Here's a GE/UPF Question for everyone (probably been done)

[SPOOFE]

ISD bridge's don't suddenly disapear.

But, yet, if you assume that the bridge wasn't obscured, then that's precisely what happened. Where's the debris, Alyeska? The asteroid strikes the port side of the bridge... the starboard side, according to your explanation, "disappears".

The way you're describing events, it is simply NOT POSSIBLE for there not to be any debris readily visible. If the asteroid were sufficient to rupture the armor and structural support of the ISD tower, the starboard side of the bridge should have been flung towards the camera. Yet it was not. It was not visible anywhere.

Ergo, the final conclusion: "It was not visible". A huge plume of black dust is seen obscuring the rear of the ISD tower, which is only visible because it has the backlight of the SSD's engines. The forward part of the dust cloud has no back light, and thus is indistinguishable from the normal blackness of space. That is why the tower is not visible.

[Alyeska]

Yet this plume that is seemingly blocking the tower disapears just below the main tower and does not obscure the main body of the ISD.

Another explination is that the forward section of the bridge was crumpled back by the power of the explossion and that is why there is no tower debris. The bridge was destroyed but not blown apart.

[Alyeska]

Not likely. The secondary bridge would most likely be far from the main one, and if that's the case there would have been no reaction from the captain at all. Even if the secondary bridge was close to the main one the captain would have still been affected by the impact and given more of a reaction.

Did you note how the loss of the ISD's bridge did not shake the ship at all nor cause a change in its direction? The captain could have been in the CIC or the secondary bridge and his imediate reaction to the loss of the bridge was to raise his arm up to block away light from a feedback caused by the loss of the bridge. His image not shaking up is easily explained by how well the rest of the ISD reacted to the loss of its bridge.

[Worlds Spanner]

Alyeska, your clip ends when the bridge is still obscured by dust from the asteroid. If that's the end of the shot, we have no way of knowing how much exterior damage was done.

[Alyeska]

I have a better clip on my HD, let me see if I can find where I downloaded it again.

[Wild Karrde]

Not likely. The secondary bridge would most likely be far from the main one, and if that's the case there would have been no reaction from the captain at all. Even if the secondary bridge was close to the main one the captain would have still been affected by the impact and given more of a reaction.

Did you note how the loss of the ISD's bridge did not shake the ship at all nor cause a change in its direction? The captain could have been in the CIC or the secondary bridge and his imediate reaction to the loss of the bridge was to raise his arm up to block away light from a feedback caused by the loss of the bridge. His image not shaking up is easily explained by how well the rest of the ISD reacted to the loss of its bridge.

The ISD was already changing it's direction before and during the asteroid strike. It's not that far of a stretch to say that the tower's profile was also altered somewhat.

The Captain was most likely on the main bridge since we have no evidence to say he wasn't. Considering how Vader is somone who cares little for most officers under his command and doesn't like to be kept waiting he most likely ordered an immediate conference with no time for the captain to move to the scondary bridge.

[Alyeska]

Not likely. The secondary bridge would most likely be far from the main one, and if that's the case there would have been no reaction from the captain at all. Even if the secondary bridge was close to the main one the captain would have still been affected by the impact and given more of a reaction.

Did you note how the loss of the ISD's bridge did not shake the ship at all nor cause a change in its direction? The captain could have been in the CIC or the secondary bridge and his imediate reaction to the loss of the bridge was to raise his arm up to block away light from a feedback caused by the loss of the bridge. His image not shaking up is easily explained by how well the rest of the ISD reacted to the loss of its bridge.

The ISD was already changing it's direction before and during the asteroid strike. It's not that far of a stretch to say that the tower's profile was also altered somewhat.

The Captain was most likely on the main bridge since we have no evidence to say he wasn't. Considering how Vader is somone who cares little for most officers under his command and doesn't like to be kept waiting he most likely ordered an immediate conference with no time for the captain to move to the scondary bridge.

The ISD was moving at a constant and predictable rate. If the forward section of the tower survived it would have been visible when it exited the debris field. It did not. The tower was severly damaged or destroyed. The only explination for the Captain is that he was in the CIC or secondary bridge when it occured. This is fairly safe to assume because Vader was insisting on Holonet transmissions which require the shields to be down.

[Wild Karrde]

Did you note how the loss of the ISD's bridge did not shake the ship at all nor cause a change in its direction? The captain could have been in the CIC or the secondary bridge and his imediate reaction to the loss of the bridge was to raise his arm up to block away light from a feedback caused by the loss of the bridge. His image not shaking up is easily explained by how well the rest of the ISD reacted to the loss of its bridge.

The ISD was already changing it's direction before and during the asteroid strike. It's not that far of a stretch to say that the tower's profile was also altered somewhat.

The Captain was most likely on the main bridge since we have no evidence to say he wasn't. Considering how Vader is somone who cares little for most officers under his command and doesn't like to be kept waiting he most likely ordered an immediate conference with no time for the captain to move to the scondary bridge.

The ISD was moving at a constant and predictable rate. If the forward section of the tower survived it would have been visible when it exited the debris field. It did not. The tower was severly damaged or destroyed. The only explination for the Captain is that he was in the CIC or secondary bridge when it occured. This is fairly safe to assume because Vader was insisting on Holonet transmissions which require the shields to be down.

That side simply vanishes with no impact or explosin near it. Why's it so hard to believe that a dust cloud was blocking our view of it instead of just saying, oh, it was destroyed even though nothing was near it that could have done so. Besides the scene is long enough for the bridge to have moved out of the explosion but not the dust cloud.

I also seriously doubt the captain would have moved off the main bridge. Not when he's perfectly safe behind the ISD's sheilds. How was he supposed to know Vader would order a holo-conference in the middle of an asteroid field?

The captain had two choices, either lower the shield for a few moments, taking his chances that nothing would hit the bridge, or disobey Vader and certainly end up dead. If he valued his life he most certainly chose to remain on the main bridge.

[Alyeska]

That side simply vanishes with no impact or explosin near it. Why's it so hard to believe that a dust cloud was blocking our view of it instead of just saying, oh, it was destroyed even though nothing was near it that could have done so. Besides the scene is long enough for the bridge to have moved out of the explosion but not the dust cloud.

Yes, but we also see that it moved out of the dust cloud. We know this because the dust cloud is no longer obscuring the main hull of the ISD. At the point that it is no longer blocking the view the bridge should also be in view, except that it isn't.

I also seriously doubt the captain would have moved off the main bridge. Not when he's perfectly safe behind the ISD's sheilds. How was he supposed to know Vader would order a holo-conference in the middle of an asteroid field?

They had been in the field for several hours by that point. Vader was probably asking for updates quite frequently.

The captain had two choices, either lower the shield for a few moments, taking his chances that nothing would hit the bridge, or disobey Vader and certainly end up dead. If he valued his life he most certainly chose to remain on the main bridge.

A captain can command a ship from more places then just the bridge. The CIC and secondary bridge are both suitable locations.

[Worlds Spanner]

That side simply vanishes with no impact or explosin near it. Why's it so hard to believe that a dust cloud was blocking our view of it instead of just saying, oh, it was destroyed even though nothing was near it that could have done so. Besides the scene is long enough for the bridge to have moved out of the explosion but not the dust cloud.

Yes, but we also see that it moved out of the dust cloud. We know this because the dust cloud is no longer obscuring the main hull of the ISD. At the point that it is no longer blocking the view the bridge should also be in view, except that it isn't.

Not neccessarily. It's possible that the smaller fast moving debris had cleared the ship but larger or slower debris from the point of impact had not cleared the bridge.

And the debris seem pretty scanty for then entire bridge tower to have been destroyed, unless it was vaporozed or something, which I doubt,

[Alyeska]

Not neccessarily. It's possible that the smaller fast moving debris had cleared the ship but larger or slower debris from the point of impact had not cleared the bridge.

And the debris seem pretty scanty for then entire bridge tower to have been destroyed, unless it was vaporozed or something, which I doubt,

After viewing the scene again I can state that the bridge was not obscured by debris. Compare the position of the leading edge of the bridge to the main hull of the ISD. Now when the explossion occurs watch the edge of the explossion as it crosses the hull of the ISD. You can see the the debris cloud has disapeared for the most part. Looking at the comparison point on the hull you will notice that the leading edge of the bridge is nowhere to be seen even though it has left the debris cloud.

[Darth Wong]

If the captain was in a distant secondary location, why was he affected by the impact at all?

[Alyeska]

If the captain was in a distant secondary location, why was he affected by the impact at all?

Possibly a similar design flaw as the Executor class had. In ROTJ when the bridge was taken out the engines miss fired and the Executor plunged into the DS2. Its possible in the ESB scene that there was feedback damage in the ship and the lights flared in the location the captain was at. That causes him to throw up his arm and turn his head to protect his eyes. Further damage then cut the holonet transmission between the captain and the Executor.

[Worlds Spanner]

Not neccessarily. It's possible that the smaller fast moving debris had cleared the ship but larger or slower debris from the point of impact had not cleared the bridge.

And the debris seem pretty scanty for then entire bridge tower to have been destroyed, unless it was vaporozed or something, which I doubt,

After viewing the scene again I can state that the bridge was not obscured by debris. Compare the position of the leading edge of the bridge to the main hull of the ISD. Now when the explossion occurs watch the edge of the explossion as it crosses the hull of the ISD. You can see the the debris cloud has disapeared for the most part. Looking at the comparison point on the hull you will notice that the leading edge of the bridge is nowhere to be seen even though it has left the debris cloud.

In the link you provided the debris cloud never clears at all, but I know that it isn't the full clip.

Based on your words since I dont' have the clip, you've only accounted for motion on one axis. Denser debris may never have moved as far down as the main body, making your point of referene useless.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

How does the destruction or survival of the bridge have anything to do with ARMOR?!

[Alyeska]

How does the destruction or survival of the bridge have anything to do with ARMOR?!

Asside for the windows, the bridge has armor on it just like the rest of the ISD.

[Darth Wong]

How does the destruction or survival of the bridge have anything to do with ARMOR?!

Asside for the windows, the bridge has armor on it just like the rest of the ISD.

Which we saw shrugging off asteroid impacts of similar size. It is obviously not the same thickness of armour.

[Alyeska]

In the link you provided the debris cloud never clears at all, but I know that it isn't the full clip.

Based on your words since I dont' have the clip, you've only accounted for motion on one axis. Denser debris may never have moved as far down as the main body, making your point of referene useless.

Actualy that clip shows the entire scene. As to your claim. You are making pure speculation with absolutely no proof. I have indicated and proven that the bridge should have exited the debris and be seen. It has not. You claim it is still in the debris. I have proven it is not. You can clearly see the explossion expand out, collapse in, and become debris. The forward section of the bridge should have been seen, it was not.



Here is the bridge of the ISD super imposed on the last frame of the video clip. This is the location the bridge should be at.



Notice sections 1 and 2. In section 1 there is absolutely no visible trace of the forward section of the bridge. It has already exited beyond the point of the explossion and the debris field. In section 2 you can see through the debris and spot the lights of the Executor. If the bridge was intact the shield globes would have obscured that particular view.

The forward section of the bridge was completely and utterly destroyed.

[Alyeska]

How does the destruction or survival of the bridge have anything to do with ARMOR?!

Asside for the windows, the bridge has armor on it just like the rest of the ISD.

Which we saw shrugging off asteroid impacts of similar size. It is obviously not the same thickness of armour.

There were other asteroid scenes with the ISDs in ESB? I don't recall any besides this event.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Notice section 3 is totally off?

[Alyeska]

Notice section 3 is totally off?

I didn't make the picture, I am not sure what 3 is trying to portray.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

FYI Alyeska can credit the picture toDarkstar.

Seems fairly convincing.

[Darth Wong]

Asside for the windows, the bridge has armor on it just like the rest of the ISD.

Which we saw shrugging off asteroid impacts of similar size. It is obviously not the same thickness of armour.

There were other asteroid scenes with the ISDs in ESB? I don't recall any besides this event.

There was another scene where you could see asteroids exploding off its ventral hull with no effect. This was a long-range shot, seen from a considerable distance so the entire ship was clearly visible. There's also the canon novelization which describes a "steady rain" of asteroids striking the ship's hull, also with no effect. Of course, the novel's descriptions differ from the movie scene in question on numerous key points (number of ships, visual size of asteroid from Vader's vantage point, etc), but most people interpret that to mean that it's describing a different event.

[Illuminatus Primus]

In ROTJ when the bridge was taken out the engines miss fired

The engines were shot to shit. There are flame plumes visible as it crashes.

[Darth Wong]

As for the incident in question, I need to review it again. Are those lights shining through from the Executor, or are they glowing debris from the impact? And the question of where all this material went does bear repeating given this interpretation; the asteroid simply isn't carrying enough energy to vapourize that much metal, and the blast would be much brighter if that were the case anyway.