The Empire at Thrawn's time

[Illuminatus Primus]

That's the most pathetic piece of bullshit comparisons and apologistic stammerings I've ever read.

The Empire under Thrawn is not the same thing as a warlord faction--no warlord faction controlled 1/4 of the galaxy and had 1000s of ISDs. The Empire under Thrawn was 1/4 of the galaxy, the Imperial remnants/loyalists in the Deep Core and the ex-Imperial warlords are irrelevent.

Imperial Intelligence is not the same as a military staff.

This is rediculous.

[PainRack]

1.Why not?It suffers from the same inherent limitations as the other warlords do face,even if it consider itself the legitimate government.Like again,the ROC and KMT government in China shortage of trained personnel,allowing for rapid promotion to fill up leadership positions in the army and airforce,plus the limitation of supervision and command&control over all branches of the government/military.

2.Except that Imperial Intelligence also provides military data.Either one considers Imperial Intelligence to be a military branch,thus classifying it as G2,or its under the control of the civilians(interesting considering how military rank is also in Intel) which will make it a branch of the government.


Take your pick.

[Illuminatus Primus]

1.Why not?It suffers from the same inherent limitations as the other warlords do face,even if it consider itself the legitimate government.Like again,the ROC and KMT government in China shortage of trained personnel,allowing for rapid promotion to fill up leadership positions in the army and airforce,plus the limitation of supervision and command&control over all branches of the government/military.

Because it has 1000s of ISDs still and compared to the NR is not very inferior--they afforded shield upgrades for Interceptors universally and a new assault bomber. This is 1/4 of the galaxy--most of the warlords are not an appreciable percentage of galactic territory or resources.

2.Except that Imperial Intelligence also provides military data.Either one considers Imperial Intelligence to be a military branch,thus classifying it as G2,or its under the control of the civilians(interesting considering how military rank is also in Intel) which will make it a branch of the government.

Wall of Ignorance tactics. Hell--examples of stafflessness in the TTT have been shown as have the absurdity thereof--its in this thread.

[Publius]

2.Except that Imperial Intelligence also provides military data.Either one considers Imperial Intelligence to be a military branch,thus classifying it as G2,or its under the control of the civilians(interesting considering how military rank is also in Intel) which will make it a branch of the government.

You bifurcate the issue. The Expanded Universe gives every indication that Imperial Intelligence is a separate branch of the Imperial Armed Services. G-2 and N-2 sections are not separate branches, but rather organic apparatus within Army and Navy staffs (J-2 directorates are analogously organic to joint staffs). To argue that a non-civilian Imperial Intelligence must be G-2 is an argument non sequitur.

Incidentally, it is known that the Imperial Navy had an apparatus called Naval Intelligence, separate and distinct from Imperial Intelligence (mentioned in Shadows of the Empire).

Publius

[Oddity]

SuperSNIP!

Guess I have to do this Wong-style. I simply don't have the time to go through all this, not to mention other people's posts.

Challenge #1: Status of the Imperial government.
The existence of orbital defence batteries or vast ground armies is not necessary to explain certain events in Star Trek. The existence of an Imperial government closely controlled by Thrawn is. It is called to rationalize. Hard to understand?

So, if Thrawn didn’t communicate with his government regularly and kept a solid grip on it, explain to me why no one ever told Thrawn to go fuck himself and disposed of him before he became too popular. Explain why no one ever tried to screw up his campaign by delaying supplies. Explain why Thrawn’s government never gave him any problems.

Challenge #2: Other officers.
In real life modern warfare requires several high-ranking officers under one commander-in-chief. Hard to understand? This make your assumptions that Thrawn either didn’t have any such officers or didn’t communicate with them very often is ridiculous at best, especially since we are talking about front that’s hundreds of lightyears long. No matter Thrawn’s fleet count, the New Republic must have had hundreds, even thousands of warships. Thrawn couldn’t possibly have been present at every battle; therefore it follows that he must have had competent commanders in charge of those battles.

So, if Thrawn didn’t communicate with those officers often, explain why the New Republic was retreating on all fronts, despite fighting nail, tooth and claw. Explain why they never scored one victory of any magnitude until Bilbringi. Explain why the New Republic still lost Corusant afterward.

Challenge #3: Thrawn & strategy.
That Thrawn was an idiot when it came to strategy has to be the silliest of your arguments. And for your stupid ‘rebels are idiots too’-argument to hold water, virtually all officers and government officials in both the Empire and the Republic would have to be idiots. Do I really need to point out what’s wrong with this?

So explain how Thrawn was able to coordinate a galaxy-wide offensive that brought the New Republic down to its knees. Explain how he was able to craft a battle plan that stretched several years into the future, and has been described as ‘astonishingly detailed’. Explain why he was made into a Grand Admiral when Admirals are usually required to make huge strategic decisions.


It seems to me that you are buying into the usual anti-Thrawn argument: “Uh, Thrawn studied art to understand his enemies, that’s stupid. Therefore Thrawn is stupid.” You ignore that Thrawn couldn’t possibly have maintained his war effort without at least a marginally functioning government and dozens, even hundreds of battle fleets following a carefully laid plan. All this in order to keep your pet theory.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

1) Sometimes, in cases like this, we get into "suspension of disbelief" versus rationalization. Should we suspend disbelief and say that there is no evidence, or should we make up the government? Certainly Thrawn seems to at least have some dealing with government, or at least control over strategic production sites and minerals. He dealt with the Ukio government (and probably talked with them later for the food) and they even get Bespin to step up production (P.93, TLC).

I've sometimes noticed that the military and civilian high ranks kinds of mixes together in the Empire. The Emperor commands a bunch of Grand Moffs (probably all dead or Warlord by HTTE,) and the Military High Command (now its equivalent is probably a bunch of Moffs and Admirals) has control over the various Moffs (the Imperial Protector of a sector, with both civilian and military duties.) Who in turn sits on top of a bunch of governors, who may be civilian, but has an Imperial military garrison close by, manned by a Major General (ISB and SWSB) - who has military, research and civilian diplomats and representatives under him.

Just the simple fact he can talk with the Bespin *garrison* to step up production implies he's been talking with the Military Council, who in turn talked with the Moffs, who in turned called Bespin's Governor and the co-located Major General. In effect, he is controlling the Empire's subordinate planets and chatting with their government, at least those that are important to him. Either that or he cut through the chain and just phoned the Moff / governor / General of the Garrison. Either way, he is dealing with the government in some form. Enough to get what he needs anyway - who particularly cares (at least for a while) about getting into touch with the Ministry of Education in a war?

2) Other officers. Well, it depends on how you want to rationalize it. We *certainly* don't see him talking to other Imperial commands. For instance, he never once tried to call in anything like the Black Sword Command (just think what 3 SSDs under Thrawn could do, even if he might be overrated.)
A) Thrawn's attacks gives frontwide attack orders in the same conference he has with the Military High Command, handling his broad strategic needs in one meeting.
B) Thrawn really isn't talking with other commanders. Instead, for his main campaign, he is going for Centers of Gravity - sector "capitals." He gets them, and his influence automatically wins the sector as other people run scared.

He's apparently taking an average of 3-4 sectors every day (TLC P.129.) If we assume those sectors are small in the number of targets, A is still more likely, but B might be possible if the sectors are also under-defended. He has at least 8 Star Destroyers (Chimaera, Death's Head, Judicator, Stormhawk, Nemesis, Inexorable, Bellicose, Relentless)and about 180 Dreadnaughts. Say 160 really free. Enemy planet defenders seem limited to Carracks (HTTE) or under. So suppose a fast sweep with attack lines of Dreadnaughts threatening planetary bombardment on weakly defended planets to force their surrender, Star Destroyers on 8 more heavily defended, and a full assault with the whole fleet on the few most important targets. Given a weak defense, they might just be able to pull it off in some sectors.

Maybe... but A is more likely, especially since he's probably talking with the military already just to arrange his supplies. No point in not asking them to provide some help. It'll be nice if Zahn wasn't so minimalistic and let us actually SEE him talking to other fleet commanders... or the Military Council.

What I really mind most is that his CLOSE staff never showed up. I can buy his negotiations with the Imperial government pushed to the sidelines. I can buy the same for the other Group and Fleet level commanders. But Even *General* Covell (probably no more than a Corps commander) had his "aides" (TLC, P.216) to help him. General Drost also has a "headquarters," which *implies* a staff in that headquarters. Thrawn, on the other hand, has *no one* but line commanders (Captains and some kind of general.) So his ship captains have to do an inordinate amount of work. Whatever duties a staff does in the Imperial military, Thrawn should at least be talking with his adjutant, which is at least a Line Captain, and not Captain Pellaeon.

3) Thrawn's brilliance. Yes, he's a brilliant man. But one does have to admit many of his plans seem to be narrow-tolerance. Take that first battle in HTTE. Pellaeon thinks they couldn't win conventionally (of course, maybe he's just a wimp) so he tries to retreat. Thrawn deduces that the enemy commander is Elomin and plays some kind of trick that seemed normally easily countered, but worked because of the Elomin commander's psychological blind spot. Fine. I couldn't help thinking, though, what if the Elomin had another species as his advisor or even just as the ship's captain, and he says, "Hey, sir. Not so hasty. It is actually a pretty conventional maneuver overall. NOBODY tries this to counter, and it just makes us vulnerable. I suggest doing this to counter..." Maybe Thrawn would win in the end, but that part of the plan really hangs on a thread.

And one couldn't help but think that the Bilbringi plan could have been more "solid." The sudden appearance of a second force in the rear is a contingency that should have been calculated more fully. Thrawn should be coolly ordering his contingency plan into action upon hearing of the intruders, and smoothly redeployed in such a way even Pellaeon could have finished the battle after he got assassinated. Thrawn might be able to repair the plan if he were still alive, but...