I feel discriminated against...

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-05-01 07:26am

Admiral Valdemar wrote: Uh, yay?

And as my first act as your new supreme being, I command you all to ridicule unbelievers.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2003-05-01 07:27am

NecronLord wrote:
Admiral Valdemar wrote: Uh, yay?
And as my first act as your new, I command you all to ridicule unbelievers.

We kinda do that anyway, it's fun.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-05-01 07:32am

Yes. But now you can do it and save your soul in the process (*Cough* Yeah, right *Cough*)

Queeb Salaron · Post by **Queeb Salaron** » 2003-05-01 10:33am

This is just ridiculous.

Happy National Prayer Day, everyone.

How ironic would it be if some terrorist organization launched a massive multi-target attack today amidst all this prayer? That'd be God for ya.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-05-01 11:57am

jihaaaaaad! alllahhh akbarrrrr!

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-05-01 12:44pm

Stravo wrote:Free Exercise GAURANTESS that I can worship any religion that I want. It does not allow the Governemnt to RESTRICT religious expression, a pretty fair comment on what the framers think of religion in civil life.

You do not need a "National Prayer Day" to have freedom of religious expression. Declaring a National Prayer Day is a religious endorsement, not a means of protecting your religious freedom.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-05-01 12:45pm

Stravo wrote:By denying National Prayer day the argument could be made that they are violating the Free exercise clause.

How? Was someone infringing on your free prayer rights prior to the establishment of National Prayer Day? Are you unable to pray freely on other days of the year?

That's a really ridiculous claim.

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2003-05-01 01:24pm

Errr.. Then I suppose the 1st of May is not a national holiday in the U.S (workers day, that is, not prayer or related crap) Tough luck.

Me, it's a sunny day and I went biking.

Hendrake · Post by **Hendrake** » 2003-05-01 01:32pm

Colonel Olrik wrote:Errr.. Then I suppose the 1st of May is not a national holiday in the U.S (workers day, that is, not prayer or related crap) Tough luck.

Me, it's a sunny day and I went biking.

You're lucky. It's shitty weather here. Oh, well.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-05-01 01:54pm

Ted C wrote:
Stravo wrote:By denying National Prayer day the argument could be made that they are violating the Free exercise clause.
How? Was someone infringing on your free prayer rights prior to the establishment of National Prayer Day? Are you unable to pray freely on other days of the year?

That's a really ridiculous claim.

Hardly if there's a group that WANTS a National Prayer Day where prayer is ENCOURAGED by the government, not mandated. All it is is the government telling people, hey, today is a good day to pray if you like. Like the National Smoke out, today is a good day to quit smoking. If a group wants that, and there is support for it on a naitonal level, it does not violate the COnsitituion, then they can have it. To deny that same group the right to even ask for a National Prayer Day IS a violation of the Free Exercise clause.

This is a Democarcy and if a majority wants something that does not violate guaranteed rights in the Consistution and in and of itself IS a gauranteed right then they have the power to make it so.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2003-05-01 02:20pm

Stravo wrote:Hardly if there's a group that WANTS a National Prayer Day where prayer is ENCOURAGED by the government, not mandated.

Prayer is not something the government has any legitimate reason to encourage.

Stravo wrote:All it is is the government telling people, hey, today is a good day to pray if you like. Like the National Smoke out, today is a good day to quit smoking.

The government has legitimate reasons to encourage people to stop smoking. Smoking related illnesses are significant burdens on the nation that the government should reduce.

Stravo wrote:If a group wants that, and there is support for it on a naitonal level, it does not violate the COnsitituion, then they can have it.

Sorry, but the Bill of Rights largely exists to protect the rights of minorities and individuals from the tyranny of the majority. No matter how you try to spin it, this National Prayer Day is a government endorsment of religion, something the government is forbidden to do.

Stravo wrote: To deny that same group the right to even ask for a National Prayer Day IS a violation of the Free Exercise clause.

They're free to ask, but the government is not free to grant that request.

Stravo wrote:
This is a Democarcy and if a majority wants something that does not violate guaranteed rights in the Consistution and in and of itself IS a gauranteed right then they have the power to make it so.

No, there are requests the government is forbidden to grant by the Constitution, whether the majority wants them or not.

Post by **Lagmonster** » 2003-05-01 02:24pm

Stravo wrote:Hardly if there's a group that WANTS a National Prayer Day where prayer is ENCOURAGED by the government, not mandated. All it is is the government telling people, hey, today is a good day to pray if you like.

Problem: The government isn't allowed to do that. The Church can name national prayer days all it wants, because that is its job. The government is supposed to not get involved with religion on a public level.

If a group wants that, and there is support for it on a naitonal level, it does not violate the COnsitituion, then they can have it. To deny that same group the right to even ask for a National Prayer Day IS a violation of the Free Exercise clause. This is a Democarcy and if a majority wants something that does not violate guaranteed rights in the Consistution and in and of itself IS a gauranteed right then they have the power to make it so.

Problem: It is not the government's responsibility to tell people when to pray. Thus democratic process does not apply; everyone could ask the government to appoint a national Microsoft Products Are Free day, but you wouldn't get anyone who could pass such a law, nor could you enforce it, because it is attempting to do something outside of the government's power or responsibility. In short, the people are asking the WRONG GROUP to impart such a day. They may ask the government to RECOGNIZE a religious holiday created by the church, but not to CREATE or SPONSOR one.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-05-01 02:27pm

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases ... 913-7.html

How is THIS different than National Prayer Day. Once again, the Government is allowed to support religion and encourage it (why do you think religious insitutions get the right to be not taxed, perform legally binding marriages, etc) As long as it is not called National Christ Day or Natiional Buddha day the rights of the minoroty are protected. They are encouraging that which is firmly allowed in the Constituion as seen in the very money you have in your pocket, our congress opens every session with a prayer from different denominations. To deny religion is part of the government is to be blind to the obvious. What the government cannot do is support or state sponsor a religion but as the Supreme court said, the Government is NOT suipposed to be an enemy of religion.

National Day of Prayer and Remembrance for the Victims Of the Terrorist Attacks on September 11, 2001
By the President of the United States of America
A Proclamation

On Tuesday morning, September 11, 2001, terrorists attacked America in a series of despicable acts of war. They hijacked four passenger jets, crashed two of them into the World Trade Center's twin towers and a third into the Headquarters of the U.S. Department of Defense at the Pentagon, causing great loss of life and tremendous damage. The fourth plane crashed in the Pennsylvania countryside, killing all on board but falling well short of its intended target apparently because of the heroic efforts of passengers on board. This carnage, which caused the collapse of both Trade Center towers and the destruction of part of the Pentagon, killed more than 250 airplane passengers and thousands more on the ground.

Civilized people around the world denounce the evildoers who devised and executed these terrible attacks. Justice demands that those who helped or harbored the terrorists be punished -- and punished severely. The enormity of their evil demands it. We will use all the resources of the United States and our cooperating friends and allies to pursue those responsible for this evil, until justice is done.

We mourn with those who have suffered great and disastrous loss. All our hearts have been seared by the sudden and sense-less taking of innocent lives. We pray for healing and for the strength to serve and encourage one another in hope and faith.

Scripture says: "Blessed are those who mourn for they shall be comforted." I call on every American family and the family of America to observe a National Day of Prayer and Remembrance, honoring the memory of the thousands of victims of these brutal attacks and comforting those who lost loved ones. We will persevere through this national tragedy and personal loss. In time, we will find healing and recovery; and, in the face of all this evil, we remain strong and united, "one Nation under God."

NOW, THEREFORE, I, GEORGE W. BUSH, President of the United States of America, by virtue of the authority vested in me by the Constitution and laws of the United States, do hereby proclaim Friday, September 14, 2001, as a National Day of Prayer and Remembrance for the Victims of the Terrorist Attacks on September 11, 2001. I ask that the people of the United States and places of worship mark this National Day of Prayer and Remembrance with noontime memorial services, the ringing of bells at that hour, and evening candlelight remembrance vigils. I encourage employers to permit their workers time off during the lunch hour to attend the noontime services to pray for our land. I invite the people of the world who share our grief to join us in these solemn observances.

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this thirteenth day of September, in the year of our Lord two thousand one, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and twenty-sixth.

GEORGE W. BUSH

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-05-01 02:30pm

Lagmonster wrote:
Stravo wrote:Hardly if there's a group that WANTS a National Prayer Day where prayer is ENCOURAGED by the government, not mandated. All it is is the government telling people, hey, today is a good day to pray if you like.
Problem: The government isn't allowed to do that. The Church can name national prayer days all it wants, because that is its job. The government is supposed to not get involved with religion on a public level.

If a group wants that, and there is support for it on a naitonal level, it does not violate the COnsitituion, then they can have it. To deny that same group the right to even ask for a National Prayer Day IS a violation of the Free Exercise clause. This is a Democarcy and if a majority wants something that does not violate guaranteed rights in the Consistution and in and of itself IS a gauranteed right then they have the power to make it so.
Problem: It is not the government's responsibility to tell people when to pray. Thus democratic process does not apply; everyone could ask the government to appoint a national Microsoft Products Are Free day, but you wouldn't get anyone who could pass such a law, nor could you enforce it, because it is attempting to do something outside of the government's power or responsibility. In short, the people are asking the WRONG GROUP to impart such a day. They may ask the government to RECOGNIZE a religious holiday created by the church, but not to CREATE or SPONSOR one.

They are NOT SPONSORING a particular faith. THAT is the protection granted every citizen. They ARE sponsoring a religion neutral act and that IS ALLOWED under the Constitution.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-05-01 02:34pm

If I had less scruples, I'd use this to test the Small God Theorem.

In the meantime, I shall offer prays to Bob The Small God, Aphrodite The Goddess Of Kinky Ass Sex, and Ares, God Of Beatdowns.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2003-05-01 02:35pm

Personally i prefer lots of maidens, sex, and phallic poles.

Post by **Coyote** » 2003-05-01 04:35pm

National Prayer Day does not say that any particular religion is held as an example over others or is favored by the gov't. But it does just assume that everyone is a member of some religious group or another. That is a pretty cheeky assumption.

Even though I am religious I don't like the idea of having it placed over someone else's head. But I don't think this is meant as an "attack" on athiests. The people that thought this up (did it say, specifically, it was George Bush's initiative?) probably do not stop to comprehend that there are people out there that are not into the whole religion thing. They think EVERYONE is a part of some belief system or other. I think this is ignorance, not attack.

Now, if they had said it was national "Jesus" day or some such, that would be a First Amendment violation.

I mean, it is pretty blatant to have a national holiday mandated in honor of a particulr religious figure... I mean, like, what if they had a day called, uh, "Christ-Mass" or some shortened version and made it obligatory to suspend all gov't activity on that day, under the assumption that everyone cared about or wanted to attend "Christ-Mass"....

(this last part brought to you by the Sarcasm Dept.)

Queeb Salaron · Post by **Queeb Salaron** » 2003-05-01 04:43pm

Rye wrote:Personally i prefer lots of maidens, sex, and phallic poles.

Life would be better if we all worshipped Dionysus.

I've always wanted to go to a Baccanalian orgy.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-05-01 05:02pm

Bush wrote: Scripture says:

Not endorsing any religon? I wonder what scripture he means...

Queeb Salaron · Post by **Queeb Salaron** » 2003-05-01 05:06pm

::Points:: lol. Scripture says nothing.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-05-01 07:41pm

Stravo wrote:http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases ... 913-7.html

How is THIS different than National Prayer Day.

It's not. I didn't like that either. You shouldn't assume that everybody thinks Shrubby's religious prattle was wonderful just because he happened to jam it into a post-9/11 speech.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-05-01 07:42pm

Coyote wrote:I think this is ignorance, not attack.

The effect is the same, and laws are based on actions, not the ignorance of the perpetrators.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2003-05-01 08:47pm

Colonel Olrik wrote:Errr.. Then I suppose the 1st of May is not a national holiday in the U.S (workers day, that is, not prayer or related crap) Tough luck.

Me, it's a sunny day and I went biking.

Oh yeah, it's workers day here too! Didn't have to go to work, I also asked tomorrow free

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-05-01 08:53pm

Stravo wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:Bush is a delusional moron awash in fundie land. This is a blatent First Amendment violation.
NO, its not. PLease people, seperation of church and state DOES NOT let me repeat this again for those in teh back row, DOES NOT mean that the governement must actively oppose or be hostile to religion. It means that the governemtn cannot SUPPORT a PARTICULAR religion in other words no state sponsored religion.

Being hostile is not the same as telling us we should, as Americans, pray.

PLease stop thinking that Sepration of church and state means NO to religion.

Freedom from religion. The establishment clause clearly outlines the government has no business framing any sort of worship--exactly what "National Prayer Day" does.

Stravo wrote:They are NOT SPONSORING a particular faith. THAT is the protection granted every citizen. They ARE sponsoring a religion neutral act and that IS ALLOWED under the Constitution.

They are sponsoring theism and religion in general.

Freedom from religion, Stravo. The government does not frame belief systems. Period. The establishment clause is mutated in the form you subscribe to justify the BS of pro "Christian America" idiots.

Darth Wong wrote:
Stravo wrote:http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases ... 913-7.html

How is THIS different than National Prayer Day.
It's not. I didn't like that either. You shouldn't assume that everybody thinks Shrubby's religious prattle was wonderful just because he happened to jam it into a post-9/11 speech.

Exactly. Neither did I like it. Rememberance certainly--but why add to it something that leaves out a lack-of-belief system many Americans subscribe to? Why endorse theism--it brought us the psychotics in the first place.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-05-01 09:00pm

Stravo wrote:
This is a Democarcy and if a majority wants something that does not violate guaranteed rights in the Consistution and in and of itself IS a gauranteed right then they have the power to make it so.

This is a Republic.

The Constitution overrides 100% majority will until an amendment to inact that will is passed.

The First Amendment still says this is BS.