Are redshirts the standard Federation ARMY troops?

The Albino Raven · Post by **The Albino Raven** » 2003-05-02 10:44pm

I simply have never seen much, if any mention, of a Federation Army force. It is obvious that redshirts are members of starfleet, but would they also be the average man in an army. In this case, I would doubt it. In the 24th century, surely army technology is superior to that of redshirts, and, from what I can tell, having redshirts as the basis of an army is like having USN seamen/USAF Pilots as soldiers in a ground war. Would someone who knows about this please enlighten me.

Darksider · Post by **Darksider** » 2003-05-02 11:21pm

Given the fact that all that's ever seen performing ground combat in the DS9/VOY era is the Redshirts i'd say so. The problem with the federation military is that it is composed of a bunch of pacifist weenies who let small children live on military starships. Anyone who tried to use today's military tactics or weapons like armord vehicles or artillary would probably be thrown out of starfleet for "barbaric practices". The extreme pacifist nature of the federation means that ground army technologies have not only not improved, but have virtually dissapeared altogether (Read the Ground weapons essay on the main site for more info)

The Albino Raven · Post by **The Albino Raven** » 2003-05-02 11:37pm

I still find it hard to believe that a massive humanoid empire of the 24th centrury would use starfleet members, the equivalent of NAVY seamen, as a ground army force. Even saying that the Federation is a "bunch of pacifist weenies" wouldn't mean that they would abandon all logic and use stupid, suicidal millitary tactics. Just because the show focuses on the Naval aspect of 24th century comabt doesnt mean ground battles simply dont take place anymore. Again, any evidence otherwise, Im glad to know, in order to set me straight

Lord of the Farce · Post by **Lord of the Farce** » 2003-05-02 11:43pm

Fremen_Muhadib wrote:I still find it hard to believe that a massive humanoid empire of the 24th centrury would use starfleet members, the equivalent of NAVY seamen, as a ground army force. Even saying that the Federation is a "bunch of pacifist weenies" wouldn't mean that they would abandon all logic and use stupid, suicidal millitary tactics. Just because the show focuses on the Naval aspect of 24th century comabt doesnt mean ground battles simply dont take place anymore. Again, any evidence otherwise, Im glad to know, in order to set me straight

Go look at the Seige of AR-(###), where one of the most important installation of the Dominion War is located. Who are the people guarding it? And who are the people who described that place as the "front-lines"? I didn't recall any dedicated army force there, did you?

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-05-02 11:44pm

No. A true "army" does not exist.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-05-03 01:25am

It is retarded to use redshirts for the army but that's what they do. Every instance of ground combat has been redshirts, the most we've seen is some extra gear. We've never seen a proper army even in situations where we should have. Therefore it doesn't exist.

It's simply a matter of the Federation systematically dismanteling their military due to their extreme pacifism. They simply cut the military to the bone. They don't even have the marginally adequate equipment of the TOS era. The UFP is just a bunch of stupid space hippies.

Oberleutnant · Post by **Oberleutnant** » 2003-05-03 07:56am

I have a theory about the matter.

In TOS-era movies Starfleet equips its security forces with some sort of special protection. Although by today's standards this is nothing spectacular, it's light years ahead of what we see in modern Trek.

I believe we can all agree that Starfleet had taken a much more militaristic approach after the events in The Motion Picture, apparently because of the hostilies with the Klingons. Perhaps during this time Starfleet established dedicated ground troops, or at least improved the equipment of its security forces (armoured security personnel, "riot shields" used by Federation troops that attacked Paradise City, etc). During the Starfleet meetings in Star Trek VI we see clearly how high-ranking Starfleet officers consider Starfleet a military organisation. We also have Colonel West, whose rank is rather uncommon in Trek.

After the Khitomer peace treaty the situation calmed a lot and Starfleet changed its priority back to exploration of space...

BTW, shouldn't this thread be in Pure Trek?

Enola Straight · Post by **Enola Straight** » 2003-05-03 10:57am

In a cut scene from ST6 The Undiscovered Country A Starfleet Colonel (actor Rene Aujerbonois (sp?)) outlines a top secret plan to the UFP President to rescue Captain Kirk from the Klingon Prison planet.

This supposedly hints at an Army or Marine component of Naval Starfleet.

Btw, I always thought of Security Redshirts as Military Police.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-05-03 11:05am

Enola Straight wrote:In a cut scene from ST6 The Undiscovered Country A Starfleet Colonel (actor Rene Aujerbonois (sp?)) outlines a top secret plan to the UFP President to rescue Captain Kirk from the Klingon Prison planet.

This supposedly hints at an Army or Marine component of Naval Starfleet.

It's possible. But it's only hints rather than hard facts. We've had a few ambiguous implications like that yet when it comes down to it we've only seen redshirts.

And that doesn't even begin to address the military decline from TOS to the TNG/TNG+ era. It's clear that even if they had marines they don't any more.

Kerneth · Post by **Kerneth** » 2003-05-03 11:06am

Enola Straight wrote:In a cut scene from ST6 The Undiscovered Country A Starfleet Colonel (actor Rene Aujerbonois (sp?)) outlines a top secret plan to the UFP President to rescue Captain Kirk from the Klingon Prison planet.

This supposedly hints at an Army or Marine component of Naval Starfleet.

Btw, I always thought of Security Redshirts as Military Police.

They are military police, the UFP just uses them for ground combat troops as well. It's part of the whole non-specialist, pacifistic, "But if we have ground troops people will think we're going to invade them!" mindset of Star Trek TNG and onwards.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2003-05-03 02:46pm

The Federation does not have a dedicated ground army. They instead relie on their ship security personnel to do their ground asault work. The reasons for this are not explained so is left to simply speculation. Its true though that the TOS era has better gound weapons(morters, heavy fire support weapons, Phasr rifles, and better ergonomics on their handguns). but in both eras we never see any ground combat vehicles! Klingons drop thier weapons to run into melee rang to attack with bathleths, ect. All I can say is that the Federation is lucky that no empire they fight has ground weapons either!

HappyTarget · Post by **HappyTarget** » 2003-05-03 04:01pm

The Federation does not have a dedicated ground army. They instead relie on their ship security personnel to do their ground asault work.

Yep. Sorta like using cops for infantry and Spec Ops forces. Very very stupid. While groundside forces should logically be small in number, the Federation should spare no expence to both equip and train them. It's just good fortune that the Federation's enemies are about as incompetant in this regard as they are.

They are military police, the UFP just uses them for ground combat troops as well. It's part of the whole non-specialist, pacifistic, "But if we have ground troops people will think we're going to invade them!" mindset of Star Trek TNG and onwards.

Yep. Hippy mindset rearing it's ugly head. Heck, they even regularly use shipboard personnel for covert missions of which specially trained Spec Op people would be infinately better suited for. Why would one take a starships Captain, CMO and CTO and use them as a covert strike team? Just so we can hear Picard say "There are THREE lights!" ? (admittedly a cool line, but a starship captain should never have been placed in that particualr situation to begin with.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2003-05-03 04:23pm

Also Federation Security Personnel could not stop 6 Feringi from taking over the Enterprise in "Rascals"! Totally Incompitant, in that episode the only people who were carring weapons were on the bridge! And to top it off Worf could not hit the feringi who beamed onto the bridge and he was the only one who seem to even pull his weapon or have one at all! there are what 6 people on the bridge that Feringi should have been hit from several angles even before the second Feringi even entered te bridge!

Admiral Johnason · Post by **Admiral Johnason** » 2003-05-04 12:16am

Why do we still call them redshirts, they where yellow now.

I even think that the casualities are droping in the newer series.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-05-04 12:41am

Admiral Johnason wrote:Why do we still call them redshirts, they where yellow now.

Tradition. *shrug* Everyone knows what it means.

Admiral Johnason · Post by **Admiral Johnason** » 2003-05-04 12:59am

Stormbringer wrote:
Admiral Johnason wrote:Why do we still call them redshirts, they where yellow now.
Tradition. *shrug* Everyone knows what it means.

Cannonfodder and disposable cameaos/extras

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2003-05-04 01:13am

Kerneth wrote:They are military police, the UFP just uses them for ground combat troops as well. It's part of the whole non-specialist, pacifistic, "But if we have ground troops people will think we're going to invade them!" mindset of Star Trek TNG and onwards.

The saddest part of this is that military police are even better equipped and armed than they are.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-05-04 01:27am

PainRack wrote: The saddest part of this is that military police are even better equipped and armed than they are.

I'd say the weapons and training given to USAF ground crews is better. Can't you just imagine what would happen if Red shirts beamed down to Crete in 1941? The island would spawn rivers from the blood.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2003-05-04 02:31am

Sea Skimmer wrote:
PainRack wrote: The saddest part of this is that military police are even better equipped and armed than they are.
I'd say the weapons and training given to USAF ground crews is better. Can't you just imagine what would happen if Red shirts beamed down to Crete in 1941? The island would spawn rivers from the blood.

[uber trekkie mode]no they wouldn't they would beam down right behind the gunners and stun them all. It would be a bloodless victory for the Federation[/uber trekkie mode]

If that was true then the German paratroopers should have had no trouble taking the Island but they lost thousands. The problem with Trek armies is they relie so much on thier transporters that they have no tacticle sense at all. Why send in your most prestigious officers to destroy a Cardie Superweapon? I would have found it odd that it would be so close to the Federation's territory that they would build such a facility. I also find it odd that the this is exactally matches the specializtion of the commanding officer of the Enterprise which is established would lead any Federation responce to a Cardie attack! And no one thought of this, were did their brains go?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-05-04 02:47am

Admiral Johnason wrote:Why do we still call them redshirts, they where yellow now.

The old redshirts were for hiding the blood when they got wounded. The new yellow shirts are for hiding the urine when the new improved wussy brand of security guards piss themselves in fear.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2003-05-04 02:50am

They may have had yellow redshirts (

) on DS9, but the redshirts by the time of Nemesis wore gray.

JodoForce · Post by **JodoForce** » 2003-05-04 03:59am

Isolder74 wrote:The Federation does not have a dedicated ground army. They instead relie on their ship security personnel to do their ground asault work. The reasons for this are not explained so is left to simply speculation. Its true though that the TOS era has better gound weapons(morters, heavy fire support weapons, Phasr rifles, and better ergonomics on their handguns). but in both eras we never see any ground combat vehicles! Klingons drop thier weapons to run into melee rang to attack with bathleths, ect. All I can say is that the Federation is lucky that no empire they fight has ground weapons either!

The UFP drops their tanks and armor to use handguns and redshirts, the Klingons drop their handguns to use their Bat'leths... they're all Luddites in one way or another

I bet they abandoned long range space combat becoz it was too high tech too

Lord of the Farce · Post by **Lord of the Farce** » 2003-05-04 04:07am

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:They may have had yellow redshirts ( ) on DS9, but the redshirts by the time of Nemesis wore gray.

That's because they now become petrified with fear, LOL.

Joe Momma · Post by **Joe Momma** » 2003-05-04 04:12am

Darth Wong wrote:The old redshirts were for hiding the blood when they got wounded. The new yellow shirts are for hiding the urine when the new improved wussy brand of security guards piss themselves in fear.

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:They may have had yellow redshirts ( ) on DS9, but the redshirts by the time of Nemesis wore gray.

The gray shirts are hiding their ashen expressions when they realize they're being sent into combat with inadequate weapons and training YET AGAIN even though the Feds have supposedly been preparing for war ever since "Q Who".

-- Joe Momma
"How the fuck do I get out of this chickenshit outfit?" takes on a whole new meaning...

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-05-04 11:19am

Darth Wong wrote: The old redshirts were for hiding the blood when they got wounded. The new yellow shirts are for hiding the urine when the new improved wussy brand of security guards piss themselves in fear.

Blue black would work better in the case of the former