!2 year old jaywalker gets pepper sprayed by cop.

[salm]

In North America, the roads are large, the traffic lights work, and there's no excuse.

the roads in european cities are just as wide as the one´s in NA.<edit> and you barily see a broken one</edit> if there are no cars comming why shouldn´t i walk?

there´s a great trafic law in, at least, the us which is now slowly comming to germany as well. turn right on read. that´s basicly the same thing.

[HemlockGrey]

the roads in european cities are just as wide as the one´s in NA

I'm calling you on that. Based on my experience in English cities the roads are fucking insane. The only American city that I've visited that can compare is Boston. In the more modern cities(New York, Philadelphia, etc.) the roads are wide and straight, unlike the freaking maze-like roads of York, London, and Lincoln.

[Darth Wong]

if there are no cars comming why shouldn´t i walk?

In that case, it is indeed perfectly safe. However, if the question is "should it be legal to do so", then you rely on everyones' judgement to only do it when it's safe, and some people obviously don't have any.

[Oberleutnant]

Try not to generalize too much. Not every European city is like London, for example.

[Colonel Olrik]

salm, we have big roads outside the cities, surrounding them, etc, but many of our in-city roads were built to adjust to the ancient town, not the other way around like many american cities. That makes most European cities have mainly secondary roads, with a minor number of connecting highways, while in the U.S often is the opposite.

Small roads are easy to cross running, highways are not.

[InnerBrat]

if there are no cars comming why shouldn´t i walk?

In that case, it is indeed perfectly safe. However, if the question is "should it be legal to do so", then you rely on everyones' judgement to only do it when it's safe, and some people obviously don't have any.

But isn't the threat of being whacked and seriously hurt by a car going to be more pressing then being arrested?
(not that there isn't that threat in NA, just what's the point of adding to it?)
What kind of penalty are we talkign about here, anyway?

[InnerBrat]

Oh BTW, in the UK, at least, it's illegal even to be a pedestrian along the motorways, so there's no need to add laws for crossing them...

(not suire how this relates to other countries, but I can see the thread heading that way)

[HemlockGrey]

What kind of penalty are we talkign about here, anyway?

Infraction, I think. Typically a minor fine.

[salm]

if there are no cars comming why shouldn´t i walk?

In that case, it is indeed perfectly safe. However, if the question is "should it be legal to do so", then you rely on everyones' judgement to only do it when it's safe, and some people obviously don't have any.

so do you think that "turn right on read" should be illegal?

[Darth Wong]

if there are no cars comming why shouldn´t i walk?

In that case, it is indeed perfectly safe. However, if the question is "should it be legal to do so", then you rely on everyones' judgement to only do it when it's safe, and some people obviously don't have any.

so do you think that "turn right on read" should be illegal?

A driver supposedly has had training and has had to pass tests indicating that he understands the safety issues. A pedestrian need have no such qualifications.

[Darth Wong]

But isn't the threat of being whacked and seriously hurt by a car going to be more pressing then being arrested?

Yes ... if the person has a brain in his head. Which would be the whole problem

What kind of penalty are we talkign about here, anyway?

A fine, IIRC.

[Crayz9000]

The way I see it, I only jaywalk when
1) There's no traffic, and
2) I'm roughly in the middle of the block

Otherwise, I use the crosswalk, or cross at an uncontrolled intersection. Jaywalking a few meters (or feet, whatever) from a crosswalk is just plain stupid.

[salm]

salm, we have big roads outside the cities, surrounding them, etc, but many of our in-city roads were built to adjust to the ancient town, not the other way around like many american cities. That makes most European cities have mainly secondary roads, with a minor number of connecting highways, while in the U.S often is the opposite.

Small roads are easy to cross running, highways are not.

ah, ok if we´re talking about highways (incase highways are similar to freeways), freeways, autobahnen and stuff like that, walking on them should be totaly illegal.

now that i´ve read the article again i see that it was a busy highway. well, yes, that should indeed be illegal.

[salm]

In that case, it is indeed perfectly safe. However, if the question is "should it be legal to do so", then you rely on everyones' judgement to only do it when it's safe, and some people obviously don't have any.

so do you think that "turn right on read" should be illegal?

A driver supposedly has had training and has had to pass tests indicating that he understands the safety issues.

well, this training is rather very, very small in the us, isn´t it?

[neoolong]

Not every intersection lets right turns on red.

[Darth Wong]

well, this training is rather very, very small in the us, isn´t it?

I think it should be more stringent, but nonetheless, it is enough that we deem him or her competent to drive. That is more than you can say for a 12 year old pedestrian.

[salm]

Not every intersection lets right turns on red.

last time i was in the us (california) it seemed like it was most of them. and it surely is a good thing that it´s illegal to tror on dangerous intersections.
and the exact same thing could be done with jaywalking. make it illegal to jaywalk dangerous streets such as streets with a high speed limit and make it legal on other streets when it´s safe.

[Andrew J.]

Better she should get pepper-sprayed now than run over in the future.

[neoolong]

Not every intersection lets right turns on red.

last time i was in the us (california) it seemed like it was most of them. and it surely is a good thing that it´s illegal to tror on dangerous intersections.

Which is why they are, for the most part.

and the exact same thing could be done with jaywalking. make it illegal to jaywalk dangerous streets such as streets with a high speed limit and make it legal on other streets when it´s safe.

The thing is most of the time the streets that are safe enough, are ones without stoplights, and so you pretty much can walk when you want to.

But, you should use the crosswalk because the driver can't pay attention enough to cover every single part of the street where somebody could pop out of.

[Darth Wong]

Better she should get pepper-sprayed now than run over in the future.

Any kid who would be that defiant and belligerent toward a police officer has it coming. Hopefully she learned a lesson, but I suspect we'll be seeing this girl on "Cops" someday.

[salm]

well, this training is rather very, very small in the us, isn´t it?

I think it should be more stringent, but nonetheless, it is enough that we deem him or her competent to drive. That is more than you can say for a 12 year old pedestrian.

we had this sort of pedestrian education in first grade or maybe even in kindergarden. i think most kids are smart enough to understand: look left, then right and then left again. if there are no cars comming you can cross the road.
but then there might be some stupid kids who really don´t understand that. i think that and the knowledge that you might die if don´t follow some basic rules, is enough to consider him/her competent to walk.
i mean, how many people get into accidents when walking compared to accidents when driving?

[salm]

Not every intersection lets right turns on red.

last time i was in the us (california) it seemed like it was most of them. and it surely is a good thing that it´s illegal to tror on dangerous intersections.

Which is why they are, for the most part.

sorry, i meant most of them allowed tror.

[Superman]

Yeah, people need to stop COPing attitudes with cops. Get it? Copping? Because the cop and the... heh heh Yeah...

Anyway, all the cops I have ever worked with seem more than willing to work with people when it comes to minor stuff. This girl just had an attitude. By the way, this is how you know this girl is going to be HOT. If she were ugly, someone would have told her to STFU by now.

[Glocksman]

Something else to consider is the size of the 12 yearl old
5'1 and 134 lbs??

That's one stocky 12 year old girl.
Perhaps the deputy reasoned that the potential for increased physical harm to her from the force needed to restrain such a large 12 year old justified the used of spray.?

Anyway, most police are trained on the use of escalation of force.
Let's take a look at the force scale.

Link

As taught by most law enforcement academies, the use-of-force continuum consists of five levels, with each tier representing an escalation in force from the preceding level. The principles of the continuum and safety considerations, as well as officer and department liability factors, reinforce the importance of approaching each situation on the lowest level possible to achieve the desired results. The escalation-in-force continuum model generally recognized in departments across the Nation is as follows:

1) Physical presence
2) Verbalization
3) Physical contact
4) Hand-held impact weapons
5) Lethal force.
While this model adequately reflects the methods available to police departments in past years, it does not accommodate the expanded arsenal of neutralizing agents available to today's law enforcement officers. Therefore, administrators and trainers should consider modifying the continuum to encompass these measures.

The new use-of-force continuum should include two additional levels and appear as such:




1) Physical presence
2) Verbalization
3) Less than physical force (neutralizing agents)
4) Physical contact
5) Less than physical force (neutralizing agents)
6) Hand-held impact weapons
7) Lethal force.

As reflected in this new model, neutralizing agents, such as pepper spray, can give officers an added degree of flexibility at two critical points in the force continuum--before they make any physical contact with subjects or after initial physical contact but before the introduction of hand-held weapons.

The deputy had tried 1 and 2 on the scale and they failed. Next up is either the 'less than physical force' or physical force.

I personally would rather have seen this 12 year old pepper sprayed than wearing a cast because the cop broke her arm or leg in a struggle.

[Darth Wong]

If she were ugly, someone would have told her to STFU by now.

I believe the cop told her precisely that, in a non-verbal way.