During his Interview with Heston, Heston never said no it was a year later... Or that the Protestor's outside the Speach center where Anoyed that he came to their Town so soon after the Shootings.

Fact: Heston's speech was given at a "get out the vote" rally in Flint, which was held when elections rolled by some eight months after the shooting ( Feb. 29 vs Oct. 17, 2000).

Fact HEston must have REALLY BAD News service to both him and his people, as during the interview with Moore he states, 'I didn't know about the shooting.' Wow he never knew about the shooting 8 Months later, his people didn't tell him this fact either, didn't tell him people might not be happy with his presence. Damn it he needs better people!

The Whole Animated part. Actually the Animated sequance is not a part of the Moore works, he did not create it, nor ask for it. It is part of a animated series made by the same people, I think, who do South Park. How do I know this, Late night TV viewing showed me a very similar Cartoon in Style, Character's and Voicing... IE The same Characters, with the Same Voices, in the same Scenary at the start, in the same style. Conclusion same Short but a different Eppisode.

Shooting at Buell Elementary School in Michigan. Bowling depicts the juvenile shooter who killed Kayla Rolland as a sympathetic youngster, from a struggling family, who just found a gun in his uncle's house and took it to school. "No one knew why the little boy wanted to shoot the little girl."

Wow so you mean he was a troubled youngster, and not a perfect child, after all he never saw his mum, as she was off to work before he woke up and in bed before she got home, and yet still couldn't afford to rent a dump to live in... Damn it he sould have been perfectly mentally sound.

Canadian officials have pointed out that the buy is faked or illegal: Canadian law has since, 1998, required ammunition buyers to present proper identification. Since Jan. 1, 2001, it has required non-Canadians to present a firearms borrowing or importation license, too. (Bowling appears to have been filmed in mid and late 2001).

Hate to break it too you but I imagine it was filmed over a few years, and Micheal has a Firearms License...

"proudly proclaims that the plane killed Vietnamese people on Christmas Eve of 1972."

The plaque actually reads that "Flying out of Utapao Royal Thai Naval Airfield in southeast Thailand, the crew of 'Diamond Lil' shot down a MIG northeast of Hanoi during 'Linebacker II' action on Christmas eve 1972." This is pretty mild compared to the rest of Bowling, but the viewer can't even trust Moore to honestly read a monument.

Lets see is it a proud Annoucement YES Does it give the date of the attack mentioned Yes. Did it Kill People... YES so shorthand it proudly states that the plane killed Vitnamese people.

Heston section. (Too long to Paste.) No actually Moores theme was that it was Fear that Drove the Gun Crime up, not Racial events FEAR itself. everything else was The Excuses others would come up with to explain the matter, but it wasn't the case...

The Clock incident. The clock is obviously A.) Inacurate we have him making the appointment for 8:30Am shown in Charleton Heston's Voice at his Gates. The clock is inaccurate here not Moore. The Time of interview and the editing. Maybe Charleton is a very Ameniable host who offers his Guests Tea, tells a few Jokes, tells a few Stories, I can imagine that, no great secret Conspiracy needed!!

Or as he put it elsewhere, "then I learned that Canada has 7 million guns but they don't kill each other like we do. I thought, gosh, that's uncomfortably close to the NRA position: Guns don't kill people, people kill people."

Wow you mean a LIFE TIME member of the NRA is not necc Anti-Gun well blow me over with a Feather Duster, I'm in Shock. A Man who won the MarksmanShip award back in high School from the NRA is not Anti-Gun Shock horror oh but this fact is missing from the Criticisms, making Moore out to be an Anti-Gun person forced to accept a position in his investigation.

and one of the hunters was shot. According to the police reports, the foolish hunters had only a still camera, but Bowling presents a fabricated video clip which purports to have been filmed by the hunter's friend. Because the clip appears to be a home movie,

Oh this one, Hmm Well you see an increasing trend in Documentary's is to present re-enactments when real footage is not avaible. The BBC did it with 'Walking with Dinosaur's, Walking with...' Etc etc, they are still documentary's and arn't even reporting many events that we can be sure of, we know this happened, we don't know Dinosaur Mating rituals, this is nothing.

Sorry I'm reading then responding here, so I need to back track a little.

Michigan's welfare-to-work program is generous:

Not according to The Flint Sherif it's not. a guy who see's it's effects everyday.


Well I'm done.

[NapoleonGH]

... the big item on the complaint list (the Heston speech) is an overblown joke.

While in the overall sum of things it is a sideshow, it does still resort to a purposeful distortion of Heston's image, and the image of what an NRA member stands for. It was an attempt to portray the NRA (through Heston) as laughably unconcerned about school massacres so long as they get to own guns. It is a clever ad hominem attack rather than real research, as you yourself should recognize as a poor tactic.

Umm considering the fact that the NRA bought politicians in Utah are passing a law to allow students to bring CONCEALED weapons into schools and that the NRA supports this point of view basically is more than enough evidence to show that the NRA doesnt give a damn about the lives of anyone so long as they have the right to be the ones doing the killing. Anyone who supports an organization that has called for students to be ARMED, sickens me

[Skelron]

Doh should read the whole thing before posting.

I know others have already covered the issues I brought up, in my defence I had decided that the very next Micheal Moore and Bowling thread that came up would have me answer I few of the Criticismswhat I did so I just did it...

[Hamel]

ZOMBIE THREAD!!

[Joe]

For once I am in agreement with Ham. We've had about a dozen or so threads discussing fatass, it's time to put it to rest.

[phongn]

Skelron has been neglecting to look at the post dates.

[Skelron]

Skelron has been neglecting to look at the post dates.

I'm sorry I go by whats on Page one or Page two. If theirs something I want to bring up I do a search for it, If I find it I check it over, if most seems to have been covered I leave it alone otherwise I may ressurect it...

[RedImperator]

Jesus, do people actually go digging through the back pages looking for threads to revive, or do they see them when they're new and think about them for weeks until they discover something new to add?

[Crown]

Oh for fucks sake, he contributed. He was answering posts in this thread, and if he hadn't performed the 'dreaded' necromancy some other ass-hat would have just said 'we have had three of these threads already fuck-wit go look for them'. Jesus.

Having said that; 'Holy thread necromancy Batman!'

[Hamel]

So, is this thread open for bidness?

If so, I'd like to add that Ashcroft belonged, or still belongs to a group that advocated allowing children to bring firearms to school.

[MKSheppard]

So, is this thread open for bidness?

If so, I'd like to add that Ashcroft belonged, or still belongs to a group that advocated allowing children to bring firearms to school.

And this is evil how? Who the fuck cares if they have a deer rifle in their
trunk to go hunting deer with after school hours?

*shoots Hamel for his thread necromancy*

[Hamel]

And this is evil how? Who the fuck cares if they have a deer rifle in their
trunk to go hunting deer with after school hours?

Kids being allowed to bring firearms to school = many dead kids

*shoots Hamel for his thread necromancy*

Hey, Crown doesn't seem to care much about the thread's return from beyond.

*humps Sheps leg*