georgia plans white only prom

[Darth Wong]

I find this all rather fascinating, to be honest. Someone posts an article about a bunch of white students at a Georgia high school holding a whites-only prom dance, while the black students get upset and try to carry on with the integrated prom dance and the school says nothing.

Inevitably, the first group of responses flame the shit out of the people responsible and the school itself. But then an interesting thing happens: people start to take the flames personally, and start getting defensive.

The excuses come out: "maybe they didn't say anything because they were afraid of lawsuits!" or "maybe they're afraid of peer pressure!" or "what would you say if it was the black students doing this?" (as if it would make a difference).

Tell me, why do those of you reacting defensively to the flames against these kids and their teachers identify with them?

[Colonel Olrik]

The only reasonable explanation I could bear for the other students not speaking out aloud against their racist colleagues would be the fear of getting a bullet between the eyes, or a similar event.

I doubt that's the case, but if it is and I lived there I would move out as soon as possible, never to return.

Some things must not be allowed.

[haas mark]

Participating in the prom makes them racist, yes. NOT SPEAKING OUT DOES NOT MAKE THEM RACIST. Not speaking out might make them cowardly or stupid, but by all means, it is not racist. But then, by your logic, speaking out agaist it could be racist in the opposite way, too. SO I suggest on that point, you STFU, because you know I'm right. Someone might not speak out due to peer or parentla influenc. Happens all too often these days.

So they consider racism less of an issue than peer pressure. Obviously, they don't think racism is important to enough to fight against. What part of this do you not understand?

What part of racism can be due to peer pressure do YOU not understand?

Because it IS okay not to speak out. Period.

Not unless you have a legitimate self-preservation instinct as an excuse, and they don't.

You have to put your shoes in their society. What, are you afraid to do that, because your points might be shot down for once? Oh, please...

OK Verilon, you want to make this personal? Fine, you're being a jack-ass because you think teenagers shouldn't have any principles and should always go along with whatever the crowd does, no matter how morally depraved it is. Nice attitude.

FUCK OFF! I happen to think that most teenagers are fucking IDIOTS and their LACK of morals and principles is FRIGHTENING.. Dude, you're fucking talking to a goddamned 18 year old for Chrissakes... Jeez. I know what it's like to live in a fundaentally racist society. HELL, I LIVE IN ONE NOW!! Here, it's whites against Hispanos against blacks. And how do you think it makes me feel that moreso than that, it's an economic racism, in addition to that!! Until you have lived there, I don't think you have ANY fucking right to do anything BUT generalize.. and you're stepping beyond that bounds..

First off, I AM fucking insane, okay? Second, I'm not misrepresenting your position.

Bullshit. You said "However, I see you saying that it's okay (in your own respect), Wong", which is, of course, the exact OPPOSITE of what I said. Don't be an asshole.

SO maybe I fucking misinterpreted. Get the fuck over it.

[HemlockGrey]

What part of racism can be due to peer pressure do YOU not understand?

It's still fucking racism! That's not an excuse!

[Kelly Antilles]

I'm not defending the kids who chose to have their own prom. I am trying to point out that people are generalizing everyone in the South as being racist.

[Colonel Olrik]

verilon, calm down, or I'll HOS this portion of the thread.

18 years old teens can perfectly understand the difference between what's right and wrong, and act according to those beliefs.I was one of them a while ago, and my morality hasn't changed that much since then. A school business is not exactly a big economical problem, it's where they can and must intervene.

[Darth Wong]

What part of racism can be due to peer pressure do YOU not understand?

The part where it becomes a valid justification.

FUCK OFF! I happen to think that most teenagers are fucking IDIOTS and their LACK of morals and principles is FRIGHTENING..

Then why are you getting angry for me saying the same thing? These kids are engaging in racist activity. That makes them racist. Cut and dried, Verilon.

Dude, you're fucking talking to a goddamned 18 year old for Chrissakes... Jeez. I know what it's like to live in a fundaentally racist society. HELL, I LIVE IN ONE NOW!! Here, it's whites against Hispanos against blacks. And how do you think it makes me feel that moreso than that, it's an economic racism, in addition to that!! Until you have lived there, I don't think you have ANY fucking right to do anything BUT generalize.. and you're stepping beyond that bounds.

I have lived there, jackass. I HAVE A FUCKING LIFELONG SCAR FROM SOMEONE TRYING TO KILL ME BECAUSE OF MY RACE, YOU LOUDMOUTHED WHINER. And I don't back down from anybody.

SO maybe I fucking misinterpreted. Get the fuck over it.

In other words, you know you misrepresented my position exactly 180 degrees around from what I said, but you're so full of pride and anger that you somehow think I'm in the wrong for taking offense at it. Think about that.

[Darth Wong]

I'm not defending the kids who chose to have their own prom. I am trying to point out that people are generalizing everyone in the South as being racist.

Where did I say that every single person in the South is racist? The FACT is that there are more racists down there than there are up here. Are you saying that I should be disallowed from pointing that out even when it's clearly relevant, as in the case of this story?

[haas mark]

What part of racism can be due to peer pressure do YOU not understand?

The part where it becomes a valid justification.

The justification is valid. Just as where peer pressure is enough to get someone to smoke. THere's really not that much difference if you think about it.

FUCK OFF! I happen to think that most teenagers are fucking IDIOTS and their LACK of morals and principles is FRIGHTENING..

Then why are you getting angry for me saying the same thing? These kids are engaging in racist activity. That makes them racist. Cut and dried, Verilon.

ANd you have yet to answer one question - Parental influence. Is it negligible? COs you seem to think it is.

Dude, you're fucking talking to a goddamned 18 year old for Chrissakes... Jeez. I know what it's like to live in a fundaentally racist society. HELL, I LIVE IN ONE NOW!! Here, it's whites against Hispanos against blacks. And how do you think it makes me feel that moreso than that, it's an economic racism, in addition to that!! Until you have lived there, I don't think you have ANY fucking right to do anything BUT generalize.. and you're stepping beyond that bounds.

I have lived there, jackass. I HAVE A FUCKING LIFELONG SCAR FROM SOMEONE TRYING TO KILL ME BECAUSE OF MY RACE, YOU LOUDMOUTHED WHINER.

I have people trying to kill me because of religion, because of race, because of sexuality. I have to live that down. I had someone try to kill me a while back because I was giving someone a tarot reading. YOu think I have it any better than you do?

And I don't back down from anybody.

This I know. But you have to learn when to back down, too, just as we all do.

SO maybe I fucking misinterpreted. Get the fuck over it.

In other words, you know you misrepresented my position exactly 180 degrees around from what I said, but you're so full of pride and anger that you somehow think I'm in the wrong for taking offense at it. Think about that.

Misinterpretation and misrepresentation are not the same thing.

As for being full of pride ~ that is something I don't like to have.

Full of anger ~ maybe.

But I'm not pissed off about you taking offense to it.

[HemlockGrey]

The justification is valid. Just as where peer pressure is enough to get someone to smoke. THere's really not that much difference if you think about it.

WTF? Get some fucking sleep. Peer pressure is NOT a valid justification fo racism. Just because everyone else is a racist does not make it right. I cannot believe you just said something so fucking stupid.

ANd you have yet to answer one question - Parental influence. Is it negligible? COs you seem to think it is.

Right, because if Mommy and Daddy are racist, it's ok to hate blacks.

[haas mark]

The justification is valid. Just as where peer pressure is enough to get someone to smoke. THere's really not that much difference if you think about it.

WTF? Get some fucking sleep. Peer pressure is NOT a valid justification fo racism. Just because everyone else is a racist does not make it right. I cannot believe you just said something so fucking stupid.

Tell that to the idiot fundamentalists. See if they'll listen any better. It's justified because it happens. Or are blind enough not to see that?

ANd you have yet to answer one question - Parental influence. Is it negligible? COs you seem to think it is.

Right, because if Mommy and Daddy are racist, it's ok to hate blacks.

That's not what I was asking. A lot of parental influence (some call it "tradition") is at work here, otherwise this would NOT be an issue.. right?

[Darth Wong]

What part of racism can be due to peer pressure do YOU not understand?

The part where it becomes a valid justification.

The justification is valid. Just as where peer pressure is enough to get someone to smoke. THere's really not that much difference if you think about it.

Let me get this straight: you are saying that peer pressure creates a motive for racism, hence it is a VALID JUSTIFICATION? Since when does motive equate to justification? Is a criminal's bad childhood a justification for his criminal acts?

Then why are you getting angry for me saying the same thing? These kids are engaging in racist activity. That makes them racist. Cut and dried, Verilon.

ANd you have yet to answer one question - Parental influence. Is it negligible? COs you seem to think it is.

Irrelevant. What difference does it make whether someone's parents influenced him to be a racist? Are you saying they're facing serious reprisals? Why didn't the previous year's class fear these horrible consequences and this giant bogeyman of yours?

I have lived there, jackass. I HAVE A FUCKING LIFELONG SCAR FROM SOMEONE TRYING TO KILL ME BECAUSE OF MY RACE, YOU LOUDMOUTHED WHINER.

I have people trying to kill me because of religion, because of race, because of sexuality. I have to live that down. I had someone try to kill me a while back because I was giving someone a tarot reading. YOu think I have it any better than you do?

No, but the point is that your "I have a special circumstance and you can't possibly understand" argument is nothing more than a special-pleading fallacy and doesn't hold up. I do understand, and it's a fallacy regardless.

And I don't back down from anybody.

This I know. But you have to learn when to back down, too, just as we all do.

Show me some evidence that some horrifying threat suddenly arose in the space of one year to justify this behaviour, then.

Misinterpretation and misrepresentation are not the same thing.

They are when you state the misinterpretation as a fact and then argue when told that it's wrong.

[Darth Wong]

Tell that to the idiot fundamentalists. See if they'll listen any better. It's justified because it happens. Or are blind enough not to see that?

I will try to be calm, because you have said some truly horrifying things but I'm not sure you understand them. You are confusing cause with justification. The fact that A causes B does NOT mean that A justifies B.

Right, because if Mommy and Daddy are racist, it's ok to hate blacks.

That's not what I was asking. A lot of parental influence (some call it "tradition") is at work here, otherwise this would NOT be an issue.. right?

You're not answering his point; the word "justification" means that it literally makes something "just", ie- it makes it OK. In this case, it does not.

[Durandal]

What part of racism can be due to peer pressure do YOU not understand?

The part where it becomes a valid justification.

The justification is valid. Just as where peer pressure is enough to get someone to smoke. THere's really not that much difference if you think about it.

Peer pressure is a cause, not an excuse. If they're racists because of peer pressure, they're racists, period. I don't see anyone leaping to the defense of smokers by saying that peer pressure somehow makes them not smokers.

Bottom line: They're racists.

[haas mark]

The part where it becomes a valid justification.

The justification is valid. Just as where peer pressure is enough to get someone to smoke. THere's really not that much difference if you think about it.

Peer pressure is a cause, not an excuse. If they're racists because of peer pressure, they're racists, period. I don't see anyone leaping to the defense of smokers by saying that peer pressure somehow makes them not smokers.

Bottom line: They're racists.

Please, tell me where I said they're not (to some extent). I never said they ARE, though, either. Given, though, that they are teenagers, they are still malleable and they can be converted to non-racism.

Let me get this straight: you are saying that peer pressure creates a motive for racism, hence it is a VALID JUSTIFICATION? Since when does motive equate to justification? Is a criminal's bad childhood a justification for his criminal acts?

Sorry..

In the last statement, though, it's irrelevant. A criminal can be a criminal without being racist, just as a racist can be a racist without being criminal.

Irrelevant. What difference does it make whether someone's parents influenced him to be a racist? Are you saying they're facing serious reprisals? Why didn't the previous year's class fear these horrible consequences and this giant bogeyman of yours?

So parental influence is negligible. Why?

Show me some evidence that some horrifying threat suddenly arose in the space of one year to justify this behaviour, then.

What does it matter? We all have to learn to back down, and that was the point I was trying to make. It may be irrelevant in the debate, but you should know by now my random musings...

And with that, I'm going to go see "The Real Cancún"..

[Darth Wong]

Let me get this straight: you are saying that peer pressure creates a motive for racism, hence it is a VALID JUSTIFICATION? Since when does motive equate to justification? Is a criminal's bad childhood a justification for his criminal acts?

Sorry..

In the last statement, though, it's irrelevant. A criminal can be a criminal without being racist, just as a racist can be a racist without being criminal.

Read what I wrote again. You obviously missed the point and thought I was saying something completely different from what I was saying.

Irrelevant. What difference does it make whether someone's parents influenced him to be a racist? Are you saying they're facing serious reprisals? Why didn't the previous year's class fear these horrible consequences and this giant bogeyman of yours?

So parental influence is negligible. Why?

I never said it was negligible, dumb-ass. I said it's irrelevant. The fact that someone's parents influenced him to be a racist does not change the fact that he is now a racist.

Show me some evidence that some horrifying threat suddenly arose in the space of one year to justify this behaviour, then.

What does it matter? We all have to learn to back down, and that was the point I was trying to make. It may be irrelevant in the debate, but you should know by now my random musings...

If it's irrelevant, then why say it?

And with that, I'm going to go see "The Real Cancún"..

Have fun, but seriously, you have made some seriously irrational arguments here, not to mention some massive misinterpretations of text, one of which was so bad that it ended up being the complete OPPOSITE of what was said.

[Durandal]

Please, tell me where I said they're not (to some extent). I never said they ARE, though, either. Given, though, that they are teenagers, they are still malleable and they can be converted to non-racism.

What did we learn from the abortion debate, verilon? Future potentials do not equate to actuals, nor do they change the present. You can't just draw an arbitrary line in the sand that has "Racist, but potential non-racist" on one side and "Racist forever" on the other and expect it to make some sort of difference in the fact that a person is racist.

A smoker, at any arbitrary point, has the potential to quit smoking. Does this somehow make him a non-smoker?

So again, the bottom line remains. These people are racists. They've expressed no concerns or problems over their classmates organizing a racist activity during school hours on promoting it on school property.

[RedImperator]

So, basically, what the defenders of the people who aren't speaking out are saying is, "They're not racists! They're abject cowards who don't have the stuff between their legs to speak out against a bunch of half-baked donkeyfuckers already condemned by the rest of the fucking world!" This does not, I think, really improve them in the eyes of most outside observers. I am, however, of the opinion that most of them ARE, in fact, racist donkeyfuckers. MAYBE some of the students might be afraid to speak out, but the Goddamned administration has no excuse. If shit like this had happened at my high school and most other high schools I'd heard of, the faculty and administration would be working out ways to strip these lowlifes of academic honors, athletic eligibility, the right to participate in graduation ceremonies, and what have you without violating the first amendment, and they'd be screaming in the Goddamned Philadelphia Inquirer the whole time. The students organizing the white only prom, the students attending the white only prom, the students, the studens cheering on the prom's organizers, sitting by quietly, the administration too racist or too lily livered to condemn it, and the community leaders who aren't exactly racing to the front of the line to call this horseshit for what it is are embarassments to their state, the South, their country, and their Goddamned species, and I can't for the life of me figure out why anyone in this thread is trying to defend them.

[haas mark]

Look, I'm sorry for the irrational arguements. And as for the irrelevant last statement of mine, as I said, you should know my random musings pop up here and there..

Dur ~ Uhm.. don't remember the bortion debate, but I'll just leave things alone.

As for "The Real Cancún" ~ Remind me never to see it again. Not that it was a bad movie, mind you. I just CAN'T see it again without getting depressed.

[David]

*Warning* I haven't read anything but the last page, so my apologies if it's been said.





I was watching CNN and one of the girls from the school said she was going to the segregated one just because it was tradition. People do lots of stupid things because of tradition. Having lived in the South most of my life, I pretty much see this alot of the time. In some cases its not that whites, blacks, hispanics etc. hate each other, it's just that they've gotten so used to the idea of bring separated that anything else is pretty uncomfortable. Most people want to go to the prom to have fun, and it might be that they didn't have fun at the last desegrigated one because they were uncomfortable. That might not be what happened, but that's my theory anyway. Could also be the parents problems with it comming into play.

[Coyote]

If a person is racist because of peer pressure, all that does is explain their actions. It does not excuse (ie, condone) that pov. It is unfortunate that kids are so easily steered by peer pressure and end up getting involved with things that are wrong: racism, drugs, drinking, gangs, crime, etc.

But here the kids have a choice, and they can consciously choose to be racist if they so desire-- whether that be from peer pressure or a sincere and personal conviction that race mixing is wrong.

But if someone attends a KKK meeting and engages in a lynching because "everyone else was doin' it" it would not absolve him. These kids will probably grow up to be narrow-minded and "passive racist" adults, meaning that they will not recognize racism for what it is, or even when they see it. These will be the people that don't flinch or see anything wrong with a "No Blacks Allowed" sign at a restaurant or park, just as others didn't really notice the "Jew-Free" notices in Europe 60 years ago.

Passive enablers but not active persecuters. A different form of evil, but contributing to the corruption nonetheless by providing a place for racism to grow unchallenged and unchecked...

[Zoink]

But here the kids have a choice, and they can consciously choose to be racist if they so desire-- whether that be from peer pressure or a sincere and personal conviction that race mixing is wrong.
........
Passive enablers but not active persecuters. A different form of evil, but contributing to the corruption nonetheless by providing a place for racism to grow unchallenged and unchecked...

I agree with what you said, but I wouldn't label them so passive. This isn't a case where they are simply ignoring the problem, or doing so with a gun to their head. They actually did something in this case. They actively chose to partake in a racist activity for personal gain (ie. be popular, join the 'club', etc). Two roads diverged in the woods; they took the road most traveled because of the benefits it offered. I think its pretty simple.

[RedImperator]

O'Reilley is busy skewering half the state of Georgia for not speaking out aginst this. He's got the local superintendent of schools on the phone and raking him over the coals. O'Reilley does good, for once.

[XPViking]

Here's a map of Georgia:

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/united_s ... gia_90.jpg

Taylor County is just a little below and to the left of the 'E'

Here's a link to the Taylor County School system:

http://www.taylor.k12.ga.us/

Here's a link to the High School:

http://www.taylor.k12.ga.us/~tcss/tchs/tchs.html


XPViking

[Hamel]

O'Reilley is busy skewering half the state of Georgia for not speaking out aginst this. He's got the local superintendent of schools on the phone and raking him over the coals. O'Reilley does good, for once.

Excellent. Now, if he'd apologize for his "wetbacks" comment to latinos, he might be seen as a REAL non-racist.