Taking up the ST/SW issue with a philosophical approach

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Darth Wong
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Post by Darth Wong »

Nova Andromeda wrote:It seems to me that the comparison is not very good. It would be more similar to Hitler or the Japanese nuking an American city during WWII. The means can only be justified after they are wieghed against the end result. The Empire was fighting to maintain a dictatorship (regardless of "sentient" rights) and crush democratic forces (which I assume supported "sentient" rights since I don't know the details from the E.U.). The U.S. nuked Nagasaki while fighting a war in support of human rights against Japan.
They fought a war to attack someone who attacked them. They didn't care about human rights in Japan.
In the end the U.S. did more good than harm in WWII while the Empire did more harm than good in its quest to suppress democratic forces. Whether or not the U.S. did the maximum good it could have is another question.
That depends on just how much good it did. IP pointed out that the official books show that the Empire made everything worse or at least, left it the same. However, the NR bias of the official literature is incredibly blatant, and Biggs claimed in the ANH novelization that the Empire was a glorious thing in its heyday. Clearly, people WELCOMED the Empire; it was seen as an improvement, and stayed that way for a while. The question is just how bad it was before, and how much distortion the NR-slanted official literature introduced (for example, every single X-wing story has a character who is loyal to the Empire but discovers that the Empire actually horribly betrayed him, so he switches sides at a crucial turning point; how plausible is this?).
As an aside, law and order are not necessarily good things. It entirely depends upon what the laws are and the kind of order you have. Their was law and order in the southern states of the U.S. when slavery existed and that was clearly not a good thing. How this relates to the Empire is not quite clear to me, however, they certainly didn't bring about optimal law and order with respect to morality.
Since we don't know what the state of Imperial law and order was except for historical documents written by those who hated them, that is difficult to say, isn't it? All of that anti-alien crap in the official literature seems pretty suspect in light of Palpatine's heavy reliance upon aliens.
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Post by Kurgan »

The point is that although the leaders of the Empire are undoubtably evil. you cannot say that every single crewman in on every single imperiel ship is evil. there will be plenty that disagree with blowing up alderaan ,or base delta zeros. Its been a while since i read Heir to the Empire but as a recall the first scene with Pelleon was one that expressed the Imperiel officers disapproval of th death Stars and had wanted to beleive the first one was just "Tarkin's Folly" and not what the emperor condoned.
I also think there are scenes in NJO's "Conquest" that illistate my point quite nicely
To sum up, evil is as evil does.

The "just following orders" excuse doesn't fly on earth, why should it fly for the bad guys of Star Wars? Their victims are still dead (although its fiction of course). Despite what some Imp officer or general wanted to believe, the Emperor himself oversaw the construction of the Death Stars, and they had his full approval. That his officials and generals were fanatically loyal didn't help the cause of humanitarianism any.

Just in case anyone wonders, no I don't think indiscriminate bombing campaigns like those in WW2 were moral (they don't even compare to Alderaan anyway, but even if they did...). Even in a Machiavellian sense, I think those bombing campaigns accomplished little in the overall force of the war, despite the intentions behind them. Historians differ, but that's my take on it...

To those who say the Empire could only rule the way they did.... who says you have to HAVE an Empire in the first place? It seems the moral cost of having "order" is outweighed by the genocides that take place within one (ie: the Empire is more dangerous to its own people than any "enemy" real or imagined).
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Post by Kurgan »

We could also ask ourselves, which is worse.. a government that is indifferent to atrocities being committed outside their borders, or one that actively commits atrocities against its own citizens?
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Darth Wong wrote:However, the NR bias of the official literature is incredibly blatant, and Biggs claimed in the ANH novelization that the Empire was a glorious thing in its heyday. Clearly, people WELCOMED the Empire; it was seen as an improvement, and stayed that way for a while.
One cannot simply discount the Empire's crimes--the ones I cited are objectively noted...not the claims of characters--WEG and the novel storylines clearly outline mercantilist, abusive, corrupt, and negligent policies persued and encouraged at the highest levels within the Empire.
Darth Wong wrote:The question is just how bad it was before, and how much distortion the NR-slanted official literature introduced (for example, every single X-wing story has a character who is loyal to the Empire but discovers that the Empire actually horribly betrayed him, so he switches sides at a crucial turning point; how plausible is this?).
I recall Tycho doing this--and it wasn't at a key moment. The Empire blew up his planet--who's suprised he defected?

As for Baron Fel, I'm not quite sure on the circumstances--but he did jump ship to Thrawn's fanatics as well.

As for Kasan Moor, she is also Alderaanian. None of the Alderaanians suprise me at all. And her capture was no swinging plot device--she provided some general intel--nothing war turning in nature.

X-Wing Alliance featured an Imperial defector--but he was tracked down by Rebel intel and rescued.

In fact, how many Rebels beyond the financiers and such who politically have something to gain, who do we expect to have become Rebels for any reason other than the Empire fucked them over? This doesn't suprise me. And not every Rebel had a story like this.

Fey'lya joined the Rebel Alliance for political purposes. He knew he'd never climb into power in the framework of "High Human Culture" so he worked through the Rebels--if they won he assured himself a position of importance.
Darth Wong wrote:Since we don't know what the state of Imperial law and order was except for historical documents written by those who hated them, that is difficult to say, isn't it?
The only sources which can be said to be tainted by Rebel perspective are sources which state themselves to be: I, Jedi is a first-person narrative of Corran Horn; the Essential Chronology is said to be a document published by the New Republic Historical Council. The only bias beyond that is merely to note that almost all official materials chronicle the Rebel conflict.

The Dark Horse Empire series outlines the political instability of the Empire that is also reinforced by TIE Fighter, both Rebel-free perspective stories.
Darth Wong wrote:All of that anti-alien crap in the official literature seems pretty suspect in light of Palpatine's heavy reliance upon aliens.
I don't know. The absence of any aliens except with the Rebels or in the crime-infested (Tattooine) and low-class work (Ugnaughts on Bespin) seems pretty telling. There were no female Imperials either. The Empire was devoid of anything except male British-accented WASPs in the OT.

Palpatine only used two aliens within his military to my knowledge. Ska'ar and Thrawn, the blue-skinned and red-eyed :roll: (Grand?) General and Grand Admiral respectively.

Dark Empire explains the existance of Maul quite clearly. Palpatine used whomever was useful, and his only true bias was he believed that non-Force Users were weaklings.

Dark Empire, the Dark Empire Sourcebook (WEG), and the Dark Side Sourcebook (WoTC) clearly outline that Palpatine planned to replace all the Moffs, Grand Moffs and Admirals with his Dark Side Adepts that'd rule as his proxies much like feudal lords. The populace was to be reduced to a basic peon class to Dark Side overlords. The eventual wish was to rule without any need for weapons--just the Dark Side. Byss is a good paradigm for what he planned for the rest of the galaxy--and he and his Adepts sat about draining the life of everything on the planet there.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Darth Wong wrote:All of that anti-alien crap in the official literature seems pretty suspect in light of Palpatine's heavy reliance upon aliens.
Additionally this doesn't quite matter again, because although it is debatable that Palpatine himself was a racist, his cohorts like his Grand Vizier certainly were. And he allowed them to make racism Imperial policy in the form of "High Human Culture."
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Post by Enforcer Talen »

in han solo trilogy, they (alderaan) mention being heavy funders of the rebellion
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Enforcer Talen wrote:in han solo trilogy, they (alderaan) mention being heavy funders of the rebellion
Duh.

The royalty is the government. The Viceroy was funneling funds. How does this affect the fact that the vast majority of the Alderaanian economy and populace were Imperial loyalists, pacifists, and in no way were shown to support the Viceroy's secret insurrectionist sympathies.
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Post by Kurgan »

Because as we know, it's perfectly logical and morally excusable to murder billions in order to kill a few suspected terrorists or terrorist sympathizers/funders [/sarcasm]
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:As for Baron Fel, I'm not quite sure on the circumstances--but he did jump ship to Thrawn's fanatics as well
Well it was his conviction that he was helping the galaxy at large.
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I don't know. The absence of any aliens except with the Rebels or in the crime-infested (Tattooine) and low-class work (Ugnaughts on Bespin) seems pretty telling. There were no female Imperials either. The Empire was devoid of anything except male British-accented WASPs in the OT.
Well clearly you can see that is mere practicality and economy working.
IT'd be wastefull and useless to use anything else than human males because of standardization and the fact that they are available in such great abundance.
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

If one looks at the empire and questions wheter it is evil or not, one must divide it up into several parts.

The Emperor is definitly evil so are many of his racist viziers and other people in the upper echelons, but is the Empire itself as an organization inherently evil?

No I would say, it was run badly but the general principle of order is good, for the galaxy it embodies sound, if not required ideals, stability and order, they bring these means through opression sadly, but they believe the ends justify the means(even though Alderaan was overkill).
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Post by JodoForce »

So the Empire is not evil, it is just deluded to the point of insanity. :roll:
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

JodoForce wrote:So the Empire is not evil, it is just deluded to the point of insanity. :roll:
No
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Post by Thunderfire »

His Divine Shadow wrote: No I would say, it was run badly but the general principle of order is good, for the galaxy it embodies sound, if not required ideals, stability and order, they bring these means through opression sadly, but they believe the ends justify the means(even though Alderaan was overkill).
Well it look like the empire is loosely based on the Third Reich. So was the
Third Reich(1933-45 germany) evil or not.
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Thunderfire wrote:
His Divine Shadow wrote: No I would say, it was run badly but the general principle of order is good, for the galaxy it embodies sound, if not required ideals, stability and order, they bring these means through opression sadly, but they believe the ends justify the means(even though Alderaan was overkill).
Well it look like the empire is loosely based on the Third Reich. So was the
Third Reich(1933-45 germany) evil or not.
Sounds like a red herring to me, nor are the situations or goals comparable.
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Post by Lord of the Farce »

For an Imperial sided point of view on the Galactic Civil War, have a look at the Galactic Empire Data Bank's Rebel Propaganda and Lies section here
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Post by Thunderfire »

His Divine Shadow wrote:
Thunderfire wrote:
Well it look like the empire is loosely based on the Third Reich. So was the
Third Reich(1933-45 germany) evil or not.
Sounds like a red herring to me, nor are the situations or goals comparable.
Hmm

Old Republic = Weimar Republic. Both were paralized by internal struggle and
the people wanted a great leader.
Both the Empire & the Third Reich are quite militaristic.
Both are willing to use questionable methods to acomplish their goals.
Both are "good" societies from the average citizens point of view.
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

Thunderfire wrote:Old Republic = Weimar Republic. Both were paralized by internal struggle and the people wanted a great leader.

Both the Empire & the Third Reich are quite militaristic.
A millitaristic society is not a bad or good thing.
Both are willing to use questionable methods to acomplish their goals
Nazi Germany's goals themselves are questionable.
Both are "good" societies from the average citizens point of view.
The Third Reich was a highly religiously motivated society that sought immoral goals and held no greater good in purpose, unlike the Empire.

The Third Reich was activley pursuing racial ideologies and commited mass murder of the populace of contributing members of society that where not even rebelling, the Empire did not commence any sanctioned attacks on imperial subjects that where innocent, nor did they round up aliens.

Anti-alien views existed in the navy but they where not part of imperial law or sanctioned by the law either, nazi-germany did sanction all such things OTOH.
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Post by Kurgan »

Well clearly you can see that is mere practicality and economy working.
IT'd be wastefull and useless to use anything else than human males because of standardization and the fact that they are available in such great abundance.
That still doesn't explain why the Empire consists entirely of white men with (usually) british accents.

Where are the black officers/admirals? Where are the women? Daala is an exception from the EU, but still...

Standarization doesn't account for those ommisions.
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Post by Kurgan »

The other thing is, are the movies (canon) Rebel propaganda and lies?

If so, then how are we to trust Imperial Propaganda (and lies?)?

We see the Empire commit atrocities (murdering billions in order to kill a few suspected terrorists/terrorist sympathizers or funders), and create weapons of terror and mass destruction for use against their own citizens.

Why did they build the Death Star? That seemed to be the catalyst for the Rebellion more than anything. If the US started building ICBM's that were aimed at American cities 24/7 for the purposes of "keeping order" don't you think that there would be a revolt?
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Post by Darth Servo »

Kurgan wrote:Why did they build the Death Star? That seemed to be the catalyst for the Rebellion more than anything. If the US started building ICBM's that were aimed at American cities 24/7 for the purposes of "keeping order" don't you think that there would be a revolt?
I believe in Shadows of the Empire the Emperor actually was glad to have a rebellion on his hands as it gave him an excuse for more "security measures".
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

I love these debates. Its great to see Imperial apologists who will cite official evidence (esp. that circumstancially supported by canon) in debates yet say everything is Rebel propoganda like Goebbels' poor wife or something.
His Divine Shadow wrote:
I don't know. The absence of any aliens except with the Rebels or in the crime-infested (Tattooine) and low-class work (Ugnaughts on Bespin) seems pretty telling. There were no female Imperials either. The Empire was devoid of anything except male British-accented WASPs in the OT.
Well clearly you can see that is mere practicality and economy working.
IT'd be wastefull and useless to use anything else than human males because of standardization and the fact that they are available in such great abundance.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

There are no shortage of black men. No shortage of Asian men. No shortage of near-humans with apparently for all basic purposes identical physical traits. This canon circumstancial evidence SUPPORTS Official documentation of the "High Human Culture" institution--and hardly counts as the contradiction in canon required to override Official.

The Empire was racist. Enough apologism. Official states it, canon even circumstancially supports it. They were racist.
His Divine Shadow wrote:
Thunderfire wrote:Old Republic = Weimar Republic. Both were paralized by internal struggle and the people wanted a great leader.

Both the Empire & the Third Reich are quite militaristic.
A millitaristic society is not a bad or good thing.
Most of the Imperial armed forces were used to quell any political dissent or to enforce the selfish and greedy whims of the Imperial political elite and did quite little to squash the problems that existed outside the Core in Republic times. They are an oppressive waste of taxes.
His Divine Shadow wrote:
Thunderfire wrote:Both are willing to use questionable methods to acomplish their goals
Nazi Germany's goals themselves are questionable.
"High Human Culture", Imperial endorsement of the slave trade, Imperial expansionism, and the Tarkin Doctrine are all questionable goals.

Let's not even get into Palpatine's plans for the Empire as outlined in the Dark Side Compendium and his other writings, as well as what he was preparing on Byss.
His Divine Shadow wrote:
Thunderfire wrote:Both are "good" societies from the average citizens point of view.
The Third Reich was a highly religiously motivated society that sought immoral goals and held no greater good in purpose, unlike the Empire.
I'm sure the Third Reich's purposes of squashing crime and increasing economic input are intrinsically good.

The upper heirarchy of the Empire was motivated by basic greed and descrimination. The absolute elite were Dark Siders--arguably a religiously motivated group; esp. considering the Sith. Now there's a concerting thought.
His Divine Shadow wrote:The Third Reich was activley pursuing racial ideologies and commited mass murder of the populace of contributing members of society that where not even rebelling, the Empire did not commence any sanctioned attacks on imperial subjects that where innocent, nor did they round up aliens.
This is bullshit. High Human Culture was encouraged even on protectorates out in the middle of fucking nowhere like Bakura. On Taltz and Kashyyyk, and many other worlds, aliens were directly attacked by Imperial forces and pressed into slavery. The Empire is documented as destroying/laying-waste to inhabited worlds on numerous occasions.
His Divine Shadow wrote:Anti-alien views existed in the navy but they where not part of imperial law or sanctioned by the law either, nazi-germany did sanction all such things OTOH.
The Grand Vizier instituted High Human Culture--definitely not a naval officer. On Coruscant, the aliens were rounded up into a sanctioned ghetto known as Invisec.

What's that sand around your head look like, HDS?
Darth Servo wrote:I believe in Shadows of the Empire the Emperor actually was glad to have a rebellion on his hands as it gave him an excuse for more "security measures".
The Death Star was a holdover from the Clone Wars which proved to be the perfect instrument for the newest brand of Imperial political order: the Tarkin Doctrine. It was constructed because it was the ideal means by which to implement "rule through fear."
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Post by Kurgan »

Good point about the "near human" aliens. About the only one we ever hear about is Thrawn, a rare exception from the EU, and wasn't he, like Daala, put on the outskirts in some out of the way place where he couldn't really do much of anything (until after the Emperor's death of course)?

Exploiting aliens seems to be something the Empire did when it suited its purposes, but in general they seem to have snubbed them most opportunities.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Look at the Essential Guide to Aliens--there are plenty of near-humans.

There were Shug Nix's mom's species. That apparently were going extinct (this really strikes me as incredible in a SW level of development). It is possible the Empire liquidated their species.

We know they exterminated and enslaved the Firrero near-human race.

Zecka Thyne is another near-human.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Furthermore, non-humans were permitted to join the Imperial Remnant military after Daala's reforms. The Imperial Remnant does not strike me as a nice accomodating PC regime, so it seems likely that permitted near-humans to join had no logistical shortcomings. Thus the OT Empire was racist--as already shown and proven.
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