Warcraft(1,2,3) VS Lord of the Rings
Moderator: NecronLord
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Master of Ossus
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Okay, okay, concessions granted on all counts, Igot.
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Latinum Star Recipient; Hacker's Cross Award Winner
"one soler flar can vapririze the planit or malt the nickl in lass than millasacit" -Bagara1000
"Happiness is just a Flaming Moe away."
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Silver Paladin
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What spells and abilities do the Maia/Valars have exactly?
But now you're assuming that a Dragon can kill Archimonde. Remember, a WC3 dragon can't even damage Archimonde, simply because he's immune to their attacks. ME dragons have similar attacks (ie. fire), and I severely doubt that it would damage Archimonde.
Yes. In Warcraft, there are Scrolls of Ressurection and Scrolls of Raise Dead. They may be limited by mana (actually, they're more limited by cooldown rather than mana), but like I said, there's way more Paladins than Valars.
Ner'zhul tricked the Kalimdor people. He did not trick the Eredar. The Eredar are described as "an insidious race of devillish sorcerers", "used their warlock magick to enslave a number of worlds that they had invaded. The indigenous races of the world were mutated by the Eredar's chjaotic powers and turned into demons themselves." So they are tremendously intelligent beings as well.
Your statement is ridiculous. Let's analyze why:
1) If he destroyed those planets, then he wouldn't have a Demon Portal to summon them through
2) Remember, at the beginning of the game, he was on another planet rather than Kalimdor
3) Would the Dread Lords serve him if he destroyed their planet?
4) Also, if you're going to give Archimonde the power to destroy an entire planet....good bye ME.
5) "Kil'jaeden the Deceiver was chosen to seek out the darkest races in the universe and lure them to Sargeras' shadow." Doesn't sound like they destroyed all the other planets.
The reason he doesn't outnumber them is because he needs to open portals to let in his army. If they fight in a 3rd party universe or in the WC universe, they would easily get enough troops in to wipe out ME
Finally, I did say that I believe Sauron is stronger than an Eredar, EXCEPT in combat. That applies to pretty much all of ME. None of them are as specialized in combat as WC units are. While they may be magically stronger or more manipulative, if it comes down to a free for all beat down, ME will lose.
And Maias are not as impressive as you make them out to be. When have we seen Gandalf or Saruman effectively fight in combat? When the Cave Troll came in, Gandalf (if he was REALLY that good) should have zapped the Cave Troll to ashes. When they were swarmed by the Goblins, Gandalf should have wiped them out with a magic spell of sorts. When Gandalf fell following the fight with the Balrog, Saruman could have wiped out the entire fellowship (assuming he was that powerful). However, all he did was send out his Orcs. In the prologue, Sauron never displayed any "Uber-spells of ass-kicking-ness"; instead he resorted to melee combat (enhanced with spells of strength more likely), but none of the "Kill lots of enemies at the same time".
The problem is no one really lists the abilities and spell of a Maia/Valar. They just go 'Oh yah, they're hella powerful so they'll kick your ass'. The problem is, more often than not, for all their (assumed) power, they don't do jack.
But now you're assuming that a Dragon can kill Archimonde. Remember, a WC3 dragon can't even damage Archimonde, simply because he's immune to their attacks. ME dragons have similar attacks (ie. fire), and I severely doubt that it would damage Archimonde.
Yes. In Warcraft, there are Scrolls of Ressurection and Scrolls of Raise Dead. They may be limited by mana (actually, they're more limited by cooldown rather than mana), but like I said, there's way more Paladins than Valars.
Ner'zhul tricked the Kalimdor people. He did not trick the Eredar. The Eredar are described as "an insidious race of devillish sorcerers", "used their warlock magick to enslave a number of worlds that they had invaded. The indigenous races of the world were mutated by the Eredar's chjaotic powers and turned into demons themselves." So they are tremendously intelligent beings as well.
Your statement is ridiculous. Let's analyze why:
1) If he destroyed those planets, then he wouldn't have a Demon Portal to summon them through
2) Remember, at the beginning of the game, he was on another planet rather than Kalimdor
3) Would the Dread Lords serve him if he destroyed their planet?
4) Also, if you're going to give Archimonde the power to destroy an entire planet....good bye ME.
5) "Kil'jaeden the Deceiver was chosen to seek out the darkest races in the universe and lure them to Sargeras' shadow." Doesn't sound like they destroyed all the other planets.
The reason he doesn't outnumber them is because he needs to open portals to let in his army. If they fight in a 3rd party universe or in the WC universe, they would easily get enough troops in to wipe out ME
Finally, I did say that I believe Sauron is stronger than an Eredar, EXCEPT in combat. That applies to pretty much all of ME. None of them are as specialized in combat as WC units are. While they may be magically stronger or more manipulative, if it comes down to a free for all beat down, ME will lose.
And Maias are not as impressive as you make them out to be. When have we seen Gandalf or Saruman effectively fight in combat? When the Cave Troll came in, Gandalf (if he was REALLY that good) should have zapped the Cave Troll to ashes. When they were swarmed by the Goblins, Gandalf should have wiped them out with a magic spell of sorts. When Gandalf fell following the fight with the Balrog, Saruman could have wiped out the entire fellowship (assuming he was that powerful). However, all he did was send out his Orcs. In the prologue, Sauron never displayed any "Uber-spells of ass-kicking-ness"; instead he resorted to melee combat (enhanced with spells of strength more likely), but none of the "Kill lots of enemies at the same time".
The problem is no one really lists the abilities and spell of a Maia/Valar. They just go 'Oh yah, they're hella powerful so they'll kick your ass'. The problem is, more often than not, for all their (assumed) power, they don't do jack.
The LoTR is a literature, not a Game (but some could bring the MERPS, which i never for is dislike it totally)...but in the books they have been able to surround a kingdom by shield to not allowed anyone to come in, To do mind control to a lot of people, to see in places they are not in, to survive what would cause death like tsunames, to return from death. The valars then could cause tsunames, earthquakes, change seas from place, to banish people, to create other dimensions, to change life, to curse a entire region or area, to move at amazing speeds, to avoid death or return from it.What spells and abilities do the Maia/Valars have exactly?
Dragons if ME and WC have only in commum the fact they are lizards that fly and breath fire. The Dragons of ME are much more powerful, and a product of Morgoth's work and in a way the "chaos" of ME. That is those dragons could be useful against Archimonde as a replacement for the chaos catapult.But now you're assuming that a Dragon can kill Archimonde. Remember, a WC3 dragon can't even damage Archimonde, simply because he's immune to their attacks. ME dragons have similar attacks (ie. fire), and I severely doubt that it would damage Archimonde.
I know there is scrolls. I mean its ridiculous to think that because its obvious that ME have also scrolls and the scrolls still need the casters.Yes. In Warcraft, there are Scrolls of Ressurection and Scrolls of Raise Dead. They may be limited by mana (actually, they're more limited by cooldown rather than mana), but like I said, there's way more Paladins than Valars.
And like i pointed the magic of Valar are not limited as the paladins.
I never said they are not inteligent.Ner'zhul tricked the Kalimdor people. He did not trick the Eredar. The Eredar are described as "an insidious race of devillish sorcerers", "used their warlock magick to enslave a number of worlds that they had invaded. The indigenous races of the world were mutated by the Eredar's chjaotic powers and turned into demons themselves." So they are tremendously intelligent beings as well.
Because...Would be ilogical ? He destroyed the planet, no life there but the demon. He does not have infinite troops from there, since he use not1) If he destroyed those planets, then he wouldn't have a Demon Portal to summon them through
Yes, the same other planet he is since the begining. That only shows he live somewhere else, not that he have a infinite number of troops of other planets.2) Remember, at the beginning of the game, he was on another planet rather than Kalimdor
Why not ? He corrupted then. Like he did in Kalimor where he used local troops as well.3) Would the Dread Lords serve him if he destroyed their planet?
He destroyed just like he would do there. Killing all living in the surface. That is all. But I wonder why bye bye ME if even a"Minor" being like Sauron had the power to do the same...4) Also, if you're going to give Archimonde the power to destroy an entire planet....good bye ME.
Seems like he have selected being with him, not outnumering troops actually,5) "Kil'jaeden the Deceiver was chosen to seek out the darkest races in the universe and lure them to Sargeras' shadow." Doesn't sound like they destroyed all the other planets.
You joke isnt ?The reason he doesn't outnumber them is because he needs to open portals to let in his army. If they fight in a 3rd party universe or in the WC universe, they would easily get enough troops in to wipe out ME
He is limited by his production. Even in his universe he was such limited, imagine in any other.
Eh, where you got there ? The troops we saw in combat are all inferior to the elfs. Many of them are extremely good, much better than other there...Finally, I did say that I believe Sauron is stronger than an Eredar, EXCEPT in combat. That applies to pretty much all of ME. None of them are as specialized in combat as WC units are. While they may be magically stronger or more manipulative, if it comes down to a free for all beat down, ME will lose.
Sauron is maia. So its the Balrog. Gandalf and Saruman are for non-combat beings that the valar sent. The Gandalf,the white is more powerful then this one for example.And Maias are not as impressive as you make them out to be. When have we seen Gandalf or Saruman effectively fight in combat? When the Cave Troll came in, Gandalf (if he was REALLY that good) should have zapped the Cave Troll to ashes. When they were swarmed by the Goblins, Gandalf should have wiped them out with a magic spell of sorts. When Gandalf fell following the fight with the Balrog, Saruman could have wiped out the entire fellowship (assuming he was that powerful). However, all he did was send out his Orcs.
Well, the prologue in one hit he kills everyone around him , remember ?In the prologue, Sauron never displayed any "Uber-spells of ass-kicking-ness"; instead he resorted to melee combat (enhanced with spells of strength more likely), but none of the "Kill lots of enemies at the same time".
The one ring is a uber spell of kickness, he can control mind and change the beings with Sauron far far away.
That prologue is a result of years of Sauron work and He had to go to combat because the elfs and numenors joined up. You must read Simarillion to know about this, not that prologue.
You mean, like the outnumering troops never used ? The powerful Titans, Eredars ,etc never showed ?The problem is no one really lists the abilities and spell of a Maia/Valar. They just go 'Oh yah, they're hella powerful so they'll kick your ass'. The problem is, more often than not, for all their (assumed) power, they don't do jack.
They do a lot. There is a book about their doings. The problem is you have not noticed yet that the old elves are already much superior to all that WC ever do.
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Silver Paladin
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None of your Valars special abilities seem to be greatly different from that which WC3 wields.
in the books they have been able to surround a kingdom by shield to not allowed anyone to come in - This is the only one that WC3 does not exactly match, but the Humans of Dalaran erected an Anti-Undead barrier than drained the lifeforce of the undead as they stayed in the barrier.
To do mind control to a lot of people - Banshees, Sceptre of Mastery; the Eredar would corrupt the people around them and turn them into demons serving to serve them.
to see in places they are not in - Far Sight, Crystal Orb, Medivh
to survive what would cause death like tsunames - There aren't any tsunamis in WC, but I doubt Archimonde would die to a tsunami, Divine Shield, Potion of Invulnerability
to return from death. All heros have this ability, because when they die, their soul enters "ether" to be recalled at a Altar. Ankh of Reincarnation, Reincarnation, Ressurection, Scroll of Ressurection. Medivh came back from the dead after he was killed in WC1.
The valars then could cause tsunames, earthquakes, change seas from place, to banish people, to create other dimensions, to change life, to curse a entire region or area, - Titans created the planets a well as the life forms in the universe. Far Seer can cause Earthquakes, the Undead can blight an entire area, etc.
to move at amazing speeds, - Warcraft uses portals; Dark Summoning, Mass Teleport, Amulet of Recall, Scroll of Town Portal, Rain of Chaos, etc. As far as combat speed goes...Give a Demon hunter Tomes of Agilities. Watch him go.
to avoid death or return from it. - I listed both how they can avoid death or return from it.
A lot of the Valar's abilities are so utterly commonplace in the WC3 universe that they're merely enchanted onto a scroll or an item.
Assuming that their attack is capable of hurting Archimonde, a well placed Finger of Death should down them.
But can anyone but the Valar bring back the dead? That's the question. The Valar may not be as limited, but the Paladins are far more numerous in number.
I meant: If he destroyed all the planets, where would all the portals lead to? And I never stated that he had an infinite number of troops. I said he had 7 planets full of troops.
"In his madness, Sargeras shattered the prisons of the Eredar and the Nathrezim and set the vile demons free. The cunning demons bowing before the dark Titan's vast rage and power offered themselves to him and swore to serve him in whatever malicious way they could." Seeing as how the Eredar and the Nathrezim were allied under Sargeras...why would the Eredar go about destroying the Nathrezim's planet?
Maybe because Sauron never did it? And you used the term "destroy" a la Death Star. Now it's "Killing all living in the surface?"
No, because it specifies entire races, not just select individuals.
So...how exactly would ME work on another universe? We have no proof that they can teleport through universes. Would that imply that ME would lose? No. Logically, I would place ME's troops in the 3rd party universe at the beginning of combat. The same would be done for WC3's troops.
Inferior to the Elves? When the base unit of your army is basically mini-me version of a Balrog, I can't see where you'd begin to think that the Elves were superior to WC3.
I'm not exactly sure I understand what you're saying about "Gandalf and Saruman are for non-combat beings that the valar sent. The Gandalf,the white is more powerful then this one for example."
The One Ring is not much better than the Eredar's demonic aura which corrupts the people around them and turns them into demons under the Eredar's command. And for a Maia, Sauron took down at most 8-10 guys per strike. Is that the best that a uber-Maia can do? If so, I'm afraid that he's going to get his world rocked by Archimonde.
The outnumbering troops never used? Play the last level of the Night Elf campaign WITHOUT cheating, and tell me if it's possible to even take down half the base before you get totally annihilated. Heck, turn off the fog of war (iseedeadpeople) and you'll see an endless number of undead rising to face you. In the last level of the Orc Campaign, the Rain of Infernos never stops. There is an entire race of the Eredar so unless you're going to somehow assume that the Eredar decided to blow up their own planet...
The Titans are much like the Valar. They don't interfere in the affairs of those they have created. The only person that they ever assigned to do that was Sargaras, and he went crazy. Since then they have not appointed another person to do it. However, if you're going to bring in the Valar, then I think it's rather fair for me to bring in the Titans as well, since neither have shown a propensity for interfereing with mortal affairs.
And like I said...the Older Elves do not have to power to raise the dead, resurrect the dead, summon demons from another world, call nature to rain (and have the rain heal you), summon trees to fight for them, etc. Exactly what powers do the older elves have that make them so much better?
in the books they have been able to surround a kingdom by shield to not allowed anyone to come in - This is the only one that WC3 does not exactly match, but the Humans of Dalaran erected an Anti-Undead barrier than drained the lifeforce of the undead as they stayed in the barrier.
To do mind control to a lot of people - Banshees, Sceptre of Mastery; the Eredar would corrupt the people around them and turn them into demons serving to serve them.
to see in places they are not in - Far Sight, Crystal Orb, Medivh
to survive what would cause death like tsunames - There aren't any tsunamis in WC, but I doubt Archimonde would die to a tsunami, Divine Shield, Potion of Invulnerability
to return from death. All heros have this ability, because when they die, their soul enters "ether" to be recalled at a Altar. Ankh of Reincarnation, Reincarnation, Ressurection, Scroll of Ressurection. Medivh came back from the dead after he was killed in WC1.
The valars then could cause tsunames, earthquakes, change seas from place, to banish people, to create other dimensions, to change life, to curse a entire region or area, - Titans created the planets a well as the life forms in the universe. Far Seer can cause Earthquakes, the Undead can blight an entire area, etc.
to move at amazing speeds, - Warcraft uses portals; Dark Summoning, Mass Teleport, Amulet of Recall, Scroll of Town Portal, Rain of Chaos, etc. As far as combat speed goes...Give a Demon hunter Tomes of Agilities. Watch him go.
to avoid death or return from it. - I listed both how they can avoid death or return from it.
A lot of the Valar's abilities are so utterly commonplace in the WC3 universe that they're merely enchanted onto a scroll or an item.
Assuming that their attack is capable of hurting Archimonde, a well placed Finger of Death should down them.
But can anyone but the Valar bring back the dead? That's the question. The Valar may not be as limited, but the Paladins are far more numerous in number.
I meant: If he destroyed all the planets, where would all the portals lead to? And I never stated that he had an infinite number of troops. I said he had 7 planets full of troops.
"In his madness, Sargeras shattered the prisons of the Eredar and the Nathrezim and set the vile demons free. The cunning demons bowing before the dark Titan's vast rage and power offered themselves to him and swore to serve him in whatever malicious way they could." Seeing as how the Eredar and the Nathrezim were allied under Sargeras...why would the Eredar go about destroying the Nathrezim's planet?
Maybe because Sauron never did it? And you used the term "destroy" a la Death Star. Now it's "Killing all living in the surface?"
No, because it specifies entire races, not just select individuals.
So...how exactly would ME work on another universe? We have no proof that they can teleport through universes. Would that imply that ME would lose? No. Logically, I would place ME's troops in the 3rd party universe at the beginning of combat. The same would be done for WC3's troops.
Inferior to the Elves? When the base unit of your army is basically mini-me version of a Balrog, I can't see where you'd begin to think that the Elves were superior to WC3.
I'm not exactly sure I understand what you're saying about "Gandalf and Saruman are for non-combat beings that the valar sent. The Gandalf,the white is more powerful then this one for example."
The One Ring is not much better than the Eredar's demonic aura which corrupts the people around them and turns them into demons under the Eredar's command. And for a Maia, Sauron took down at most 8-10 guys per strike. Is that the best that a uber-Maia can do? If so, I'm afraid that he's going to get his world rocked by Archimonde.
The outnumbering troops never used? Play the last level of the Night Elf campaign WITHOUT cheating, and tell me if it's possible to even take down half the base before you get totally annihilated. Heck, turn off the fog of war (iseedeadpeople) and you'll see an endless number of undead rising to face you. In the last level of the Orc Campaign, the Rain of Infernos never stops. There is an entire race of the Eredar so unless you're going to somehow assume that the Eredar decided to blow up their own planet...
The Titans are much like the Valar. They don't interfere in the affairs of those they have created. The only person that they ever assigned to do that was Sargaras, and he went crazy. Since then they have not appointed another person to do it. However, if you're going to bring in the Valar, then I think it's rather fair for me to bring in the Titans as well, since neither have shown a propensity for interfereing with mortal affairs.
And like I said...the Older Elves do not have to power to raise the dead, resurrect the dead, summon demons from another world, call nature to rain (and have the rain heal you), summon trees to fight for them, etc. Exactly what powers do the older elves have that make them so much better?
About Morgoth and his strength:
He wasn't a very powerful fighter, he was a very cunning manipulator.
Fact is, he fought against a human (ok, it was one of the best human fighters ever, but still a human), and suffered wounds from which he never recovered, and after which he never fought again.
Also, Morgoth gave up most of his powers by creating the orcs, trolls and similar beings.
Sauron is very similar to Morgoth: He mainly manipulates, he doesn't fight that much. Remember, he manipulated the Numenorers(sp?), after seing that he couldn't defeat them (HUMANS!)!
Also about the speed of the Valar: Tulkas is the fastest, and can outrun a horse. Now tell me: what is a faster: someone outrunning a horse or a mass teleport to a place a couple of hundred kilometers away?
He wasn't a very powerful fighter, he was a very cunning manipulator.
Fact is, he fought against a human (ok, it was one of the best human fighters ever, but still a human), and suffered wounds from which he never recovered, and after which he never fought again.
Also, Morgoth gave up most of his powers by creating the orcs, trolls and similar beings.
Sauron is very similar to Morgoth: He mainly manipulates, he doesn't fight that much. Remember, he manipulated the Numenorers(sp?), after seing that he couldn't defeat them (HUMANS!)!
Also about the speed of the Valar: Tulkas is the fastest, and can outrun a horse. Now tell me: what is a faster: someone outrunning a horse or a mass teleport to a place a couple of hundred kilometers away?
You joke. This is turning to be repetive. The Banshees and Sceptres are limited to one person (or the charge of scepters, of course). Not to mind control a lot of person. Its is not the same thing.To do mind control to a lot of people - Banshees, Sceptre of Mastery; the Eredar would corrupt the people around them and turn them into demons serving to serve them.
And the Eredar can do that, which is something that a Elf like Galadriel can do as well. Notice, A ELF. (Not to corrupt them and turn in demons, of course. its not her kind...)
Which are limited by time and space. Sauron could see Frodo everytime he used the ring, no matter what. He could see Saruman using the Palantir all the time, no matter what.to see in places they are not in - Far Sight, Crystal Orb, Medivh
Divine Shield does not protect you from that. And Potion of Invulnerabilty as well and i may even point out, How is one supposed to drink a potion beneath such thing as Tsuname. I think there will be water in your potion, man.to survive what would cause death like tsunames - There aren't any tsunamis in WC, but I doubt Archimonde would die to a tsunami, Divine Shield, Potion of Invulnerability
I agree, only heroes can use this ability by using something else.to return from death. All heros have this ability, because when they die, their soul enters "ether" to be recalled at a Altar. Ankh of Reincarnation, Reincarnation, Ressurection, Scroll of Ressurection. Medivh came back from the dead after he was killed in WC1.
Eh...the Earthquake of the Far Seer can hardly destroy a farm. Morgoth made a area haunted just by passing by with a lot of wicked hatred in his mind. Whatever they do its just a very bellow level of power of what they did there.The valars then could cause tsunames, earthquakes, change seas from place, to banish people, to create other dimensions, to change life, to curse a entire region or area, - Titans created the planets a well as the life forms in the universe. Far Seer can cause Earthquakes, the Undead can blight an entire area, etc.
THe only thing you put here to be alike moving the amazing speeds is the Tome of Agility. But sorry, The ME who didnt needed to read the book already got it and it is faster.to move at amazing speeds, - Warcraft uses portals; Dark Summoning, Mass Teleport, Amulet of Recall, Scroll of Town Portal, Rain of Chaos, etc. As far as combat speed goes...Give a Demon hunter Tomes of Agilities. Watch him go.
You could use another kind of tatics thant saying they could be good if they use some magical item, scroll because they would need to be able to use it in first place and you with that forget the ME would be able to use as well.
Of course they are comom place...they are ripped from it...The level of power of ME is much bigger than of the WC and you mostly can only assume what Eredars and Titans can do.A lot of the Valar's abilities are so utterly commonplace in the WC3 universe that they're merely enchanted onto a scroll or an item.
^^ There is more than one dragon, you know. As Archimonde can kill easily catapults but he didnt because he is busy dealing with something else.ne ?Assuming that their attack is capable of hurting Archimonde, a well placed Finger of Death should down them.
You know wants to compare Paladins, which are unable to bring back enough people to defend their world to Valars ?But can anyone but the Valar bring back the dead? That's the question. The Valar may not be as limited, but the Paladins are far more numerous in number.
Geez, to the same place Archimonde lives. they stayed here. You say he have all planets to give him troops, which seems he only use One kind of troop.I meant: If he destroyed all the planets, where would all the portals lead to? And I never stated that he had an infinite number of troops. I said he had 7 planets full of troops.
For any reason would them. What does it have to do ?Seeing as how the Eredar and the Nathrezim were allied under Sargeras...why would the Eredar go about destroying the Nathrezim's planet?
The only reason that Sauron did not is because he had to face powerful things.Maybe because Sauron never did it? And you used the term "destroy" a la Death Star. Now it's "Killing all living in the surface?"
And I never used it. You assumed that I was doing a DBZ in a planet (But its fine, this things happens and i apolozige for not being more complete)
Still a selection of which race he would use. Since I do not believe in a entire planet with one race there, Seems like he does not have planets full of troops.No, because it specifies entire races, not just select individuals.
You are the one who said would be like that, you the one that supposed the non-limitations. Not me.So...how exactly would ME work on another universe? We have no proof that they can teleport through universes. Would that imply that ME would lose? No. Logically, I would place ME's troops in the 3rd party universe at the beginning of combat. The same would be done for WC3's troops.
Ehhh ? A Mini version of Balrogs ? What kind of comment is this ?Inferior to the Elves? When the base unit of your army is basically mini-me version of a Balrog, I can't see where you'd begin to think that the Elves were superior to WC3.
The elfs of ME are actually immortals, they are just not archers or huntress versions, being able to fight in any way with much more capacity (not elf in ME can ever claim to be able to do what for example Legolas do in the movie), they are all magical in their nature since born, unlike WC which need training to a few magical abilities.
The elf in ME was able to create magical stuff that could bring light to all world (the Sun is a jewel that a elf created) to make all the kingdom go invisible and not detected. They are able actually to do stuff in the level of Maias...The Elfs of ME are much superior.
Gandalf is wise man, not a warrior. But even so he faces a Balrog.I'm not exactly sure I understand what you're saying about "Gandalf and Saruman are for non-combat beings that the valar sent. The Gandalf,the white is more powerful then this one for example."
The one ring is MUCH better. It as you noticed can make someone without any training to use it to be invisible. It can corrupt and change a entire race and control them without Sauron needing to move. Its much betterThe One Ring is not much better than the Eredar's demonic aura which corrupts the people around them and turns them into demons under the Eredar's command. And for a Maia, Sauron took down at most 8-10 guys per strike. Is that the best that a uber-Maia can do? If so, I'm afraid that he's going to get his world rocked by Archimonde.
Yeah, tell, when a WC being hit more than one adversary at once without use of a spell or magical item ?
LOL. Do you know that Outnumbering troops means having more troops than the enemy ?The outnumbering troops never used? Play the last level of the Night Elf campaign WITHOUT cheating, and tell me if it's possible to even take down half the base before you get totally annihilated. Heck, turn off the fog of war (iseedeadpeople) and you'll see an endless number of undead rising to face you. In the last level of the Orc Campaign, the Rain of Infernos never stops. There is an entire race of the Eredar so unless you're going to somehow assume that the Eredar decided to blow up their own planet...
The Night elf last level as hard it can be, its possible to be finished without cheats, so you beat the outnumbering troops,which lay in a 2/1 bases, not the numbers you paint off, because your side have and produces a lot of troops as well.
And the the Infernos ? The time they come I was able to always receive them with the team of 12 troops (The two heroes you use them) and leave in my original basis another 12 defenders and in all my secundary basis ( I needed 2 to finish this one) 4 troops. Not to say the Human camp. All the time the infernnos come I could produce more troops to attack all time. I was never outnumbered there.
No, You do not even know what Eredars can do and how many are then and you ASSUME they outnumber ME. Funny,
bah, read one of the books please. Read MY POSTS please.Since then they have not appointed another person to do it. However, if you're going to bring in the Valar, then I think it's rather fair for me to bring in the Titans as well, since neither have shown a propensity for interfereing with mortal affairs.
The valars interference reduced each age but even in the LoTR time they did. Gandalf is a proof of that.
The Valars directly guide, protect, attack, punish the Elfs and humans ALL the two previous ages. You bring the Titans - even in a nitpicking , they never been seen in the WC I,II,III - because you can bring a unknow thing which we have no stats or examples of actions to balance the Valars and Maias. This is the Q being bring in by Trekkies!
I must tell you something, even without Valars the first ages ME would resist Archimonde and WC. The elfs then are almost god-like beings.
All the elfs are already immortals. And its not true. The Demonhunt is a single elf. They do not call other demons, he was cast away.And like I said...the Older Elves do not have to power to raise the dead, resurrect the dead, summon demons from another world, call nature to rain (and have the rain heal you), summon trees to fight for them, etc. Exactly what powers do the older elves have that make them so much better?
Making tree fight - Cenarius big trick - is ridiculous, hence what a Ent can do in ME. Using a scroll to bring dead back is not a power they do. A Elf in ME can make all his kingdom invisible, can cause floods, created the sun...if things like this are for you the same thing WC can do...
This is turning cyclical. You already have said that ME is more strong but the problem is the outnumering troops...
And what we see ? There is no evidence of outnumering troops...
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Master of Ossus
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The Numenorians are not "humans" in our sense of the word. They easily live for centuries and have magic far beyond our own. They are stronger, smarter, faster, and more powerful than any of us. Even Lord Elrond was impressed with their strength.D.Turtle wrote:About Morgoth and his strength:
He wasn't a very powerful fighter, he was a very cunning manipulator.
Fact is, he fought against a human (ok, it was one of the best human fighters ever, but still a human), and suffered wounds from which he never recovered, and after which he never fought again.
Also, Morgoth gave up most of his powers by creating the orcs, trolls and similar beings.
Sauron is very similar to Morgoth: He mainly manipulates, he doesn't fight that much. Remember, he manipulated the Numenorers(sp?), after seing that he couldn't defeat them (HUMANS!)!
Also about the speed of the Valar: Tulkas is the fastest, and can outrun a horse. Now tell me: what is a faster: someone outrunning a horse or a mass teleport to a place a couple of hundred kilometers away?
Incidentally, Sauron, Saruman, and the Balrog are not Valar or Maia. They are less powerful than either, by a bunch. I am not sure of who would win, but those were two mistakes that I thought I had to point out.
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Latinum Star Recipient; Hacker's Cross Award Winner
"one soler flar can vapririze the planit or malt the nickl in lass than millasacit" -Bagara1000
"Happiness is just a Flaming Moe away."
no, Master 
Sauron and Balrogs are Maias that Morgoth Corrupted already in the begining. This is stated in the Simarilion...
Saruman and Galdaf (and the others) are send by the Valars and they are usually said to be Maias as well, even if slighty different of the others...
Sauron and Balrogs are Maias that Morgoth Corrupted already in the begining. This is stated in the Simarilion...
Saruman and Galdaf (and the others) are send by the Valars and they are usually said to be Maias as well, even if slighty different of the others...
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Silver Paladin
- Padawan Learner
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Now I'm the person that cyclical?
The manual itself listed no less than 7 individual planets of individual under the control of the Burning Legion, but because we don't see them in Warcraft III, you want to assume they all live in 1 planet?
So basically, what you're saying is that you'll pick and choose manual versus gameplay based on which serves you best?
Because as you very well know in gameplay, there IS an Infinite amount of troops. Use the map Editor to give yourself control of Archimonde. Rain of Chaos. Repeat indefinitely. You need to pick 1 source of material (in my case, I pick the manual).
The Eredar does exactly what the Ring does. So what you're saying is that Sauron is no more powerful than Galadriel? And yes, Galadriel would not use demonic powers. That's why the Elves cannot hurt Archimonde, because they will not use demonic energies.
Medivh could see everything, past, present, future, and anywhere in addition to being immortal. Far Sight is ridiculously cheap, and at level 3, covers a ridiculously huge area (it's basically 1/4 of the map for the largets map size), and last nearly forever. And there's exactly 1 Sauron. How many Far Seers are there?
Divine Shield protects you from everything. It's basically a Potion of Invulnerability in spell form. And of course, you would drink the Potion prior to the Tsunami hitting. And unless the Tsunami is some sort of "Chaos" Tsunami, Achimonde will shrug it off and continue on his way.
The Earthquake destroys about 9-12 farms at a time (assuming they're tighting packed). I don't know how you use your Earthquakes, but mine works just fine. Death and Decay will kill any building, unit, etc. in 25 seconds, regardless of hit point/strength.
I suppose the Elves and Humans would run around without any weapons equipped? Remember, the Scroll of Town Portal is so utterly common that every hero starts off with one.
Tomes are extremely low level; I believe level 2 creeps drop them.
And of course, ME was so utterly creative when they stole the Elves from Scottish lore, the Dwarves from some other history (I know Phillipine folk lore has used Dwarves long before Tolkien came along; though I doubt he stole it from them, he probably took them from another source). I don't assume what the Eredar does; I have emunerated their abilities already. I assume what the Titans can do; namely, create planets and life.
And there is an entire planet of the Eredar which to destroy the Dragons with. Unless you wish to tell me that the Eredar, somehow in a fit of rage, destroyed their home planet?
The Paladin which raises 6 troops at a time? Which are far more numerous than the Valar?
What do you mean he uses only 1 kind of troops? We see:
1) Demons from Warcraft I
2) Flying Demons from Warcraft II
3) Inferno
4) Pit Lord
5) Eredar
6) Dread Lord
7) Felhound
Doom Guard
That's at least 8 seperate races.
Now you're making far out assumptions. Why would the Eredar destroy a race that they allied with under the auspice of the lord that they served?
And of course, Archimonde never had to face powerful beings...like the spirits of the planet allying them with him?
That is your opinion, which is fine, but it is by no means a fact.
Well, since WC3 has already proven that they can teleport through dimensions (albeit with limitations), and ME never has proven that, then shall we assume the WC3 wins simply because ME has no troops on the 3rd party battlefield?
The Burning Legion's grunt troop was the Inferno, which is a mini-me version of the Balrog. At the same time, the heroes of Warcraft III are actually immortals since they can't truely die. Heroes are magical in nature since birth. The Heroes can bring the dead back to life, animate the corpses of those that have fallen, teleport across great distances, etc. And like I said...if Gandalf, Sauron and Saruman are representative of the Maias...I'm sorry, being a Maia is no great advantage.
The One Ring corrupted and changed 9 people. An entire race? Humans, Elves and Dwarves look perfectly fine to me, even though their Lords became the Naz'ghul. Archimonde's attack is an area attack ability. And what's wrong with using spells or abilities? This is a COMBAT situation. Do you think Archimonde will say "Oh no, we better not use spells and abilities because it won't be fair?" What spells/abilities did Sauron demonstrate that was tremendously awestriking?
No, by outnumber, I mean they can produce an infinite amount of troops. Can ME raise troops as fast as the undead drop them from the sky and raise them from the ground? I know exactly what the Eredar can do. Their abilities are well defined in the World Editor. Bash, Finger of Death, Rain of Chaos, Magic Immunity, Dark Portal. You are the one assuming their abilities (or lack of thereof). I do not know how many Eredars there are, that is true. But I can assure you can an entire planet full of them, will be similar in size to ME. Toss in the additional planets of Infernos, Dread Lords...it's you who are stretching the imagination to think that 7 planet worth of troops won't outnumber 1.
Like I said, if Gandalf is representative of the Valar's power...oh boy, ME is fucked. Like I said, you claim all these great and wonderous abilities for the Valar and Maia...but when push comes to shove:
1) Gandalf can't do jack. He can't even stop a cave troll.
2) Sauron can't do jack. He gets stopped by a mortal human (though he was a "super human" so to speak)
3) Saruman can't do jack. He fights vicariously through his orcs.
The Elves can't do anything to the Eredar. They can't even hurt him.
By "Call Demons", I implied Rain of Chaos, Summon Inferno or Dark Portal. And there are many Demon hunters. "Demon Hunters are dark shadowy warriors" (note the plural form of warriors). Illidan was merely one of them. And can the Elves raise a dead human? Or Orc? Or Dwarf?
A Elf in ME can make all his kingdom invisible, - And WC3 can see that invisible kingdom with Gem of True Seeing (so commonplace that even merchants sell them), Far Sight, Owl Scout, Flare, Crystal Orb, Magical Sentry, etc.
can cause floods, - WC3 can cause Earthquakes, control nature (Entangle, Force of Nature, Lightning Shield, Tranquility, etc.)
No, I said ME is stronger overall. However, WC3 is stronger in COMBAT. That's the difference. WC3's spells and abilities are all combat orientated. ME's is not. And of course, you have this strange belief that all of ME's spells will somehow penetrate through the Magic Immunity that WC3 has, even though it has been proven that it's the exception, not the rule.
The manual itself listed no less than 7 individual planets of individual under the control of the Burning Legion, but because we don't see them in Warcraft III, you want to assume they all live in 1 planet?
So basically, what you're saying is that you'll pick and choose manual versus gameplay based on which serves you best?
Because as you very well know in gameplay, there IS an Infinite amount of troops. Use the map Editor to give yourself control of Archimonde. Rain of Chaos. Repeat indefinitely. You need to pick 1 source of material (in my case, I pick the manual).
The Eredar does exactly what the Ring does. So what you're saying is that Sauron is no more powerful than Galadriel? And yes, Galadriel would not use demonic powers. That's why the Elves cannot hurt Archimonde, because they will not use demonic energies.
Medivh could see everything, past, present, future, and anywhere in addition to being immortal. Far Sight is ridiculously cheap, and at level 3, covers a ridiculously huge area (it's basically 1/4 of the map for the largets map size), and last nearly forever. And there's exactly 1 Sauron. How many Far Seers are there?
Divine Shield protects you from everything. It's basically a Potion of Invulnerability in spell form. And of course, you would drink the Potion prior to the Tsunami hitting. And unless the Tsunami is some sort of "Chaos" Tsunami, Achimonde will shrug it off and continue on his way.
The Earthquake destroys about 9-12 farms at a time (assuming they're tighting packed). I don't know how you use your Earthquakes, but mine works just fine. Death and Decay will kill any building, unit, etc. in 25 seconds, regardless of hit point/strength.
I suppose the Elves and Humans would run around without any weapons equipped? Remember, the Scroll of Town Portal is so utterly common that every hero starts off with one.
Tomes are extremely low level; I believe level 2 creeps drop them.
And of course, ME was so utterly creative when they stole the Elves from Scottish lore, the Dwarves from some other history (I know Phillipine folk lore has used Dwarves long before Tolkien came along; though I doubt he stole it from them, he probably took them from another source). I don't assume what the Eredar does; I have emunerated their abilities already. I assume what the Titans can do; namely, create planets and life.
And there is an entire planet of the Eredar which to destroy the Dragons with. Unless you wish to tell me that the Eredar, somehow in a fit of rage, destroyed their home planet?
The Paladin which raises 6 troops at a time? Which are far more numerous than the Valar?
What do you mean he uses only 1 kind of troops? We see:
1) Demons from Warcraft I
2) Flying Demons from Warcraft II
3) Inferno
4) Pit Lord
5) Eredar
6) Dread Lord
7) Felhound
Doom GuardThat's at least 8 seperate races.
Now you're making far out assumptions. Why would the Eredar destroy a race that they allied with under the auspice of the lord that they served?
And of course, Archimonde never had to face powerful beings...like the spirits of the planet allying them with him?
That is your opinion, which is fine, but it is by no means a fact.
Well, since WC3 has already proven that they can teleport through dimensions (albeit with limitations), and ME never has proven that, then shall we assume the WC3 wins simply because ME has no troops on the 3rd party battlefield?
The Burning Legion's grunt troop was the Inferno, which is a mini-me version of the Balrog. At the same time, the heroes of Warcraft III are actually immortals since they can't truely die. Heroes are magical in nature since birth. The Heroes can bring the dead back to life, animate the corpses of those that have fallen, teleport across great distances, etc. And like I said...if Gandalf, Sauron and Saruman are representative of the Maias...I'm sorry, being a Maia is no great advantage.
The One Ring corrupted and changed 9 people. An entire race? Humans, Elves and Dwarves look perfectly fine to me, even though their Lords became the Naz'ghul. Archimonde's attack is an area attack ability. And what's wrong with using spells or abilities? This is a COMBAT situation. Do you think Archimonde will say "Oh no, we better not use spells and abilities because it won't be fair?" What spells/abilities did Sauron demonstrate that was tremendously awestriking?
No, by outnumber, I mean they can produce an infinite amount of troops. Can ME raise troops as fast as the undead drop them from the sky and raise them from the ground? I know exactly what the Eredar can do. Their abilities are well defined in the World Editor. Bash, Finger of Death, Rain of Chaos, Magic Immunity, Dark Portal. You are the one assuming their abilities (or lack of thereof). I do not know how many Eredars there are, that is true. But I can assure you can an entire planet full of them, will be similar in size to ME. Toss in the additional planets of Infernos, Dread Lords...it's you who are stretching the imagination to think that 7 planet worth of troops won't outnumber 1.
Like I said, if Gandalf is representative of the Valar's power...oh boy, ME is fucked. Like I said, you claim all these great and wonderous abilities for the Valar and Maia...but when push comes to shove:
1) Gandalf can't do jack. He can't even stop a cave troll.
2) Sauron can't do jack. He gets stopped by a mortal human (though he was a "super human" so to speak)
3) Saruman can't do jack. He fights vicariously through his orcs.
The Elves can't do anything to the Eredar. They can't even hurt him.
By "Call Demons", I implied Rain of Chaos, Summon Inferno or Dark Portal. And there are many Demon hunters. "Demon Hunters are dark shadowy warriors" (note the plural form of warriors). Illidan was merely one of them. And can the Elves raise a dead human? Or Orc? Or Dwarf?
A Elf in ME can make all his kingdom invisible, - And WC3 can see that invisible kingdom with Gem of True Seeing (so commonplace that even merchants sell them), Far Sight, Owl Scout, Flare, Crystal Orb, Magical Sentry, etc.
can cause floods, - WC3 can cause Earthquakes, control nature (Entangle, Force of Nature, Lightning Shield, Tranquility, etc.)
No, I said ME is stronger overall. However, WC3 is stronger in COMBAT. That's the difference. WC3's spells and abilities are all combat orientated. ME's is not. And of course, you have this strange belief that all of ME's spells will somehow penetrate through the Magic Immunity that WC3 has, even though it has been proven that it's the exception, not the rule.
This doesn't change a few facts:The Numenorians are not "humans" in our sense of the word. They easily live for centuries and have magic far beyond our own. They are stronger, smarter, faster, and more powerful than any of us. Even Lord Elrond was impressed with their strength.
1. Eventhough they are "superhumans", they are still mortals.
2. Morgoth once was the second most powerful being in the univers (weaker only than Illuvator himself). BUT: I have to admit (and did already) that he gave up a lot of his power to create the orcs, balrogs, and other dark beings.
So we have a "superhuman" seriously wound a "weak god" in ME.
However I also have to admit the following: When Morgoth wasn't already weakened (as in the very beginning of the world), he could do some amazing things: Dfeat all of the other Valar (only when Tulkas came was Morgoth defeated). He destroyed the first lights of the world (which the other Valar created). And he did many other amazing things.
The thing is: It seems to me that the more time passes, the weaker the different Valar became. One explanation could be, that they could do many things only once (as is said when the two trees are destroyed). Also, we do not know how much time passes in the beginning of the Silmarillion (Morgoth is imprisoned for 3 Ages, but how long is an Age?), so it could be, that they accomplished alot, but also took a lot of time to do it.
Igot: I can't remember, but can Sauron see Frodo whenever he wears the ring (in the books)? lt doesn't seem logial, because:
1. Bilbo wore the ring several times, which would have told Sauron immediately where the ring is. The same with Gollum, though Sauron WAS weaker at that time.
2. Frodo (and Sam too) wore the ring INSIDE Mordor. Now, if Sauron could immediately see them, I wonder how they weren't found.
About the creation of the Sun: The VALARS were amazed and AFRAID of what happened there. The VALARS couldn'T create the Sun, it took the power of something far stronger than VALARS to create it.
About the kingdom go invisible and not detected: Which Kingdom do you mean? I only remember Gondolin (I think) which was hidden in the mountains (though not magically, it was defended by the eagles killing all of Morgoths spies). Or do you mean Doriath, which was protected by a magical barrier (however by a Maia, not an Elf).
Gandalf was NOT a wise man. He and the other Istari (Sorcerers) were Maias.
Balrogs are corrupted Maias.
What entire race did Sauron control through the ring, without having to move?
About the planets that the Burning Legion controls: Where does it say that?
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Master of Ossus
- Darkest Knight
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D'OH! I meant that they were not Valar. Damn, that's one of the worst mistakes I've ever made. I'm not doing very well on this thread, am I? Sorry about that.lgot wrote:no, Master
Sauron and Balrogs are Maias that Morgoth Corrupted already in the begining. This is stated in the Simarilion...
Saruman and Galdaf (and the others) are send by the Valars and they are usually said to be Maias as well, even if slighty different of the others...
"Sometimes I think you WANT us to fail." "Shut up, just shut up!" -Two Guys from Kabul
Latinum Star Recipient; Hacker's Cross Award Winner
"one soler flar can vapririze the planit or malt the nickl in lass than millasacit" -Bagara1000
"Happiness is just a Flaming Moe away."
Latinum Star Recipient; Hacker's Cross Award Winner
"one soler flar can vapririze the planit or malt the nickl in lass than millasacit" -Bagara1000
"Happiness is just a Flaming Moe away."
Silver Paladin:
Yes, it turned cyclical...
You have once said that you would not consider the normal troops facing the valars because the valars would wipe them out, but now you insist againt with the paladins x valar, You claimed they ME was stronger and the only problem would be the outnumbering and yet you return insist to compare the spells again, you insist with that i said there is no 7 planets, when i let clear already that they are destroyed in the same way kalimor would be, you try to create a polemic about the manual and the gameplaining but in the manual is never said that the 7 planets are used like a colony giving them a great ammount of troops either, thefore not coming in conflict with the gaming where Archimonde had to use the Undead and local help to wipe out before even starting to send the demonic forces (Yeah 8 diff species of 7 different planets. A Very Little, a selection), You return to the immunity question when its clear you have no idea if ME magic would break it or not (but you are quick to think WC magic will do that for ME magic) again, you still think you do assume anything, when you say you do not know how many but you can assure there is a full planets of them...It became cyclical and I think we should meet each other in another topic and finish our argument about this one right here.
Perhaps we can start one in how Toril together would wipe the floor with both ME and WC together
D.Turtle:
No Denial that Morgoth constant defeats was a show of him losing power and that ME timeline is clear a progressive abandon of the most powerful to the normal (At the end of the LoTR) almost all that was magical and powerful left the land. That was the purpose of the Tolkien after all...In the first ages the Valars are much more present, so are the Maias and the Elfs are much more powerful and epics. No shame to notice the most powerful beings in the LoTR are from that time like Elrond (Which is a bit later), Galadriel, Sauron, the balrog, Tom, and even the Istaris who are maias...
its actually a sad tale about magic being lost and forget.
Well, the Spectres could sense the ring and that was why he saw the Eye of Sauron when using it, to show Sauron searching of it and one of the reasons the ring is not very used ,to make hard to be found...
Now I suppose the Sauron weakness was the reason of him not founding the ring before (Doesnt the first book starts with Gandalf worried with the return of Sauron ?) and if I am not mistakes, its said that Gollum was very found of the ring, but rarely used it and that was the reason the Ring picked the chance to run off. Now in the Mordor final scenes I cannt remember but I suppose the reason is Sauron being busy with the war and that he actually see in his tower unable to do anything the final fight with gollum and the ring destruction ?
It have been sometime since i read it last time, but seems like it.
The Sun is one of Simarilions in Earendil (sp?) Sailing boat...It was made by a elf, like i said. But the Simarilion was not created by something more powerful than Valars. I mean the creation of the simarillion not it turning in the star.
My Mistake about the Kingdom and Doriath. You correct there.
You can scroll up and see that several times i said Gandalf and Saruman are maias. Was wise mean i meant what kind of maia he was, a sage not a warrior in response to gandalf lack of skill in combat but great mental skills.
In Tolkien's letter he said Sauron used the ring to corrupt the Numenors and cause their fall.
Not to say the one ring would be able to control the head of the elfs if they havent noticed Sauron plan and run away. That would be enough. (Remember , one ring to control them all ?)
Master of Ossus:
Heh, happens...All those elfs...
Yes, it turned cyclical...
You have once said that you would not consider the normal troops facing the valars because the valars would wipe them out, but now you insist againt with the paladins x valar, You claimed they ME was stronger and the only problem would be the outnumbering and yet you return insist to compare the spells again, you insist with that i said there is no 7 planets, when i let clear already that they are destroyed in the same way kalimor would be, you try to create a polemic about the manual and the gameplaining but in the manual is never said that the 7 planets are used like a colony giving them a great ammount of troops either, thefore not coming in conflict with the gaming where Archimonde had to use the Undead and local help to wipe out before even starting to send the demonic forces (Yeah 8 diff species of 7 different planets. A Very Little, a selection), You return to the immunity question when its clear you have no idea if ME magic would break it or not (but you are quick to think WC magic will do that for ME magic) again, you still think you do assume anything, when you say you do not know how many but you can assure there is a full planets of them...It became cyclical and I think we should meet each other in another topic and finish our argument about this one right here.
Perhaps we can start one in how Toril together would wipe the floor with both ME and WC together
D.Turtle:
No Denial that Morgoth constant defeats was a show of him losing power and that ME timeline is clear a progressive abandon of the most powerful to the normal (At the end of the LoTR) almost all that was magical and powerful left the land. That was the purpose of the Tolkien after all...In the first ages the Valars are much more present, so are the Maias and the Elfs are much more powerful and epics. No shame to notice the most powerful beings in the LoTR are from that time like Elrond (Which is a bit later), Galadriel, Sauron, the balrog, Tom, and even the Istaris who are maias...
its actually a sad tale about magic being lost and forget.
Well, the Spectres could sense the ring and that was why he saw the Eye of Sauron when using it, to show Sauron searching of it and one of the reasons the ring is not very used ,to make hard to be found...
Now I suppose the Sauron weakness was the reason of him not founding the ring before (Doesnt the first book starts with Gandalf worried with the return of Sauron ?) and if I am not mistakes, its said that Gollum was very found of the ring, but rarely used it and that was the reason the Ring picked the chance to run off. Now in the Mordor final scenes I cannt remember but I suppose the reason is Sauron being busy with the war and that he actually see in his tower unable to do anything the final fight with gollum and the ring destruction ?
It have been sometime since i read it last time, but seems like it.
The Sun is one of Simarilions in Earendil (sp?) Sailing boat...It was made by a elf, like i said. But the Simarilion was not created by something more powerful than Valars. I mean the creation of the simarillion not it turning in the star.
My Mistake about the Kingdom and Doriath. You correct there.
You can scroll up and see that several times i said Gandalf and Saruman are maias. Was wise mean i meant what kind of maia he was, a sage not a warrior in response to gandalf lack of skill in combat but great mental skills.
In Tolkien's letter he said Sauron used the ring to corrupt the Numenors and cause their fall.
Not to say the one ring would be able to control the head of the elfs if they havent noticed Sauron plan and run away. That would be enough. (Remember , one ring to control them all ?)
Master of Ossus:
Heh, happens...All those elfs...
Muffin is food. Food is good. I am a Muffin. I am good.
This is nice: A debate where both sides actually listen
Ill have to check the Silamrillion again to see about the downfall of the Numerorians, as I'm not really sure how exactly everything happened there.
About Sauron and the Nazgul always knowing where the ring is when worn: Why didn't they know where the ring was, when Sam wore it inside Mordor?
But I'll have to check again to see how Sauron suddenly knew where Frodo and the Ring was just before Gollum destroyed the Ring.
About the wise men: Ok, now I understand how you meant that
However it seems like all Magic and the powerful beings (like Valars and Maia) don't really use their powers directly for combat (with the exception of Tulkas).
However one thing is wrong: The Sun is NOT one of the Silmaril!
Ill have to answer totally when I'm at home, as then I can quote (and translate from German
) directly from the books.
This is how much I can recall right know: The Sun is encased by the last fruit of one of the Two Trees. In it is light or something, but I'm not really sure what, I'll have to check the book.
The moon is made from the last fruit (or flower?) from the other of the Two Trees.
And I'll have to ask again: Where in the Manual does it say that the Burning Legion controls 7 planets (or at least 7 planets)?
I just want to find the passage
Ill have to check the Silamrillion again to see about the downfall of the Numerorians, as I'm not really sure how exactly everything happened there.
About Sauron and the Nazgul always knowing where the ring is when worn: Why didn't they know where the ring was, when Sam wore it inside Mordor?
But I'll have to check again to see how Sauron suddenly knew where Frodo and the Ring was just before Gollum destroyed the Ring.
About the wise men: Ok, now I understand how you meant that
However it seems like all Magic and the powerful beings (like Valars and Maia) don't really use their powers directly for combat (with the exception of Tulkas).
However one thing is wrong: The Sun is NOT one of the Silmaril!
Ill have to answer totally when I'm at home, as then I can quote (and translate from German
) directly from the books.This is how much I can recall right know: The Sun is encased by the last fruit of one of the Two Trees. In it is light or something, but I'm not really sure what, I'll have to check the book.
The moon is made from the last fruit (or flower?) from the other of the Two Trees.
And I'll have to ask again: Where in the Manual does it say that the Burning Legion controls 7 planets (or at least 7 planets)?
I just want to find the passage
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Silver Paladin
- Padawan Learner
- Posts: 158
- Joined: 2002-08-27 05:05am
Well, heros aren't exactly normal units, since they have magic resistance (I believe spells deal 25% less damage to them, and last 80% shorter (very noticible on spells like Storm Bolt or Entangle) and they can't die. BTW, when I referred to the Dread Lords having magic resistance, this is what I meant.lgot wrote:Silver Paladin:
Yes, it turned cyclical...
You have once said that you would not consider the normal troops facing the valars because the valars would wipe them out, but now you insist againt with the paladins x valar, You claimed they ME was stronger and the only problem would be the outnumbering and yet you return insist to compare the spells again, you insist with that i said there is no 7 planets, when i let clear already that they are destroyed in the same way kalimor would be, you try to create a polemic about the manual and the gameplaining but in the manual is never said that the 7 planets are used like a colony giving them a great ammount of troops either, thefore not coming in conflict with the gaming where Archimonde had to use the Undead and local help to wipe out before even starting to send the demonic forces (Yeah 8 diff species of 7 different planets. A Very Little, a selection), You return to the immunity question when its clear you have no idea if ME magic would break it or not (but you are quick to think WC magic will do that for ME magic) again, you still think you do assume anything, when you say you do not know how many but you can assure there is a full planets of them...It became cyclical and I think we should meet each other in another topic and finish our argument about this one right here.
Perhaps we can start one in how Toril together would wipe the floor with both ME and WC together
.
But I agree. It seems like we're not really getting anywhere in this debate, and it would be a good place to end it. It's been nice debating with you!
BTW, Ansalon would wipe Toril out.
D.Turtle:
But for example, Balrogs are pretty much the fight kind of maia...Since they are spirits of everything ,they are probally of all kind...
Now that you talk seems like two maias get the fruits to do that...
Silver Paladin:
its a debate, not a war...This is nice: A debate where both sides actually listen
That was found in Tolkien's letters, not really in the Silmarillion. (Basically Sauron corrupted the realm when he was a prisioner there making them feel too much proud for they advancement and jealous of the elfs)Ill have to check the Silamrillion again to see about the downfall of the Numerorians, as I'm not really sure how exactly everything happened there.
I imagine there must be because he was busy or the Nazgul being in the battlefield...I remember they chasing the rings always when it was used and Frodo afraid of Sauron's ever watchful eye...About Sauron and the Nazgul always knowing where the ring is when worn: Why didn't they know where the ring was, when Sam wore it inside Mordor?
But I'll have to check again to see how Sauron suddenly knew where Frodo and the Ring was just before Gollum destroyed the Ring.
Well, the Valars actually do not fight much, after all there is not against whom to fight but Morgoth and he avoided them...But there is some instances that Morgoth fought, but like we know, he only did that in extreme sittuations since he also know his best skills are in his mind, not in his muscles...However it seems like all Magic and the powerful beings (like Valars and Maia) don't really use their powers directly for combat (with the exception of Tulkas).
But for example, Balrogs are pretty much the fight kind of maia...Since they are spirits of everything ,they are probally of all kind...
Perhaps saying that its is the sun is a mistake. But its a star that shine every morning when the Earendil sails...However one thing is wrong: The Sun is NOT one of the Silmaril!
Ill have to answer totally when I'm at home, as then I can quote (and translate from German ) directly from the books.
Now that you talk seems like two maias get the fruits to do that...
The Silmarils are made from the light of the tree of light as well.This is how much I can recall right know: The Sun is encased by the last fruit of one of the Two Trees. In it is light or something, but I'm not really sure what, I'll have to check the book.
The moon is made from the last fruit (or flower?) from the other of the Two Trees.
yes, Then that mortal dude who wanted to marry Luthien (sp?) had to get one to be allowed to do that and with help of her, he did got one, but that big wolf outside the castle who ate his hand with the silmarillion. They later returned,killed the wolf and the couple (he died but Luthien made the Valars bring him back) took care of the silmarilion in their isle but when both died the silmarilion returned. when morgoth was defeated all the jewels are recovered...one gone with Earandil that sailed to meet the valar with her, the other are lost: The last sons of faenor got crazy because the quest to recover it and one jumped in fire chasm with the jewel and the other throwed it in the deep of the ocean...Something like this.Oh, one more thing about the Silmaril:
Morgoth had all three in his crown. I'll check again how he lost them all, but he still had them when the Sun was created.
Silver Paladin:
This, i Think not even a army of Kenders can doBTW, Ansalon would wipe Toril out.
Muffin is food. Food is good. I am a Muffin. I am good.
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Corran Horn
- Youngling
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fgalkin
- Carvin' Marvin
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