Magog worldship vs Death Star

[omegaLancer]

I cannot see that PSP is very fast.. NO way can it match the speed of a CW KE missile..especially if it packing the mass of a minor planet.

unless fired at a very short range ( a couple of light seconds) it should easily be avoided, even from as something as ponderous as a DS...

The fact is that even if the DS was restricted to one shot from it Super laser per day, the effect of a single planet exploding in the Magog world ship should rip it apart.. Unless the Spirit of the Abyss can absorb the super laser energy like it did the energy of the novaing sun during the attack by the Andromeda...

On the other hand the psp, if they behavior just like minature black hole should easily rip thru the shield of the death star ( the Vong uses the Basal generated Blackhole to drain shields) and be attracted to the the gravity field of the DS hypermass and plunge in to the core and Hypermass enerator of the death star....

Whether the Hypermass reactor can consume PSPs is a question.. The other question is whether the DS tractor rays can be used to deflect the PSP particles..

Another question is whether the DS is equiped with the gravity repulsor that other SW ships have, if so it very likely that it can it use that to repel psp particles or move it self out of the path of oncoming PSP..

So many question such a battle would answer...

[Connor MacLeod]

I believe the point is the Andromeda didn't absorb the planet-destroying energies. The PSP's went through the Andromeda like a bullet through a pile of foam. Virtually, none of its energy was absorbed.

When it faced PSPs, yes. But I was talking about the drones. It should have taken a fraction of the energy possessed in a PSP to destroy them, and it should have just passed through, if it had as much KE as often claimed.

The Andromeda opened a slipstream portal to divert the PSP's away from the planet dispite creating enough force to cause planetary upheavel. I doubt they would take such a drastic measure in using missiles was an option.

They didn't use missiles because:

1.) According to dylan (IIRC) they were out of defensive missile range.

2.) Their OM's and attack drones were already committed to another target (the basilisk). Prior to Firing, Andromeda said that was their entire payload (at the moment, not their entire capacity)

Thus, the whole Slipstream portal thing was a last-resort tactic.

[Mr Bean]

A better match up would be the Expermental and never Built Pulsar Station mentioned in Issards Revenge would contained Superlasers that could be fire at 100% Full Strenght every mintue and be enough to destroy an Eclipse class ship in a single shot and had tons rather than just one beam all over the surface, NTM Tons of Gravity well projectors


By quick scalling the superlasers on it would be enough to probable be called *State kills rather than the Eclipse Land-Mass Killers or the Higher Planet Breakers


And those walkways look awful vuranble to such and a attack NTM the Plusars agility could let it sweep away the surface defenses

[omegaLancer]

The death star is armed with tons of turbo lasers, what would be the effected of a mass bombament after firing the turbo laser.. it doubt after absorbing a Super laser blast that the Spirit of the Abyss would be in condition to stop a rain of 1000's of Turbo laser blast per second...

[Renewed_Valour1]

The Death Star dies a quick death at the hand of swarmships launched from the MWS. That thing could literally carry 100s of PSP armed swarmships.

What is this... Bizzaro World? Up is down down is up and rules of Cannon are exact opposite of the norm?

Yes. The writers and science advisor have at several points said that the visuals are one of the lowest forms of canon for Andromeda. I think the ranking is as follows dialogue, All Systems, other official sites, writer/Science Advisor statements, and then visuals.


For those arguing we have canon information saying that PSPs have the mass of a small planet. Please note the "it goes through you with the mass of a small planet". For those who are wondering a PSP on average is fired at around 50 PSL.

PSP Entry:
Official Seamus Harper Site
http://66.113.187.121/interst_gadg2.html

Point Singularity Projector (PSP)
As if the wall walking thing wasn't scary enough, this was downright terrifying. In the course of tangling with Jeger's ship, we got hit by a bullet from a Point Singularity Projector (PSP). What's a PSP, you ask? It's basically a gun that fires tiny black holes at its target. The point singularity has a tiny Swarzschild radius -- a few centimeters, at most -- but it goes through you with the mass of a small planet. Ouch!

The energy requirements to create an artificial singularity and then push it toward a target at a decent percentage of light speed are simply staggering. My working theory is that the PSP manages to "cheat" the energy requirements somehow -- maybe by folding space using some method we haven't seen yet. But it's all speculation at this point, because the closest we've come to an actual PSP is getting a point singularity drilled through our hull.

In any event, whoever gave this stuff to Jeger (we don¹t know, but I'll bet they're connected to the human lava lamp we saw in the Brandenberg Tor file) has access to technology that's centuries beyond what the Commonwealth had in its heyday. Which scares the hell out of me, but more to the point, makes me want some of my own.

[Connor MacLeod]

Sounds pretty much like how I guessed, at least regarding the whole "psp creation" bit.

As for the DS vs MWS, I already stressed it depends on certain factors:

1.) will one SL blast be enough? Or will it require bombardment by TLs as well.. ? Its possible the DS may nto be able to safely (or easily) hurt the worldship.

2.)the gravity of a PSP is likely strong enough to "absorb" SW shields, much as Dovin Basals do. Likewise, however, the SW side may be able to nullify at least the gravitic effect (but not the kinetic effect, which should be handled by shields) in much the same fashion that dovin basals are nullified. Also swarmships are likely nto going to be able to withstand a single TL bolt, assuming it hits (they ARE quite a bit more agile though, but not neccesarily impossible to hit.) And PSP's are going to have a shorter potential range compared to TLs, since they move about 50% slower. Mass numbers of swarmships, or of PSPs armed on the MWS, might compensate, if they can get the DS in range (and the swarmships at least can stay in range.)

Assuming that the DS cannoit nullify the PSP gravitational effects, the battle would most probably be in the favor of the Magog. Without it, the DS MIGHT stand a chance, but I sincerely doubt they could actually destroy the worldship in a short amount of time.

[His Divine Shadow]

The Death Star dies a quick death at the hand of swarmships launched from the MWS. That thing could literally carry 100s of PSP armed swarmships.

Oh I doubt that, the PSP's collateral damage will so small I doubt it'll suffice with even just a hundred shots, and even then, their shots travel at .5C whilst the DS SL and it's million turbolasers or so travels at C.
Instant range advantage for them, they will have no problem beating the crap out of those swarmships, wich blows big time anyway.

[Renewed_Valour1]

Oh I doubt that, the PSP's collateral damage will so small I doubt it'll suffice with even just a hundred shots, .

The bigger you are the harder you fall from a PSP hit. A PSP will just punch a whole through the Andromeda and keep going. Against a planet though it cracks it wide open. The Death Star has a lot more in common with a planet than the Andromeda. The Death Star also doesn't have any AG fields to keep it from being affected as much by the gravity of the PSP unlike the Andromeda.

Oh and that big disk on the surface of the Death Star makes a nice bullseye to put a PSP right in…

And even then, their shots travel at .5C whilst the DS SL and it's million turbolasers or so travels at C. Instant range advantage for them, they will have no problem beating the crap out of those swarmships, wich blows big time anyway.

We've seen PSPs place close enough to the Andromeda that the tidal forces were sufficient enough to damage her in the Widening Gyre. One in fact passed between her slipstream runners. This all while the Andromeda was evading at a range beyond which she could return fire with her missiles. So that would make it around 8 light minutes at the minimum end and 24 at the max. Now you are really smoking something if you think the Death Star can dodge PSPs better than the Andromeda…

As for the swarmships; we've seen what type of success the Death Star has against fighters. Your average swarmships in terms of maneuverability are either equal to or many times greater than a Star Wars fighter. These things manage to attach themselves to the hulls of High Guard ships maneuvering at 45 PSL or more. We've never seen anything close to that ability from fighters in Star Wars.

[omegaLancer]

The fact is that there no proof that Magog swarm ship are more manuevable than Tie fighters ( or even fasters, since the only stat we have are of theHigh guard ships).. The only gauge of their capabitilies was in against a distracted Andromeda, who did not put up at kind of resistant to their attacks..

The fact is that the ECM field around the DS effects the moment of fighters as was stated in the Rebel briefing...So a battle of tie fighter vs Magog Swarm ships would be unknown..

I have to agree that PSP would most likily punch thru the Death star shield.. But I you are wrong about the Death star having no AG fields.. All star war ship have AG technology, inertial dampers and anti grav tech..

Andromeda surived because the PSP rounds went right thru her, slowing PSP rounds via AG field would be a bad move.. If any PSP round had been stop or slow greater damage would have occur, since thii allows the PSP (Blackhole) to feed off the the Andromeda...

The fact is that the TL and SL have ranges in the light minutes, the MWS is a fairliy stationary target and would be toasted by a long range fire of the DS super laser and turbo laser batteries. PSP would have no range limitation but would require several minutes to strike the DS, allowing the DS plenty of time to to jump away...

[Connor MacLeod]

The bigger you are the harder you fall from a PSP hit. A PSP will just punch a whole through the Andromeda and keep going. Against a planet though it cracks it wide open.

Yes, which Beka stated in "All too Human". But IIRC the Basilisk fired several shots (half a dozen or so) at the planet. Are we sure it only takes one to "Crack" a planet, or even destroy it?

The Death Star has a lot more in common with a planet than the Andromeda. The Death Star also doesn't have any AG fields to keep it from being affected as much by the gravity of the PSP unlike the Andromeda.

Not neccesarily. While the DS is certainly Far more massive than a single warship, its still many orders of magnitude less massive than an Earthlike planet.

Also, I just pointed out that the DS HAS AG tech, that can potentially neutralize the gravitic effects of PSP's. Dovin basals generate black hole-strength gravity wells, and SW ships use their inertial compensators to block Vong gravity effects (since those dovin basals can suck away their shields). ITs quite possible they can partially if not completely nullify the gravitic effects of a PSP.

Of course, PSPs are obviously not massless, and at .5c they must have some KE effect.

We've seen PSPs place close enough to the Andromeda that the tidal forces were sufficient enough to damage her in the Widening Gyre. One in fact passed between her slipstream runners. This all while the Andromeda was evading at a range beyond which she could return fire with her missiles. So that would make it around 8 light minutes at the minimum end and 24 at the max. Now you are really smoking something if you think the Death Star can dodge PSPs better than the Andromeda…

Uh. The Andromeda couldn't dodge something that took over 16 minutes at least, upwards to nearly an hour to reach it? That doesn't say much about their reaction times, Valor.

So either the range isn't right, or the situation had mitigating circumstances. Given half an hour of response time, the death star COULD dodge PSP's. So could the Andromeda, quite eaisly given tis agility. PSP's aren't guided weapons, and light-minute ranges are the reason guided weapons are used, remember?

As for the swarmships; we've seen what type of success the Death Star has against fighters. Your average swarmships in terms of maneuverability are either equal to or many times greater than a Star Wars fighter. These things manage to attach themselves to the hulls of High Guard ships maneuvering at 45 PSL or more. We've never seen anything close to that ability from fighters in Star Wars.

While the swarmships undoubtably hold a speed/agility advantage, the analogy between the fighters doesn't neccesarily hold. Thney may be able to PSP the ship to death (assuming that the gravity cannot be compensated for) but they sure as hell wont hav eany chance of braeching the shields.

TLs would probably have a hard time nailing the swarmships even at one light second, much less two, but closer than say, a few thousand km to give them tracking problems might not be as effective as you think. For one thing, the closer you are, the slower reaction tiems are going to be (unless Swarm ships are AI piloted - do the Magog even have AI's) EW and jamming/distortion will make this even harder, so to prevent collisions acceleration rates will be lower. And also remember that swarmships are also significantly larger targets than fighters

Odds are the swarmships would hold at 2-3 light seconds or so,using their superior speed to make tracking dififcult and keeping the DS in optimal range, while bombarding it with PSPs. At that range, the DS shouldn't be able to dodge (its not that agile.. few hundred G's at best, and its a BIG target even then.. evasion is simply not an option), while at 2-3 LS, TL should be easy enough to avoid.

The World ship may be a different case. Certaionly its PSP defenses would help if the DS is within range.. but would the DS neccesarily have to engage it within trange of ITS weapons? To know this we'd have to have an idea of the accelerative capabilities of the world ship, and its size. If its relatively slow, or is unable to quickly move its bulk out of the way, the DS may be able to engage it from beyond the range of its own weapons safely (unless it can saturate local space around the DS with a tremendous volume of PSPfire) Regardless, the best defense and offense for the MWS will be its swarm ships.

[Connor MacLeod]

The fact is that there no proof that Magog swarm ship are more manuevable than Tie fighters ( or even fasters, since the only stat we have are of theHigh guard ships).. The only gauge of their capabitilies was in against a distracted Andromeda, who did not put up at kind of resistant to their attacks..

Agility such as it is is more of a matter of acceleration time vs deceleration time. AT comparable speeds, Andromeda ships will probably out-decelerate/accelerate SW ships, even the smaller ones. But depending on the distances involved, even a slight acceleration change can be as effective as a tremendous one. But the acceleration advantage more than likely remains in Andromeda's favor, at least in capital ship battles (this is counter-balanced by teh tactical FTL advantages on SW's side..ie microjumping)

The fact is that the ECM field around the DS effects the moment of fighters as was stated in the Rebel briefing...So a battle of tie fighter vs Magog Swarm ships would be unknown..

Not neccsarily. I suspect the swarm ship has an acceleration advantage.. but the question is, does it have point defense or other weapons? If so, how strong, and how many? TIEs weapons are at least kiloton range, and standa fair chance of inflicting some damage, depending on if they hit. I would rate TIEs a lesser threat to swarm ships than TL batteries though.

ECM will help against active and passive scanning, but the DS is a large enough target that Magog should be able to visually target with at least a mdest degree of accuracy. Moreso than TLs trying to hit the swarm ships visually.

I have to agree that PSP would most likily punch thru the Death star shield.. But I you are wrong about the Death star having no AG fields.. All star war ship have AG technology, inertial dampers and anti grav tech..

Agreed, and as with the Yuuzhan Vong, we've seen their effectiveness (as well as from the Marvel Comics) - the question is simply how effective the nullificatino is going to be.

Andromeda surived because the PSP rounds went right thru her, slowing PSP rounds via AG field would be a bad move.. If any PSP round had been stop or slow greater damage would have occur, since thii allows the PSP (Blackhole) to feed off the the Andromeda...

Not neccesarily. Its not so much the kinetic effect as the gravitational effects that make the PSP so dangerous. As Beka said in "All to Human" larger targets take more damage. While certainly not a planet, the DS is going to take more damage than the Andromeda because it is significantly more massive. Slowing the PSP down by AG field would only reduce the kinetic effect, not the gravitic one.

The fact is that the TL and SL have ranges in the light minutes, the MWS is a fairliy stationary target and would be toasted by a long range fire of the DS super laser and turbo laser batteries. PSP would have no range limitation but would require several minutes to strike the DS, allowing the DS plenty of time to to jump away...

No doubt that the MWS is larger, but its also got more empty space (volume vs size wise) than the DS. I'm also uncertain of its accelerative capabilities. Until such matters aer clarified, i'm not content on making judgements about the DS's exact range capabilitie against the worldship.)

Microjumping might be possible, depending on the presences of gravity wells (which is another problem - what sort of gravity well with the worldship throw out? will it cause microjumping problems?

Also, since the superlaser can only fire once at full power, I suspect it would take quite a long time by TLs alone to destroy the MWS...

[omegaLancer]

The fact is Connor, we known how fast the Common wealth ships are but you did not answer what is known about the Magog swarm ship..

As for Tie fighter laser not being powerful enought to destroy a Swam ship.. If in the Widing Grye, the Planetary defensive robots, arm with look to be Gatling guns were able to rebel the Magog swarm ships attracted to the andromeda, forcing them to retreat, the kiloton range lasers that tie fighter carry would be more than enought.. True fire arms would advance greatly but still a bullet no matter what caliber or type would not be equal to the power of a tactical nuke...

As a matter of fact fullerene, while being a a material with massive tensil strength is highily vulentible to laser. As laser are how fullerene and other form of Carbon are presentily used in the manufacting and shaping of this material..

Magog tactics seem to be close with the enemy and board..and any PSP cannons seem to be mounted on the World ship or vessels supply to the SOA agents...And if this the case Tie fighter should be able to engage and destroy the Magog ships in mass..

It very likily the vessels we saw were not swarm ship at all, but some form of assault shuttle, and are carried aboard the swarm ships. I find this very likily since in " Home Fires" four swarm ship was enought to scare an entire system that was equiped with several squadrons of CW slip fighters..

[Renewed_Valour1]

Yes, which Beka stated in "All too Human". But IIRC the Basilisk fired several shots (half a dozen or so) at the planet. Are we sure it only takes one to "Crack" a planet, or even destroy it?

Something I found on Slipstream. I'd say they expected the Andromeda to attempt to stop the PSPs somehow and put more on target just in case.

The PSP mass is about that of a planet, and yes that's not very specific because it varies bases on what is firing it. The PSP itself is very small about the 1to 2 cm dia (by size I mean 2 times the Schwarzschild radius). The effects are large because of the massive momentum that transfers partially to a ship becomes a massive shockwave as the PSP hits things and passes right through them and on into space.

The PSP is going about 50% c. It has to go that fast in order to have a chance of hitting a ship which will otherwise just dodge out of the way.

Against a planet (or moon) you can fire the PSP much slower, planets don't dodge. A slow moving PSP and a planet with be gravitationally captured in each other's orbit. With an PSP orbital perigee less than the planet's radius the PSP will slowly eat the planet. Thus no more planet.

The fact is that there no proof that Magog swarm ship are more manuevable than Tie fighters ( or even fasters, since the only stat we have are of the High guard ships).. .

If Magog Swarmships are able to catch and board maneuvering High Guard ships they have to be more maneuverable than your average High Guard vessel. In "Home Fires" 4 Magog Swarmships were sufficient to put an entire system into a panic. A system that had several squadrons of Shrike fighters with megaton level firepower figured they had no chance of fighting them off. That either implied that Magog ships are maneuverable enough to dogfight with Shrike fighters or they have heavy enough point defense to handle mass attacks by Shrikes.

In case you don't know a single Shrike in faster, more heavily armed, accelerates quicker, maneuverable, and has a performance edge on the Tie in every area nearly. If a swarmship has Shrikes tha badly outgunned then Ties will live up to their names as fodder.

the MWS is a fairliy stationary target and would be toasted by a long range fire of the DS super laser and turbo laser batteries..

We have no idea how maneuverable to MWS is


If all else fails a ship could just eject their slipstream core at the Death Star. All they have to do is get it somewhere near the Death Star and the portals riptide would tear it apart or haul it into slipstream.

[omegaLancer]

Problem with your agruement there is no proof, either written or on any of the episodes... The only magog combat we have seen is the boarding action against a fairly crippled Andromeda..

For all we know the Magog swarm ship, uses the tactics of over whelming numbers to catch and board... Until next season this is up in the air.. As I said before the believe the fairily smalls vessel that we seen attacking the Andromeda may not be Swarm ships but a type of assault shuttle....

[Crossover_Maniac]

Also, I just pointed out that the DS HAS AG tech, that can potentially neutralize the gravitic effects of PSP's. Dovin basals generate black hole-strength gravity wells, and SW ships use their inertial compensators to block Vong gravity effects (since those dovin basals can suck away their shields). ITs quite possible they can partially if not completely nullify the gravitic effects of a PSP.

Of course, PSPs are obviously not massless, and at .5c they must have some KE effect.

First off, has the Vong ever fired one of their Dovin basals at a ship at 0.5 c. Secondly, PSP's has some KE effects. The PSP's are several centimeters in diameter. If the radius of the PSP was 2 cm, that would mean it has a mass of 2E25 kg (3 times the mass of earth). Now, take that an accelerate it at 1.5E8 m/s, you have 2.5E41 joules of energy or 2,500 times the KE of the Death Star shot. Also, all of this energy is concentrated in a point 4 cm in diameter. I say the PSP's goes through the DS's shields like a bullet through paper.

[Connor MacLeod]

[quote="Renewed_Valour1
Something I found on Slipstream. I'd say they expected the Andromeda to attempt to stop the PSPs somehow and put more on target just in case.
[/quote]

Possibly. As I mentioned, Dylan seemed to imply their missiles would have been capable of stopping them, had they either been in range for Defensive missile fire, or hadn't used their entire offensive payload.

Of course, this begs the question not only how many missiles (or equivalent mass in missiles) it takes to stop a PSP, as well as whether or not the basilisk fired enough to saturate the Andromeda's PD capability had they been able to fire (I think the answer is probably no).

Regarding Paul's quote:

The PSP mass is about that of a planet, and yes that's not very specific because it varies bases on what is firing it. The PSP itself is very small about the 1to 2 cm dia (by size I mean 2 times the Schwarzschild radius). The effects are large because of the massive momentum that transfers partially to a ship becomes a massive shockwave as the PSP hits things and passes right through them and on into space.

Thats still the whole problem. I don't get this "mass of the planet" bit. Its obvious (for the previously stated reasons) that its not literal mass. Whatever gravitic "trick" is used to create the PSP seems to simulate the mass of a planet. This isn't unprecedented: AG tech seems to be able to rather easily "adjust" the apparent mass of a ship without really altering it. IIRC pre-crash the slipstreambbs had quotes where the AG fields reduced the Andromeda's effective mass to something like a few grams (or a few hundred grams) rather than a hundred thousand tons (a reduction of like over a billion times), yet the ship can impact at 45 PSL with the KE of a 100,000 ton ship.

Its quite possible the opposite effect can be created as well (increasing the apparent mass of an object without really altering its mass.) I belieev this is best shown in the AG Mass packets the Knights of Genetic Purity and Pyrians use, correct?

His quote confirms that the PSP DOES have some mass though, probably the exotic matter used to create/manipulate any gravity fields.

Interestingly enough, his quote also seems to infer that the "mass" depends on teh ship firing it.

The PSP is going about 50% c. It has to go that fast in order to have a chance of hitting a ship which will otherwise just dodge out of the way.

Interesting. This suggests its possibly difficult to acceelrate a PSP faster than .5c Perhaps they are far more massive (exotic-matter wise) than any missile the Andromeda could employ?

Against a planet (or moon) you can fire the PSP much slower, planets don't dodge. A slow moving PSP and a planet with be gravitationally captured in each other's orbit. With an PSP orbital perigee less than the planet's radius the PSP will slowly eat the planet. Thus no more planet.

Interesting. This seems to suggest that speed has a negative effect on damage potential for a PSP. This would seem to argue against the fact that a PSP is a primarily KE damage weapon, or even significantly one. It suggests that the most damage done to a planet (and probably any target it comes into contact with) is more by the "black hole" effect of the weapon rather than the KE of the weapon - which meshes with other statmeents I've seen on slipstreambbs as well (if memory serves, whcih it usually does). If the PSP hit at the KE level some have inferred it has, the planet would shatter first from that much energy hitting it (I believe - it might just punch through tho). Paul's quote seems to indicate it takes some time to destroy a planet via PSP (since it "eats" the planet)

This also explains why bigger targets take more damage, and also why PSP's punch through startships (the PSP isn't in contact long enough to do any damage. Drones may be small enough to be swallowed whole, or maybe they, like missiles, can "intercept" PSPs and stop them.)

If Magog Swarmships are able to catch and board maneuvering High Guard ships they have to be more maneuverable than your average High Guard vessel. In "Home Fires" 4 Magog Swarmships were sufficient to put an entire system into a panic. A system that had several squadrons of Shrike fighters with megaton level firepower figured they had no chance of fighting them off. That either implied that Magog ships are maneuverable enough to dogfight with Shrike fighters or they have heavy enough point defense to handle mass attacks by Shrikes.

I agree. The swarmships would probably be at least as agile as the Maru, if not warships (they'd probably have to be to be viable in combat without PSP's) ,which means that regardless the odds are that they'll have at least an order of magnitude if not two (but not more than that) greater acceleration than any SW ship.

I would point out tho that if they have anti-fighter defenses, they need not be much. PDL's are megawatt range IIRC, and are considered not only antimissiel but antifighter defense (as well as supplementary antiship weapons - perhaps to strip away visible weapons ports, sensor or comm equipment, manuvering jets, missile tubes, etc. - "precision damage") This infers that it doesn't take much to damage or destroy a fighter (assuming of course you can hit it.)

In case you don't know a single Shrike in faster, more heavily armed, accelerates quicker, maneuverable, and has a performance edge on the Tie in every area nearly. If a swarmship has Shrikes tha badly outgunned then Ties will live up to their names as fodder.

I don't think the TIE is outclassed in EVERY area... Its doubtless got greater acceleration, and the missiles would certainly be enough to destroy any TIE in a single hit... but PDLs suggest they aren't neccesarily as durable as a TIE, and TIEs do have FTL sensor capability (Ref: TIE Fighter Pocket Manual by David West Reynolds).

I'm curious whether or not the AP guns the Shrike carries are equal to those on capital ships, and if so, how do we know this? (and if it is,they certianly cannot carry as much AP as capital ships, which will put a inverse relationship on the # of shots it can fire and the damage per shot, etc.)

We have no idea how maneuverable to MWS is

Agreed. the "scalable mass" aspect of AG fields make it entirely possible the MWS is highly agile... but I dont think it probably is (its still a big target anyhow). IMHO its not really a matter of range but of firepower. The SL can only (realistically) be used on max power once per day.. (it could probably be tuned down to simply render the planet uninhabitalbe in a single shot perhaps, but there's no way of knowing how many of these shots it could make.. no more than one per minute, and thats' generous becasue tahts the refire rate against capital ships..) Which leaves the DS to inflict damage via TLs. Given the nature of the MWS, we're probably talking the equivalent of multiple BDZ's (depending on how many planets the MWS composes of -any idea?) - which infers that it could take hours to "destroy" it.

If all else fails a ship could just eject their slipstream core at the Death Star. All they have to do is get it somewhere near the Death Star and the portals riptide would tear it apart or haul it into slipstream.

This does beg the question of how fast a slipstream core can be fired. If it IS, the obvious countermeasure is to microjump away (or hyper out) unless the MWS can somehow pin the DS to a gravity well.
Its possible (though possibly remote) that the DS could simply dodge it if its moving slow enough or if the range is great enough.

[Connor MacLeod]

First off, has the Vong ever fired one of their Dovin basals at a ship at 0.5 c.

Irrelevant. The IC trick would be used to nullify the gravitational effect only. The KE effect of the mass moving at .5c would be subject to the shielding then however much it is. The velocity has no impact on the nullification or limiting of a PSP's gravitational effects.

Secondly, PSP's has some KE effects. The PSP's are several centimeters in diameter. If the radius of the PSP was 2 cm, that would mean it has a mass of 2E25 kg (3 times the mass of earth). Now, take that an accelerate it at 1.5E8 m/s, you have 2.5E41 joules of energy or 2,500 times the KE of the Death Star shot.

Really.. .and where is all this hypothetical mass coming from? Are all swarm ships carrying spare neutronium in their ammo magazines or something? As I pointed out before, the "mass" of a PSP can not be literal mass at all, as Andromeda ships typically do not weigh as much as planets, nor do they have any sort of "energy to matter conversion" technology that I am aware of that would allow spontaneous creation of said mass. Thus, whatever KE it has is not NEARLY as high as you're inferring.

Also, if you would read the quote from Paul Woodmansee that Renewed Valor was so kind enough to provide, you'd note that PSP's do not appear to immedately shatter planets with a stupendous KE impactor - they slowly "eat" a planet... If the PSP hit with that much KE, the planet would be very likely be shattered instantly into many pieces - there wouldn't be time to "eat" it.

In fact speed is detrimental to the damage a PSP can do - slower PSP's do more damage. You are also ignoring the fact Beka clearly indicated in "All Too Human" that size of a target has an effect on its destructive capabilities. Even a DS's mass pales in comparison to that of an Earthlike planet.

Even if we are to assume that a PSP can possess this much KE, as Paul's quote indicates, at .5c the PSP would only be in contact with the DS for a tiny fraction of a second (about a thousandth of a second).. most of the energy would simply "pass through" as it punched through the vessel, much as it does with the Andromeda when it is hit by PSP fire.

And finally, I have repeatedly stated I believe that the PSP has SOME KE as well, since it is clearly not massless. I simply do not think it is quite as great as you repeatedly infer.

Also, all of this energy is concentrated in a point 4 cm in diameter. I say the PSP's goes through the DS's shields like a bullet through paper.

I already said this, if you bothered to read my responses. But its not because of this nonexistent level of KE you insist on giving the PSP - its because of the extreme gravitational strength of the PSP. And if that were the case, the obvious countermeasure to attempt is to see if teh Inertial dampers/accel compensators on the DS could somehow reduce or nullify the gravitational forces of the PSP, much as they do against dovin basals.

[Crossover_Maniac]

First off, has the Vong ever fired one of their Dovin basals at a ship at 0.5 c.

Irrelevant. The IC trick would be used to nullify the gravitational effect only. The KE effect of the mass moving at .5c would be subject to the shielding then however much it is. The velocity has no impact on the nullification or limiting of a PSP's gravitational effects.

I hope don't expect the same ships that took a beating from the Hoth asteroid to stop a projectile with the mass of a planet compacted in a ball a centimeter in diameter with their shields.

Secondly, PSP's has some KE effects. The PSP's are several centimeters in diameter. If the radius of the PSP was 2 cm, that would mean it has a mass of 2E25 kg (3 times the mass of earth). Now, take that an accelerate it at 1.5E8 m/s, you have 2.5E41 joules of energy or 2,500 times the KE of the Death Star shot.

Really.. .and where is all this hypothetical mass coming from? Are all swarm ships carrying spare neutronium in their ammo magazines or something?[/quote]

Probably. Their AG fields probably lowers their mass to zero.

As I pointed out before, the "mass" of a PSP can not be literal mass at all, as Andromeda ships typically do not weigh as much as planets, nor do they have any sort of "energy to matter conversion" technology that I am aware of that would allow spontaneous creation of said mass. Thus, whatever KE it has is not NEARLY as high as you're inferring.

Oh, is this the Warsie argument that whatever in the show isn't really true unless it benefits SW. Like turbolasers aren't really lasers and don't show the characteristics of lasers such as traveling at c, unless it benefits them in a fight like with a ship that can use its AG fields can shield against sublight speed particles with mass then, all of a sudden, the turbolasers are back to being lasers again. Also, magic lasers that massless particles can decay and create a flak burst effect even though massless particles can not decay. Now, 'mass' isn't really mass. Arguing over the definition of common words like 'is' may have saved Bill Clinton from being removed from office, but it's not saving the DS from the PSP's.

Also, if you would read the quote from Paul Woodmansee that Renewed Valor was so kind enough to provide, you'd note that PSP's do not appear to immedately shatter planets with a stupendous KE impactor - they slowly "eat" a planet... If the PSP hit with that much KE, the planet would be very likely be shattered instantly into many pieces - there wouldn't be time to "eat" it.

More likely punch through and keep going imparting some of its KE into it.

In fact speed is detrimental to the damage a PSP can do - slower PSP's do more damage. You are also ignoring the fact Beka clearly indicated in "All Too Human" that size of a target has an effect on its destructive capabilities. Even a DS's mass pales in comparison to that of an Earthlike planet.

It still far more than the Andromeda, and we know what happened to the Andromeda when it was hit by several PSP's.

Even if we are to assume that a PSP can possess this much KE, as Paul's quote indicates, at .5c the PSP would only be in contact with the DS for a tiny fraction of a second (about a thousandth of a second).. most of the energy would simply "pass through" as it punched through the vessel, much as it does with the Andromeda when it is hit by PSP fire.

Then, they can shoot the slower ones. Oh, wait, I forgot. Remember what happened to the DS when someone shot a proton torpedo into main reactor. Imagine the same thing happening when a few PSP's tunnel through their ship.

And finally, I have repeatedly stated I believe that the PSP has SOME KE as well, since it is clearly not massless. I simply do not think it is quite as great as you repeatedly infer.

1). You can't get a event horizon of several centimeters in diameter without it having the mass of a planet. That isn't opinion, that physics.

2). If this debate is going to be decided by saying "I simply do not think..." about canon information then I simply do not think turbolaser bolts carry 200 gigatons worth of energy. There, I've now depowered all ISD's in the SW-verse.

Also, all of this energy is concentrated in a point 4 cm in diameter. I say the PSP's goes through the DS's shields like a bullet through paper.

I already said this, if you bothered to read my responses. But its not because of this nonexistent level of KE you insist on giving the PSP - its because of the extreme gravitational strength of the PSP. And if that were the case, the obvious countermeasure to attempt is to see if teh Inertial dampers/accel compensators on the DS could somehow reduce or nullify the gravitational forces of the PSP, much as they do against dovin basals.[/quote]

Against with the Warsie attitude of "I hate the other guy's canon and I'm going to change it to suit my tastes".

[Connor MacLeod]

I hope don't expect the same ships that took a beating from the Hoth asteroid to stop a projectile with the mass of a planet compacted in a ball a centimeter in diameter with their shields.

Are you even BOTHERING to read my posts before replying, or have you somehow adopted the Wall of Ignorance Darkstar uses?

1.) The Hoth event has been dealt with repeatedly, and is furthermore an unquantifiable incident. ATtempting to use it to establish an upper limit on shielding capabilities is futile, as is your attempt to use it to justfiy Andromeda's ability to hurt ISD's.

2.) You further compound your ignorance by ignoring the fact I have SAID repeatedly that the shields will probably not withstand a PSP (due to comparsion of dovin basal effects on shields), even though MY reasons (which have proof, incidentally) are different than yours. The KE effect alone may or may not be enough to overwhelm the shields, but the gravity effect of the PSP (being a black hole) probably is enough to bypass them. Without that gravity effect, the only thing is the KE impact, which cannot be as high as you're claiming, for the reasons I've said before.

3.) You display this unnatural fixation for this "mass of a planet" thing, and you're obviously ignoring all the objections to it because you don't want to give it up. Yet you provide no real proof to back up your claims, much less contradict the quote of Paul Woodmansee regarding PSP's, plus the show-related material I've presented.

Probably. Their AG fields probably lowers their mass to zero.

Gravity does not create mass, mass creates gravity. Any sort of "mass" the AG field gives to a ship (and I've listed quite a few examples myself") is not "real" mass. The AG fields are not magic "energy to matter" converters"

So please provide proof that this "mass" the AG fields "probably" generate is real, live mass.

Oh, is this the Warsie argument that whatever in the show isn't really true unless it benefits SW. Like turbolasers aren't really lasers and don't show the characteristics of lasers such as traveling at c, unless it benefits them in a fight like with a ship that can use its AG fields can shield against sublight speed particles with mass then, all of a sudden, the turbolasers are back to being lasers again.

Wow, a red herring. you're just pulling out ALL the fallacies to win this argument aren't you? You can't bluff your way past on the PSP thing so you start whining about how "unfair" I'm being. This is merely an attack on Warsies in general, and has no relevance to the issue of PSP's. Obviously, you cannot support your position, else you would not have to resort to personal attacks against Warsies.

Also, magic lasers that massless particles can decay and create a flak burst effect even though massless particles can not decay. Now, 'mass' isn't really mass. Arguing over the definition of common words like 'is' may have saved Bill Clinton from being removed from office, but it's not saving the DS from the PSP's.

Again, more irrelevant red-herrings. You never really addressed the point (which was, if you remember, where the PSP gets all this mass from. I asked for proof remember, not ranting tirades about how unfair the Warsies are to you.)

If you cannot provide the proof, I can only conclude you have none, and are simply wasting my time in hopes I'll get bored and go away.

More likely punch through and keep going imparting some of its KE into it.

Even if it imparts a tiny FRACTION of a percentage of that overall KE, its going to be sufficient to destroy the planet when it hits. As you so claimed, the level of energy you argue a PSP has is thousands of times greater than the DS shot, which is in and of itself nearly a million times the energy requirement needed to destroy a planet. My point stands. Paul indicates that it woudl take time for the PSP to destroy the planet, and a slow moving PSP is more effective than a fast-moving one. Therefore the KE cannot be anywhere REMOTELY like what you are claiming.

It still far more than the Andromeda, and we know what happened to the Andromeda when it was hit by several PSP's.

Yes, they punched cleanly through without destroying the ship (both with Jaeger's ship in Harper 2.0, and the season 1 finale). The DS would doubtless take more damage than that because of its mass (assuming all other considerations aren't factors), but this hardly means that its going to be like hititng a planet with PSPs. Simply saying "its bigger than the Andromeda" is meaningless.

Then, they can shoot the slower ones. Oh, wait, I forgot. Remember what happened to the DS when someone shot a proton torpedo into main reactor. Imagine the same thing happening when a few PSP's tunnel through their ship.

The proton torpedo started a chain reaction. Are you saying PSP's are bombs now? Geez, first they're miniature black holes that eat through whatever they contact, then they're giant, planet-shattering kientic impactors, now they're explosive warheads! Wow, these things can do ANYTHING, can't they?

First off, shooting slower ones will simply require getting closer to effectively hit. Secondly, we're still ignoring all the OTHER prior considerations regarding PSP's and potential countermeasures. Third, this assumes you can hit the reactor directly, which is a tiny section of a rather LARGE vessel. That's some accuracy you're claiming (probably going to be supported by some vague reference to the Imperial's inability to hit the slwo moving Falcon or soemthing.) And Fourth, whats to say that the PSP triggers a chain reaction? They seem to "eat" whatever matter they touch, not melt it or vaporize it (at least to my knowledge).

1). You can't get a event horizon of several centimeters in diameter without it having the mass of a planet. That isn't opinion, that physics.

Source? And again, explain how they generate all this mass and where it comes from, and the proof for this.

In real life anyhow, its impossible to our knowledge to generate any sort of gravitational field without a corresponding amount of mass (depending on how strong the gravitational field is.) However, in Sci-Fi, Androemda included, generating strong gravitational fields in the absence of "real" mass is relatively common.

And as we said, AG field tech allows for any mass to simulate a larger or smaller object without affecting its real mass (AG mass packets, the "mass lightening" technology - they allow the ship to be accelerated as if it massed a tiny FRACTION of what it actually does, yet it retains its full, actual mass.)

2). If this debate is going to be decided by saying "I simply do not think..." about canon information then I simply do not think turbolaser bolts carry 200 gigatons worth of energy. There, I've now depowered all ISD's in the SW-verse.

Finally some proof, even if it is proof you've been ignoring everything being said IN this discussion relating to PSP's. Your position is so undermined you're resorting to nitpicking, personal attacks on Warsies, whining about how "unfair" everyone is being. In short, you have no real arguments or proof, and are just hoping to win on sheer bluff.

I really should take that as a concession, though.

Against with the Warsie attitude of "I hate the other guy's canon and I'm going to change it to suit my tastes".

More personal attacks on Warsies and whining about "unfairness". Obviously, I've so thoroughly crushed your arguments you have no hope of winning short of cheating.

[Renewed_Valour1]

Really.. .and where is all this hypothetical mass coming from? Are all swarm ships carrying spare neutronium in their ammo magazines or something? As I pointed out before, the "mass" of a PSP can not be literal mass at all, as Andromeda ships typically do not weigh as much as planets, nor do they have any sort of "energy to matter conversion" technology that I am aware of that would allow spontaneous creation of said mass. Thus, whatever KE it has is not NEARLY as high as you're inferring.

A few comments… We know that ships armed with PSPs must have a very large amount of mass "onboard" of them. The way the Andromeda found Jeger is by tracing the effects his ship's PSP generator has on slipstream. The only way to have that much of an effect on slipstream would be a massive amount of mass at least as much as a large planet or I'd lean toward star or higher. So there is a large amount of extra mass associated with a ship armed with a PSP. So in fact Jeger's ship did mass at the lowest end as much as a planet and high end as much as a star or more. It does back up the fact that Paul said PSPs have the mass of a planet, Harper saying it in Harper 2.0, and the Harper site. The only confliction is Paul saying the fire slower to damage planets. One option might be to post that quote on the BBS and get some clarification from him on it.

The question is how does the ship have that mass without well having that mass. I suppose it could be AH field dampened like CM suggests but that opens an all new can of worms. I tend to lean toward it being connected to higher dimensions, tesseracting, and the ZPE emissions Rommie can detect when the Magog agents are active. I'm not sure how but I'm pretty sure there is some sort of connection.

Possibly. As I mentioned, Dylan seemed to imply their missiles would have been capable of stopping them, had they either been in range for Defensive missile fire, or hadn't used their entire offensive payload.

That one bugs me to no end. The only way I can rationalize it is what follows. Or we can assume Andromeda has sufficient mass in missiles to stop something that can swallow a planet….

We know they used the entire smart missile supply to engage the Basilisk so they were out of the picture. Now they've theorized before on slipstream that about the only thing that could stop a PSP is a nova bomb. Either stop it by blowing it apart or canceling it out of existence. At the time Andromeda was possibly carrying nova bombs since they had them later in the season and they were mentioned in "Pitiless as the Sun". With the smart missiles and other offensive payload tasked the only things that might be able to mount a nova bomb would be the DM-5s. A big stretch but if you have anything better….

[Crossover_Maniac]

I hope don't expect the same ships that took a beating from the Hoth asteroid to stop a projectile with the mass of a planet compacted in a ball a centimeter in diameter with their shields.

Are you even BOTHERING to read my posts before replying, or have you somehow adopted the Wall of Ignorance Darkstar uses?

1.) The Hoth event has been dealt with repeatedly, and is furthermore an unquantifiable incident. ATtempting to use it to establish an upper limit on shielding capabilities is futile, as is your attempt to use it to justfiy Andromeda's ability to hurt ISD's.

If the Hoth asteroids did any damage to the ISD's, and I mean any damage at all, the OM-5's are going through. I've explained in an earlier thread that the OM-5's will place forces hundreds of times greater and sheer stresses millions of times greater than the force and stress placed on the hull by the Hoth asteroids due to the higher velocity of the missile and lower cross-sectional area. The OM-5's and smart missiles will go through. And if relativistic missiles are going through, then so is the PSP's even if they have a relatively small mass.

2.) You further compound your ignorance

Slinging insults isn't saving you in this debate.

by ignoring the fact I have SAID repeatedly that the shields will probably not withstand a PSP (due to comparsion of dovin basal effects on shields), even though MY reasons (which have proof, incidentally) are different than yours. The KE effect alone may or may not be enough to overwhelm the shields, but the gravity effect of the PSP (being a black hole) probably is enough to bypass them. Without that gravity effect, the only thing is the KE impact, which cannot be as high as you're claiming, for the reasons I've said before.

Nice little bait and switch tactic. Change the mechanism by which the PSP's penetrate the shields to something that SW ships can counter. Sorry, but Andromeda canon and physics has stated you need x mass to generate a black hole with event horizon radius r. The PSP's are several centimeters in diameter, so they are several times the mass of Earth. Sorry, the KE impact is enough to punch through and maybe even overload SW ship shields.

3.) You display this unnatural fixation for this "mass of a planet" thing,

So, does the Andromeda canon.

and you're obviously ignoring all the objections to it because you don't want to give it up. Yet you provide no real proof to back up your claims, much less contradict the quote of Paul Woodmansee regarding PSP's, plus the show-related material I've presented.

In "All Too Human", the Andromeda's scanners picked up the mass of several small planets being fired at them. Note the term 'mass'.

Probably. Their AG fields probably lowers their mass to zero.

Gravity does not create mass, mass creates gravity. Any sort of "mass" the AG field gives to a ship (and I've listed quite a few examples myself") is not "real" mass. The AG fields are not magic "energy to matter" converters"

So please provide proof that this "mass" the AG fields "probably" generate is real, live mass.

I'm sorry, I meant to say 'inertia'. That is to say, the resistance of mass to forces generated upon them. This was stated because you were saying it was impossible for a ship to carry around condensed matter.

[Renewed_Valour1]

This does beg the question of how fast a slipstream core can be fired. If it IS, the obvious countermeasure is to microjump away (or hyper out) unless the MWS can somehow pin the DS to a gravity well.

To be fair and not speculate rampantly the speed that the slipstream core can be ejected is probably depended on the velocity of the ship. You just buildup your speed and launch it like any other ballistic weapon. As for using hyperdrive to escape that can be easily countered. You either open a few slipstream portals to pin the Death Star down with their gravity before launching it. Even better the Magog don't exactly care about their swarmers so detonate the core while it is in the ship or shortly after being ejected before the DS has time to react. The gravity well of the exploding core will pin the Death Star down and haul it in.

It very likily the vessels we saw were not swarm ship at all, but some form of assault shuttle, and are carried aboard the swarm ships.

Good work trying to change canon once again but try again.

"It's Hour Come Around at Last"

Beka: "Something is punching through the hull."
Rommie: "I know that sound."
Hunt: "Magog Swarmships."


"Widening Gyre"

Rommie: "We've gotten their attention. Swarmships are tying to intercept our missiles."

[omegaLancer]

My comment about the swarm ship was not meant to distract in any way.. first I find it hard to believe that the ships that attack the Andromeda was the much feared Swarm ship from "home fires" . Four of them would not scare a High officer with several squadron of Slip fighter at his command.

Second there was no PSP cannons, which one assume they would possess and used in closing with the Andromeda..

And when Rommie made that statement, no ships was shown.. so it possible that the earily vessels are not Swarm ship, but the are to the Swarm ship as slip fighters are to XMS...

For Talk on varies BBs the Swarm ship would be a capital ship, a match for XMS.. But then that not cannon either it just a idea

[Renewed_Valour1]

My comment about the swarm ship was not meant to distract in any way.. first I find it hard to believe that the ships that attack the Andromeda was the much feared Swarm ship from "home fires" . Four of them would not scare a High officer with several squadron of Slip fighter at his command.

They are the same ship. The look exactly the same and appear to be the same dimensions as each other. That just implies they didn't do everything they are capable of.

Second there was no PSP cannons, which one assume they would possess and used in closing with the Andromeda..

They wanted the Andromeda intact for hosts and the SoA was basically toying with them at the time. They had no reason to blast the Andromeda when in mass they could board her. Then get what they wanted and then blast her into oblivion.

And when Rommie made that statement, no ships was shown.. so it possible that the earily vessels are not Swarm ship, but the are to the Swarm ship as slip fighters are to XMS...

We see visuals of the attacking Magog ships both times after those statements are made. Again they look exactly like the ones that boarded her the entire episode and we see again in Home Fires.

[omegaLancer]

I just replayed "home fires " last night.. No images of Swarm ship were show.. All of it occured off screen... and in the end they were not even Swarm ship but drones created to imitate the engine emission of Swarm ships..

Also after watching reviewing the Scene where Rommie told becker that they were Launching Swarm ship to intercept the Nova bomb and other items the andromeda launched, again no shot of what Rommie was talking about ( video recorder are great)..

But I will agree with you you about the fact that the ship view was swarm ship due to the episode with the with the AI's planet that was going to be PSP out of existant.. A friend point out the scene where Rommie destroyed the Swarm ship.. which was not the huge capital ship but a smaller vehicle..