Can we blame Picard for the change in the Borg?

[DocMoriartty]

The Borg were the unstoppable horde for a while and then they changed.

Why?

Well one change was they went from only an interest in technology to suddenly kidnapping Picard and turning him into Locutus.

Why did they do that?

My guess is the Borg were confused. The Borg knew what the Enterprise could do. They had scanned its computer and knew the measure of its power. Yet the Enterprise escaped the first Borg Cube it encountered mere seconds before it was to be assimilated. The Borg not knowing that Q was on board probably came to the conclusion that something about the biologicals on the ship were behind the escape.

So the next time the Borg encounter the Enterprise they go straight to the top and kidnap Picard himself. They then do something they had never done before. They attempted to bring him into the Collective. This though was something new, up to this point we had seen that the Borg grew their young and then pulled them into the Collective. This was a mistake. No matter what you say about Picard you have to admit he is very strong willed. Much more strong will then any Borg who had been grown and lived its entire existance in the Collective. This meant that while the Collective controlled Picard parts of his personality crept into the Collective and in a manner of speaking contaminated it.

After this it was only a matter of time. The Borg suddenly became interested in biological life-forms. They adapted some tech they had stolen and created the borg nano-probes and the infection tubes so that they could more easily bring other biological lifeforms into the Collective.

As time passed the Borg became less uniform. They no longer had the same chalk white color. They no longer looked uniform and their cybernetic devices became varied to fit the different species brought into the collective.

This eventually weaked the Borg as part of the Borg strength was in their uniform nature.


Opinions?

[Worlds Spanner]

Interesting idea.

I'm really not sure.

[Howedar]

I rather doubt that Picard's feeling are unique among the hundreds of trillions of sentients the Borg have assimilated.

[Superman]

I agree with Howedar.

[DocMoriartty]

I rather doubt that Picard's feeling are unique among the hundreds of trillions of sentients the Borg have assimilated.

You miss my point.

I am suggesting that up until Picard was "assimilated" you never saw the borg do it. The borg as Q pointed out had no interest in people. They were only interested in technology.

They merged Picard with the collective to try to learn how the Enterprise escaped. They had to use a very slow manual process without any nanites or those vampire pokers which did not exist yet.

So while Picard is not unique among humanity he would certainly stand out among the origional borg which were grown and inserted into the collective at birth and all probably very weak willed individually.

[Darth Wong]

I am suggesting that up until Picard was "assimilated" you never saw the borg do it. The borg as Q pointed out had no interest in people. They were only interested in technology.

A neat idea which was rewritten after the fact by B&B, who showed 7 of 9 and her parents being assimilated many years before this took place.

[Worlds Spanner]

Also, now that I think about it, I think that the timeline is too short. I doubt enough time passed between Q Who and BoBW or any other Borg encounters in Trek to date for the Borg to have changed their entire mode of expansion and reproduction.

[Superman]

And if 7's parents were studying them long before Picard, why the fuck didn't the Federation know about them? Why, B & B? WHY? Explain it to us!

[Superman]

El Aurians are probably not members of the Federation.

[Superman]

Good point. Also, you would think that someone would have become Guinan's friend and then would have been told about the Borg.

[avatarxprime]

also Guinan said that the borg destroyed their people, not assimilate, destroy as though they were unnecessary. They wanted the tech and took it and seeing that there was nothing novel about her people, eliminated them. However, the thing that DocMoriartty points out about the borg not knowing about Q is interesting. The fact the Guinan and by extension her people can at least block Q from affecting them (QWho again) is a worthwhile talent to have. Perhaps just in general the borg have no knowledge of Q.

[Typhonis 1]

Or the Continum sent the borg to wipe the El Aurien out as a threat to them....... how ghard would that have been for the Q to do have the Borg Queen kill an entire population after they are deemed not worthy

[NecronLord]

It is possible that 7 is only about 15 y'know. The borg accellerate the growth of children they assimilate.

[Sea Skimmer]

I am suggesting that up until Picard was "assimilated" you never saw the borg do it. The borg as Q pointed out had no interest in people. They were only interested in technology.

A neat idea which was rewritten after the fact by B&B, who showed 7 of 9 and her parents being assimilated many years before this took place.

It makes sense in ways. If you've found all new technology such as the ship 7 of 9 and her parents where on, it's quicker to learn how to use it from someone who knows then to figure it out for yourself.

[Darth Fanboy]

also Guinan said that the borg destroyed their people, not assimilate, destroy as though they were unnecessary. They wanted the tech and took it and seeing that there was nothing novel about her people, eliminated them. However, the thing that DocMoriartty points out about the borg not knowing about Q is interesting. The fact the Guinan and by extension her people can at least block Q from affecting them (QWho again) is a worthwhile talent to have. Perhaps just in general the borg have no knowledge of Q.

But the BOrg assimilated Picard, that knowledge became a part of the collective,.

[DocMoriartty]

I am suggesting that up until Picard was "assimilated" you never saw the borg do it. The borg as Q pointed out had no interest in people. They were only interested in technology.

A neat idea which was rewritten after the fact by B&B, who showed 7 of 9 and her parents being assimilated many years before this took place.

Yeah, that is the one flaw. The problem is though if the borg were assimilating people 20 years before then why did they not have the process down pat? Why did they have to use the slow method on Picard?

[seanrobertson]

The Borg were the unstoppable horde for a while and then they changed.

Why?

Well one change was they went from only an interest in technology to suddenly kidnapping Picard and turning him into Locutus.

Why did they do that?

The only indication we have that the Borg were solely interested in technology comes from Q himself. Assimilation of humans took place long before 2365.

What Q probably meant was that the Borg are primarily interested in acquisition of technology. IF your technology gets their attention, or if you use it in such a way as to give them a little trouble, they might assimilate you.

That was the case when they encountered the Kazon, anyway. Their technology was too primitive to warrant interest, so they didn't even bother assimilating any of the species.

My guess is the Borg were confused. The Borg knew what the Enterprise could do. They had scanned its computer and knew the measure of its power. Yet the Enterprise escaped the first Borg Cube it encountered mere seconds before it was to be assimilated. The Borg not knowing that Q was on board probably came to the conclusion that something about the biologicals on the ship were behind the escape.

So the next time the Borg encounter the Enterprise they go straight to the top and kidnap Picard himself. They then do something they had never done before. They attempted to bring him into the Collective. This though was something new, up to this point we had seen that the Borg grew their young and then pulled them into the Collective.

No, the Borg never "grew" young. Those babies were simply assimilated and kept in maturation chambers until they could be useful drones. Circa 2355, Seven of Nine was put in a maturation chamber. As she herself later said, "The Borg do not reproduce, they assimilate."

Riker was just wrong. Borg aren't "born human." That was an off-the-cuff assessment on his part. We have multiple instances of babies or small children being assimilated, then put into maturation chambers. That's where they come from.

This was a mistake. No matter what you say about Picard you have to admit he is very strong willed. Much more strong will then any Borg who had been grown and lived its entire existance in the Collective. This meant that while the Collective controlled Picard parts of his personality crept into the Collective and in a manner of speaking contaminated it.

After this it was only a matter of time. The Borg suddenly became interested in biological life-forms. They adapted some tech they had stolen and created the borg nano-probes and the infection tubes so that they could more easily bring other biological lifeforms into the Collective.

Again, they already had that technology--far before Picard's great great great grandfather was ever born. We definitely saw it in use prior to Picard's assimilation (Seven assimilating other drones), though I do not recall the episode's name. I'll look for it.

As time passed the Borg became less uniform. They no longer had the same chalk white color. They no longer looked uniform and their cybernetic devices became varied to fit the different species brought into the collective.

This eventually weaked the Borg as part of the Borg strength was in their uniform nature.

Opinions?

A nice thought, but a few of your assumptions are rooted in faulty data.

Incidentally, I don't think the Borg are "weaker" in VGR than they were beforehand. If anything, the opposite is probably true. I think this is as goofy an idea as people thinking the TOS Enterprise was more advanced than the E-D, E-E, and so on.

[seanrobertson]

I am suggesting that up until Picard was "assimilated" you never saw the borg do it. The borg as Q pointed out had no interest in people. They were only interested in technology.

A neat idea which was rewritten after the fact by B&B, who showed 7 of 9 and her parents being assimilated many years before this took place.

Yeah, that is the one flaw. The problem is though if the borg were assimilating people 20 years before then why did they not have the process down pat? Why did they have to use the slow method on Picard?

Why do you think they used the "slow method" on him?

If they did, it could easily be explained by the Queen's desire for a "counterpart," someone who was still "human" enough to "give himself willingly" ("First Contact").

[seanrobertson]

also Guinan said that the borg destroyed their people, not assimilate, destroy as though they were unnecessary. They wanted the tech and took it and seeing that there was nothing novel about her people, eliminated them. However, the thing that DocMoriartty points out about the borg not knowing about Q is interesting. The fact the Guinan and by extension her people can at least block Q from affecting them (QWho again) is a worthwhile talent to have. Perhaps just in general the borg have no knowledge of Q.

Assimilate and destroy can be synonymous in that assimilating people DOES destroy their identities. Besides, Guinan's choice of words might've been poor.

[Superman]

I don't think that was the explanation. Up until the Hugh epidode, "the Borg assimilate races, not individuals," the Borg were not routinely assimilating. Q even said they are ONLY interested in technology. This changed later, but the original concept of the Borg was to only be interested in what they could learn.

They assimilated Picard to be a spokeperson to humanity, and to learn about his knowledge of StarFleet and the alpha quadrant.

[kojikun]

i thin we can chock this whole thing up to poor planning. seriously, i doubt Roddenberry originally knew when he set out to make guinans character that she would have vital knowledge about the Borg threat, etc. i think he just made it up as he went along.

GR: "Hmm.. we need someone who knows lots about the borg.. I know! Guinan! Her people could have been wiped out by the borg themselves! YES!"

And the same goes for the rest of the series. More on-demand issues not forethought.

[Superman]

Well, I think they planned the Borg up to "Q Who." After that, they just winged it. Look at FC and Voyager; defiantely POOR planning.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

It is possible that 7 is only about 15 y'know. The borg accellerate the growth of children they assimilate.

All kids mature with unnatural speed in ST, or have ever since we met Worf's microbrat.

[seanrobertson]

I don't think that was the explanation. Up until the Hugh epidode, "the Borg assimilate races, not individuals," the Borg were not routinely assimilating. Q even said they are ONLY interested in technology. This changed later, but the original concept of the Borg was to only be interested in what they could learn.

They weren't routinely assimilating that we know of. We only saw them twice up to that point in time. We know that the Borg were assimilating long before they ever decided to grab Picard, so we dismiss their lack of apparent interest in assimilating humanity on the grounds that such is a hasty generalization.

And Q said a lot of things of the Borg that were ambiguous. He claimed Borg didn't have gender: "Not a he, not a she..." I'd say Seven is *definitely* a woman, and Hugh was male. Perhaps we should take his condescending talk about Borg goals with similar skepticism (read: willingness to interpret with the bulk of evidence from VGR, "FC," and so on).

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

I don't think that was the explanation. Up until the Hugh epidode, "the Borg assimilate races, not individuals," the Borg were not routinely assimilating. Q even said they are ONLY interested in technology. This changed later, but the original concept of the Borg was to only be interested in what they could learn.

They weren't routinely assimilating that we know of. We only saw them twice up to that point in time. We know that the Borg were assimilating long before they ever decided to grab Picard, so we dismiss their lack of apparent interest in assimilating humanity on the grounds that such is a hasty generalization.

And Q said a lot of things of the Borg that were ambiguous. He claimed Borg didn't have gender: "Not a he, not a she..." I'd say Seven is *definitely* a woman, and Hugh was male. Perhaps we should take his condescending talk about Borg goals with similar skepticism (read: willingness to interpret with the bulk of evidence from VGR, "FC," and so on).

Q's "not a he, not a she" line might also have been a reference to lack of psychological gender identification in Borg drones, rather than a direct statement regarding their -- ahem -- "equipment."