The scope and size of the SW Galaxy and the Empire

Executor · Post by **Executor** » 2003-05-02 04:58pm

We have several sources that indicate the scope and size of the SW Galaxy and the Empires Military forces. We have a WEG book giving us the galaxies population of 100 quadrillion and 51 million systems, we have WEG giving us 25000 ISD's, the EP1 VD giving us a thousand sectors in the galaxy. The WEG Imperial Sourcebook indicates more then a thousand sectors, which would also indicate more ISD, other ships and more troops.

All of these seem very very low for a civilisation covering the great majority of the galaxy. Surley these numbers would be vastly increased.
I set some numbers down to go with order of battles I am currentley in the process of doing, these OoB's are considerable bigger then any other I have seen, but they are tiny when put against the population of the galaxy.

I increased the Population to around 200 Quintrillion, around 68 miilion worlds (member and colonies) and several billion other worlds such as Tattooine (which is just basically useless) and mining worlds. Now to get a number for the Empires military we would need the human population percentage figure, I have never seen one in any sources apart from them mentioning that humans are the most numerous species. I used 7 % for some reason. This still gives and average of around 9 trillion for each of the other 20 million species in the galaxy.

With the 7 % it gave a figure of around 11.5 quintrillion, from this divided it by 100 and times it by 0.74. The 0.74 is the percentage of the humans p[opulation in the military, I increased it from the 0.42 of the population of the UK in the Armed forces(I made it 3/4 bigger)

This ended up giving me a total for the Empires armed forces of around 85 Quadrillion troops, I adjusted my order of battles to get to around this figure, multiplying them by several times. The end results field an army of 56 quadrillion, stormtroopers of around 26 quadrillion and the rest in the navy, it also resulted in around 36 trillion ships and stations, everything from executor class to golan weapons platfroms to tug boots and blastboat (but does not iinclude shuttles and fighters.

Now I know the figures are very very high, and im not claiming that it is the level of armed forces of the empire, but for the size of the galaxy the small percentage of the human population (if a number above is around the right level) in the military for a militaristic, conquering and occupational society such as the Empire is it possible to have or infact need and armed forces of this size?

All thought welcome and appreciated, and please note im not claiming this is the size of the empires forces.

Lee

FettKyle · Post by **FettKyle** » 2003-05-02 08:07pm

Due to the fact that we see a lot of humans in the back ground of movies even on the backwater planets I'm willing to bet that the total human population is more around 13-14% of the total population. You got to admit that humans seem to very adaptable and reproduce quickly in Star Wars. Oh and there is a reason why the official numbers seem low.

Executor · Post by **Executor** » 2003-05-03 01:21am

FettKyle wrote:Due to the fact that we see a lot of humans in the back ground of movies even on the backwater planets I'm willing to bet that the total human population is more around 13-14% of the total population. You got to admit that humans seem to very adaptable and reproduce quickly in Star Wars. Oh and there is a reason why the official numbers seem low.

Alright so using 14% and my Galactic population figure we have 23 quintrillion humans and around 170 quadriollion in the armed frces. Could you have this amount of troops? And what is this reason the offical numbers are so low?

Lee

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi · Post by **Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi** » 2003-05-03 01:29am

I guess official numbers are low beacuse the people who did them didn't take the time to realize just how big the SW galaxy is.

Take Coruscant, for example. A city-planet like that probably contains tens, perhaps hundreds of trillions of people, and official sources usually give numbers lower than that.

Executor · Post by **Executor** » 2003-05-03 01:44am

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi wrote:I guess official numbers are low beacuse the people who did them didn't take the time to realize just how big the SW galaxy is.

Take Coruscant, for example. A city-planet like that probably contains tens, perhaps hundreds of trillions of people, and official sources usually give numbers lower than that.

I agree there, there is probably hundreds of trillions on coruscant, not including anything in the lower levels. There is even meant to be planets that have more population then Coruscant, if you go by WEG (10 billion i believe they gave for coruscant) there are quite a few even rim worlds like Mon calamari.

Has there even been an indication of what sort of percentage of the galaxy lives in which region?

With numbers such as this the empires forces being occupational would need to be quite high to keep order, is 170 Quadrillion (using the 14% of total population and 0.76% of the human population) far to high a number?

Lee

Dark Primus · Post by **Dark Primus** » 2003-05-03 02:12pm

The population number on Coruscant is damn huge.
I read from one trillion to 100 trillion in one book. Can't remember from which one.

Executor · Post by **Executor** » 2003-05-03 02:19pm

Dark Primus wrote:The population number on Coruscant is damn huge.
I read from one trillion to 100 trillion in one book. Can't remember from which one.

I think the Inside the worlds of Ep1 book or whatever its called states 1 trillion population for coruscant, I think Curtis Saxtons 650 trillion estimate is probably nearer the correct number, with that amount of people how many troops would the empire have garrisoned there? In my expanded Order od Battles to suit the 170 quadrillion figure, I place the core worlds having an average of 12-15 billion troops. Im sure this would be possible, and im sure the 170 quadrillion figure would be possible as well, If it is and thats a very BIG if how would the rebels forces compare?

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-05-03 03:14pm

Considering that the entirity of Coruscant is a vast city, it seems reasonable that it would have a population density at least that of a midsize Earth city. Consider my boring suburban town of Albany, Oregon. It has about 42,000 residents, spread over 16 square miles. Earth has an area of roughly 197 million square miles. So, Coruscant as a small, fairly undeveloped town would hold some half a trillion residents.

Now, just consider that Coruscant is made up of skyscrapers larger than those on Earth. In all liklihood, Coruscant's population is at least several hundred trillion.

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2003-05-03 10:51pm

Well, Coruscant's population density is iffy. Sure, it's got a HUMONGOUS density all over the surface, though I doubt that density is homogenous. As we saw in AOTC, there are huge areas of the planet (like that fire-spitting refinery area) that have almost no population whatsoever. Furthermore, there's the fact that official literature describes the bottommost levels of the massive buildings to be uninhabited (something like several hundred levels).

Then again, Saxton's upper limit is a thousand trillion... I'd say half a trillion or so is a nice estimate.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2003-05-04 01:17am

Spoofe,most population calcs take that into account.After all,Perth,Sydney,Hong Kong and Tokyo aren't all residential flats after all.

I will be cautious about saying Coruscant has a higher population density than say Tokyo or Hong Kong though.It will be diffcult to rationalise Coruscant population growth in terms of human geography.I mean,will you want to live in an extremely crowded city,jostling in the streets with punks?

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2003-05-04 05:27am

Spoofe,most population calcs take that into account.After all,Perth,Sydney,Hong Kong and Tokyo aren't all residential flats after all.

Not what I'm saying, sorry. I'm pointing out that a planet as densely populated as Coruscant will need greater space, per capita, dedicated towards waste disposal, recycling, atmosphere regulation, etc. On modern Earth, there's enough natural space left to handle those things on its own.

Granted, I have no idea how much area those vital systems will take up...

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2003-05-04 10:16am

SPOOFE wrote:
Spoofe,most population calcs take that into account.After all,Perth,Sydney,Hong Kong and Tokyo aren't all residential flats after all.
Not what I'm saying, sorry. I'm pointing out that a planet as densely populated as Coruscant will need greater space, per capita, dedicated towards waste disposal, recycling, atmosphere regulation, etc. On modern Earth, there's enough natural space left to handle those things on its own.

Granted, I have no idea how much area those vital systems will take up...

You know,I always assumed that they recycle,compress their sewage and waste,then finally dump the remains underground.It will be interesting to examine some of the more esoteric envirnomental concerns of Coruscant.Hmmm,perhaps I really should get that social engineering text and read it...

Executor · Post by **Executor** » 2003-05-05 04:39pm

With adjusting my OoB figures and using the 200 quintrillion galactic population figure, having 14% as human, 28 Quintrillion. Then using 1% of the human population (it is more militaristic society compared to the UK number of 0.46% of Population)you would have 280 Quadrillion soilders in the Imperial Armed forces.

Breaking down that further into seperate arms of the forces, noting that i have not yet finsihed all of my lower level OoB gives around the following results.

I have the Empire having 4 major branches

Imperial Army:
Imperial Stormtroopers:
Imperial Air Force:
Imperial Starfleet:

Each Branch is brokeninto 3 major divisions:

Offensive:
Defensive: (Sector Groups)
Garrison:

Stormtroopers have a additional 3 braches, troops attached to the Army, Air Force and Navy.

Imperial Army: 140 Quadrillion
1 Quadrillion: Offensive.
24 Quadrillion: Defensive.
115 Quadrillion: Garrison.

Imperial Stromtroopers: 96.4 Quadrillion
600 Trillion: Offensive.
40 Quadrillion: Defensive.
54 Quadrillion: Garrison.

Imperial Stormtroopers (Attached): 6.472 Quadrillion
6.4 Quadrillion: Army.
16 Trillion: Air Force.
56 Trillion: Navy

Imperial Air Force: 564 Trillion
4 Trillion: Offensive.
160 Trillion: Defence.
400 Trillion: Garrison.

Imperial Navy: 1.13 Quadrillion
30 Trillion: Offensive.
500 Trillion: Defensive.
600 Trillion: Garrison.

Total Naval Forces are around 5 trillion ships and tation (not including Fighters and shuttles etc)

Now is it possible for the empire to have this amount of troops, im looking at a more realistic amount for the size of the galaxy, not for what offical sources show. Any comments welcome.

Lee

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2003-05-06 05:08am

I would hesitate to put Coruscant's population at more than 1 trillion, simply because you have to understand how big that is. Imagine a city of one million. now imagine a million of those. That's a trillion.

Now add droids, civil services, and infrastructure for all of them. Remember, they don't use the bottom 100-150 stories of the city, so those are sparsely inhabited. Buildings only go 2-5 miles up.

There's no way you could have 100 trillion people.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-05-06 05:12am

CaptainChewbacca wrote:I would hesitate to put Coruscant's population at more than 1 trillion, simply because you have to understand how big that is. Imagine a city of one million. now imagine a million of those. That's a trillion.

Now add droids, civil services, and infrastructure for all of them. Remember, they don't use the bottom 100-150 stories of the city, so those are sparsely inhabited. Buildings only go 2-5 miles up.

There's no way you could have 100 trillion people.

You would need large desolate regions in order to have 3 and 4 km tall skyscrapers covering the whole planetscape and have only a 1 trillion population.

EDIT: to elaborate, the population density of Hong Kong is 100,000 persons per square km. The Earth's surface area is 510 million square km. 1E5 x 510E6 = 50 trillion. And Hong Kong's skyscrapers are not 3 and 4 km high.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2003-05-06 01:09pm

True, but Hong-Kong is not self-sufficient, but must draw its resources from another area. If I recall my X-Wing books, one of the larger structures in the Imperial City was a power-distribution plant.

Amenities and resource distribution will take up a LOT of your space. But you're right about Hong-Kong. Perhaps 10-20 trillion in Imperial Center.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-05-06 01:20pm

CaptainChewbacca wrote:True, but Hong-Kong is not self-sufficient, but must draw its resources from another area. If I recall my X-Wing books, one of the larger structures in the Imperial City was a power-distribution plant.

Amenities and resource distribution will take up a LOT of your space. But you're right about Hong-Kong. Perhaps 10-20 trillion in Imperial Center.

You actualy raise a good point. We know that the planet has enough storage for several weeks worth of supplies (food, water, etc...). Power generation shouldn't take up that much room simply because of how powerful Hypermatter is. Then you also have all the factories on the planet as well as the storage of their resources and then their finished products. All that is going to take away from space for people.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2003-05-06 01:47pm

I've never heard of "hypermatter" in a Star Wars context being used as a power source. Most of coruscant's energy came from solar and geothermal, or so I believed.

Where can I learn from an "official" source about hypermatter?

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-05-06 03:14pm

I am doubtful that population can be maintained with just solar and geothermal.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-05-06 03:26pm

CaptainChewbacca wrote:I've never heard of "hypermatter" in a Star Wars context being used as a power source. Most of coruscant's energy came from solar and geothermal, or so I believed.

Where can I learn from an "official" source about hypermatter?

Coruscant should actually have energy saturation--the sheer number of living beings and life-support involving heat engines (not to mention all the other perks of a city) should make the planet roast itself. Most of the heat is probably reclaimed. Unreclaimable heat and lost energy/resources of other forms are ejected into orbit and removed. Energy brought to the planet surface is probably high-performance fusion reactors/or hypermatter if it is safe enough.

Solar and geothermal simply would not supply enough heat for Coruscant. The whole "solar mirrors" bit sounds like BS. The only reason Coruscant would near solar mirrors is to heat the SW equivalent of organic crops hydroponics labs in orbit for the consciencious herbivores of Coruscant.

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2003-05-06 03:39pm

CaptainChewbacca wrote:True, but Hong-Kong is not self-sufficient, but must draw its resources from another area. If I recall my X-Wing books, one of the larger structures in the Imperial City was a power-distribution plant.

Amenities and resource distribution will take up a LOT of your space. But you're right about Hong-Kong. Perhaps 10-20 trillion in Imperial Center.

While this is true, Coruscant is not self-sufficient either. Massive daily space traffic brings in needed goods, and Hong Kong has much more uninhabited area than inhabited even though it is one of the most densely populated areas on Earth. Take it from someone who has been there, or look up the statistics.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2003-05-07 10:29pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote: Coruscant should actually have energy saturation--the sheer number of living beings and life-support involving heat engines (not to mention all the other perks of a city) should make the planet roast itself. Most of the heat is probably reclaimed. Unreclaimable heat and lost energy/resources of other forms are ejected into orbit and removed. Energy brought to the planet surface is probably high-performance fusion reactors/or hypermatter if it is safe enough.

Solar and geothermal simply would not supply enough heat for Coruscant. The whole "solar mirrors" bit sounds like BS. The only reason Coruscant would near solar mirrors is to heat the SW equivalent of organic crops hydroponics labs in orbit for the consciencious herbivores of Coruscant.

Frankly,I always believed that the solar mirrors and the like are more environmental controls than a energy source.Considering the scale of the city,it might be neccesary for the Empire to redirect heat and light to certain areas of the planet so as to be able to sustain life in that portion of the city.

Heh.The more I read into social engineering,the more I realise the next time a trekkie tries to say ST is more advanced than the Empire,the more I'm going to be at risk from dying of laughter.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2003-05-09 04:46am

Executor
We have 1.000.000 member worlds in the Empire, from the canon.
Now, there is no problem with that and the territorial coverage of the Galaxy. The hyperdrive allows to travel in any place on the order of millions of c. The 1.000.000 planets are scattered through the whole Galaxy. Of course, an unknown number of colonies exists. And an unknown number of worlds which are not in the Empire. The population of SW galaxy may well be fine within population of 100 quadrillion and 51 million systems
51 million systems relates to the Galaxy, so unknown number of them presumably is non-imperial and unknown number of them maybe colonies, correct me if I'm wrong.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2003-05-09 06:04am

Stas Bush wrote:51 million systems relates to the Galaxy, so unknown number of them presumably is non-imperial and unknown number of them maybe colonies, correct me if I'm wrong.

No, it refers to the Empire alone, they have 1 million full member worlds, thats what the 1 million quotes are in reference too, but memberworlds have thousands, if not tens of thousands of colonies and then the Empire also has protectorates in addition to this, total is around 51 million worlds.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2003-05-09 08:25am

His Divine Shadow
Is it from Dark Empire, or?