America - Love It or Leave It

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2003-04-28 09:29am

Harry Browne wrote: Until the 20th century, America minded its own business. John Quincy Adams put it very simply: "America does not go abroad in search of monsters to destroy."

But today there are people living here who don't like the American tradition of peace and friendship. They want America to roam the world — attempting to right all the wrongs — no matter how often it fails to achieve its utopian goals.

To those people I say, "If you prefer constant aggression and conflict, why don't you go live in Lebanon?"

America was once the land where individual privacy and civil liberties were highly prized, where government had no power to pry into your political associations, your financial transactions, or your luggage.

But today there are those who don't like that American tradition. They say that national power and nation-building are more important than individualism and privacy.

To them I say, "If you prefer nosy government, why don't you go live in China?"

Insecurity

While European, Asian, and Middle Eastern nations fought their endless wars, perpetually invading and being invaded, causing their citizens to live in constant insecurity and fear, Americans could live happy, peaceful lives.

But some people don't want Americans to live that way. They like the state of siege the Bush administration has foisted on us.

To them I say, "If you prefer living in an insecure, armed state, why don't you go live in Israel?"

America was traditionally the land of free markets and free minds.

Now the politicians and bureaucrats want to control every aspect of our lives. Republicans and Democrats alike endorse the endless forms we must fill out, the government's takeover of medicine, and the myriad regulatory agencies.

To those who approve of that I say, "If you prefer big government, why don't you go live in Sweden?"

Americans were always skeptical of their government — and they still are. Polls routinely show politicians in lower repute than used-car dealers.

But today there are subversive voices telling us to support our government, right or wrong — telling us we must trust our President, even when it's obvious he's been dispensing false information — telling us to cheer for the military, even when they're in the wrong place.

To those who claim we must support our Glorious Leader no matter what he does, I say, "If you prefer blind obedience, why don't you go live in Iran?"

The Pot Attacks

What is truly strange is that these critics of the American way of life — people who prefer the alien values of the Old World — have the audacity to criticize those of us who love America — calling us, of all things, "un-American," "unpatriotic," or "anti-American."

Supposedly it is now naïve, unrealistic, or cowardly to believe in the uniqueness of America. So we are attacked for trying to preserve and restore the very qualities that made America the world's most attractive country.

After all, if we aren't going to be that unique place called America — the place that was once the beacon of liberty and peace, providing light and hope and inspiration to the whole world — what's the point of living here?

The critics of America may try to wrap themselves in the American flag, but their allegiance is actually to some other flag. I don't know where they'd be happiest, but it obviously isn't America.

So to those people I say: America — love it or leave it.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2003-04-28 10:31am

Until the 20th century, America minded its own business. John Quincy Adams put it very simply: "America does not go abroad in search of monsters to destroy."

But today there are people living here who don't like the American tradition of peace and friendship. They want America to roam the world — attempting to right all the wrongs — no matter how often it fails to achieve its utopian goals.

Bull shit, American has always (to one extent or another) been engaged in the international comunity for the benifit of its interests. Barbary coast and Tripoli to Mexico. From agressive wars against Indians to skirmishes against the British and French. They have never been to 'right wrongs' per se, but have always been to further our interests.

The notion of a peaceful isolationist America in its infancy is a pipe dream like the Cleaver type family in the 50's.

To those people I say, "If you prefer constant aggression and conflict, why don't you go live in Lebanon?"

America was once the land where individual privacy and civil liberties were highly prized, where government had no power to pry into your political associations, your financial transactions, or your luggage.

But today there are those who don't like that American tradition. They say that national power and nation-building are more important than individualism and privacy.

To them I say, "If you prefer nosy government, why don't you go live in China?"

Again this guy is changing history to suit his purposes. Once upon a time in America, blacks did not have civil liberties and disidents were put down. Power mongers of all sorts abused the system and though it never reached 'dictator' like proportions it was never the utopia that the author 'remembers'.

While European, Asian, and Middle Eastern nations fought their endless wars, perpetually invading and being invaded, causing their citizens to live in constant insecurity and fear, Americans could live happy, peaceful lives.

But some people don't want Americans to live that way. They like the state of siege the Bush administration has foisted on us.

To them I say, "If you prefer living in an insecure, armed state, why don't you go live in Israel?"

Again, I am trying to find what specific chunk of American history that this guy is talking about. The first hundred years of America is full of wars to expand our boarders and defend our gains. Ask the Mexicans or ask yourself why we have a base on Cuba. We did not buy Gitmo from Castro.

America was traditionally the land of free markets and free minds.

Now the politicians and bureaucrats want to control every aspect of our lives. Republicans and Democrats alike endorse the endless forms we must fill out, the government's takeover of medicine, and the myriad regulatory agencies.

To those who approve of that I say, "If you prefer big government, why don't you go live in Sweden?"

Ok, I mildly agree with this setiment. But again he goes too far.

Americans were always skeptical of their government — and they still are. Polls routinely show politicians in lower repute than used-car dealers.

But today there are subversive voices telling us to support our government, right or wrong — telling us we must trust our President, even when it's obvious he's been dispensing false information — telling us to cheer for the military, even when they're in the wrong place.

To those who claim we must support our Glorious Leader no matter what he does, I say, "If you prefer blind obedience, why don't you go live in Iran?"

Ok, I have had enough of the people who claim that they can't dissent. Alot of people are going around spewing that they are not able to put forth their opinion on the current events because they are labled as *insert negitive term here*. Bull shit. I have seen protest after protest. I have heard interview after interview with dissenting opinions.

To my knowledge, no one has been sent to the gulag, no one has had his/her tounge cut out. And no wife has had her husbands head sent to her. They are telling you to STFU because they have heard your opinion and do not agree.

What is truly strange is that these critics of the American way of life — people who prefer the alien values of the Old World — have the audacity to criticize those of us who love America — calling us, of all things, "un-American," "unpatriotic," or "anti-American."

Supposedly it is now naïve, unrealistic, or cowardly to believe in the uniqueness of America. So we are attacked for trying to preserve and restore the very qualities that made America the world's most attractive country.

After all, if we aren't going to be that unique place called America — the place that was once the beacon of liberty and peace, providing light and hope and inspiration to the whole world — what's the point of living here?

The critics of America may try to wrap themselves in the American flag, but their allegiance is actually to some other flag. I don't know where they'd be happiest, but it obviously isn't America.

So to those people I say: America — love it or leave it.

Blah. It should be obvious that there are extremists on both sides of the issue. I think I would be safe in saying that this guy would fit into that category.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-04-28 10:38am

Knife has save my the trouble of typing any more.

salm · Post by **salm** » 2003-04-28 01:39pm

hmm... i´d prefer:

America - Love it or change it (or don´t give a shit).

Nathan F · Post by **Nathan F** » 2003-04-28 01:41pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:Knife has save my the trouble of typing any more.

Same here.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-04-28 03:43pm

He does subscribe to the "good old days" fallacy which is simply not historically accurate, but at the same time, I can't imagine Thomas Jefferson would be happy with things like the DMCA, the Patriot Act, or the Bush/Asscroft Wall of Separation Demolition Team.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-04-28 03:47pm

Wait, first he says no to mindless obidience, then he says love it or leave it.

WTF?

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-04-28 03:49pm

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:Wait, first he says no to mindless obidience, then he says love it or leave it.

WTF?

He's just trying to throw their fallacy back at them (unfortunately, that doesn't make it any less fallacious).

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-04-28 03:50pm

Darth Wong wrote:He does subscribe to the "good old days" fallacy

I love that one. So easy to shoot down. I've got to type up that essay I did on organic foods and that....

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2003-04-28 08:10pm

Excluding World Wars and expeditions to suppress piracy or the slave trade, the U.S. has made armed invasions on more than 130 separate occasions, including:

China, 18 times
Mexico, 13
Nicaragua, 9
Panama, 9
Honduras, 7
Colombia, 6
Turkey, 6
Dominican Republic, 5
Korea, 5
Japan, 5
Argentinia, 4
Cuba, 4
Haiti, 4
Kingdom of Hawaii, 4
Samoa, 4
Uruguay, 3
Fiji, 3
Guatemala, 2
Lebanon, 2
Soviet Union, 2
Sumatra, 2
Iraq, 2
Afganistan
Grenada
Somalia
Puerto Rico
Brazil
Chile
Morocco
Egypt
Ivory Coast
Syria
Peru
Formosa
The Phillipines
Cambodia
Laos
Vietnam

Now what is it that Harry Browne was saying?

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-04-28 10:56pm

wow. that list makes me fuzzy.

Worlds Spanner · Post by **Worlds Spanner** » 2003-05-01 05:16pm

Great post!

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-05-01 07:27pm

which one?

The Albino Raven · Post by **The Albino Raven** » 2003-05-02 11:20pm

Darth Wong has got the right idea. This Harry Browne fellow obviously uses selected pieces of history, but honestly, i don't think the men who wrote the declaration of Independence and the Constitution had in mind a nation in which there are laws that violate the Bill of Rights. (specifically the pieces of the bill of rights referring to the legal/inprisonment of people)

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2003-05-03 02:57am

Fremen_Muhadib wrote:Darth Wong has got the right idea. This Harry Browne fellow obviously uses selected pieces of history, but honestly, i don't think the men who wrote the declaration of Independence and the Constitution had in mind a nation in which there are laws that violate the Bill of Rights. (specifically the pieces of the bill of rights referring to the legal/inprisonment of people)

In defense of that, how the hell could they percieve what the hell was coming down the pike. What (and I might be being naive, but what is violating the first ten amendments) would they object too? I am not trying to be an ass, but to see others points in detail.

Death from the Sea · Post by **Death from the Sea** » 2003-05-03 03:04am

I have to say I thought this thread was some reference to the movie Born on the Fourth of July, because that is practically all Tom Cruise said in that movie!

Ignorant_Boy · Post by **Ignorant_Boy** » 2003-05-03 12:36pm

Wicked Pilot wrote:Excluding World Wars and expeditions to suppress piracy or the slave trade...

What about Canada?

Unless that was considered "to supress piracy?"

Andrew J. · Post by **Andrew J.** » 2003-05-03 04:52pm

Ignorant_Boy wrote:
Wicked Pilot wrote:Excluding World Wars and expeditions to suppress piracy or the slave trade...
What about Canada?
Unless that was considered "to supress piracy?"

Maybe it's not counted because it wasn't an independent country back then?

Ignorant_Boy · Post by **Ignorant_Boy** » 2003-05-03 06:32pm

Andrew J. wrote:
Ignorant_Boy wrote:
Wicked Pilot wrote:Excluding World Wars and expeditions to suppress piracy or the slave trade...
What about Canada?
Unless that was considered "to supress piracy?"
Maybe it's not counted because it wasn't an independent country back then?

Ok then. Thanks.

StarshipTitanic · Post by **StarshipTitanic** » 2003-05-03 10:59pm

When did we invade the Philippines when it wasn't owned by the Spanish?

StarshipTitanic · Post by **StarshipTitanic** » 2003-05-03 11:01pm

Oh, and Soviet Union twice? All I can recall is when the US was trying to stop the Reds from taking over after WW1.

Admiral Johnason · Post by **Admiral Johnason** » 2003-05-04 12:51am

Wicked Pilot wrote:Excluding World Wars and expeditions to suppress piracy or the slave trade, the U.S. has made armed invasions on more than 130 separate occasions, including:

China, 18 times
Mexico, 13
Nicaragua, 9
Panama, 9
Honduras, 7
Colombia, 6
Turkey, 6
Dominican Republic, 5
Korea, 5
Japan, 5
Argentinia, 4
Cuba, 4
Haiti, 4
Kingdom of Hawaii, 4
Samoa, 4
Uruguay, 3
Fiji, 3
Guatemala, 2
Lebanon, 2
Soviet Union, 2
Sumatra, 2
Iraq, 2
Afganistan
Grenada
Somalia
Puerto Rico
Brazil
Chile
Morocco
Egypt
Ivory Coast
Syria
Peru
Formosa
The Phillipines
Cambodia
Laos
Vietnam

Now what is it that Harry Browne was saying?

It makes me fell kinda proud.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-05-04 12:51am

Wicked Pilot wrote:*snip list of invaded countries*

*smiles*
*sighs in a nostalgic manner*

Post by **Gandalf** » 2003-05-04 01:44am

StarshipTitanic wrote:Oh, and Soviet Union twice? All I can recall is when the US was trying to stop the Reds from taking over after WW1.

IIRC they sent some troops to back up the White Army during the civil war.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-05-04 01:53am

Gandalf wrote:
StarshipTitanic wrote:Oh, and Soviet Union twice? All I can recall is when the US was trying to stop the Reds from taking over after WW1.
IIRC they sent some troops to back up the White Army during the civil war.

The US sent forces to several parts of Russia in 1918 and 1919; it's probably counting them separately. There main objective wasn't so much to directly support the whites as to keep the Reds from capturing the huge supply stock that had built up at Arkhangelsk. Through out WW1 the UK and France sent supplies to that port, but its railway connection was shitty so few could actually reach Russia armies.