Reasons why the Imperial forces failed against the New Rep.

[Starscream]

Ok post your theories here. I have alot that the authors could stick in their books that would go a long way in helping to explain how the Empire lost.


Imperial ships:


It seems like Imperial ships, especially SDs, seem to lose the fight when going up against any ship of equivalent size and firepower. Why?


Possibly the SDs were built by the lowest bidder at the fastest possible speed. Substandard parts, weapons, armor etc. could be to blame. It seemed that the Imperial mind set was that numbers mattered more than the quality of it's forces. Imperial ships were also desinged as offensive rather than defensive ships. Imerial SDs had almost no ability to fire above, below, or behind themselves, while NR ships like the Mon Cals built were capiable of firing in all directions.


I'll add more later, but in the mean time add yours.

[Illuminatus Primus]

ISDs regularly kick MC ass.

The Empire lost because they slaughtered themselves for years while the New Republic grew and built relatively unmolested on the Outer Rim. Then they crushed the Empire.

[Joe]

There is little doubt that ISDs are an effective tool for making war (why do you think the NR uses them?).

And if I'm not mistaken, KDY had always been the supplier of the Imperial SD fleet, so a substantial decline in quality seems unlikely.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Once the Rebels captured Kuat though...

KDY was working for the Republic by a couple years post-Onderon.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

IIRC, Kuat was conquered by the Rebels at most ten years after ROTJ. By that time the Empire (Thrawn's empire, at least) was forced into using less advanced shipyards, like Bilbringi. Even by Zsinj's time, the Rebels had Kuat; when Zsinj attempted to steal the other SSD from Kuat's docks, he was foiled by the Rebels there - NOT the Imperials.

[Alyeska]

Even by Zsinj's time, the Rebels had Kuat; when Zsinj attempted to steal the other SSD from Kuat's docks, he was foiled by the Rebels there - NOT the Imperials.

Incorrect. They made it abundantly clear that Kaut was still Imperial at that time. The ship was stolen from the Empire and that is why the Rebels were more concerned about destroying the Razor's Kiss rather then capture it back. Had they owned Kaut they would have had one hell of an ambush set up to defeat Zsinj.

[Alyeska]

Furthermore with the capture of the Lusankya the New Republic didn't have shipyards large enough to service it. It required the captured Billbringi shipyards to completely refit the captured SSD. That means the Empire retained Kaut for a period after having lost Billbringi.

[Illuminatus Primus]

After Solo blew up Zsinj at Dathomir, Warlord Zsinj's empire was consumed in subsequent Republican/Imperial offensives to snatch up as much of it as possible. The resulting flare-up ignited the first period of intense fighting between the Empire and Republic since the fall of Coruscant and the Core Worlds. In the process, the Republic found most of its newest fleets decimated, but succeeded in winning most of Zsinj's territory and resources and siezed large swathes of Imperial territory adjacent to the Core--including Kuat. It was at this time that the Empire was shrunk to less than a quarter of the galaxy.

KDY itself was heavily damaged. I do not know whether it become operational again after Palpatine siezed it during Operation Shadow Hand.

[Alyeska]

After Solo blew up Zsinj at Dathomir, Warlord Zsinj's empire was consumed in subsequent Republican/Imperial offensives to snatch up as much of it as possible. The resulting flare-up ignited the first period of intense fighting between the Empire and Republic since the fall of Coruscant and the Core Worlds. In the process, the Republic found most of its newest fleets decimated, but succeeded in winning most of Zsinj's territory and resources and siezed large swathes of Imperial territory adjacent to the Core--including Kuat. It was at this time that the Empire was shrunk to less than a quarter of the galaxy.

KDY itself was heavily damaged. I do not know whether it become operational again after Palpatine siezed it during Operation Shadow Hand.

Kuat being heavily damaged is the only possible reason why the Lusankya was sent to Bilinbringi.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Kuat being heavily damaged is the only possible reason why the Lusankya was sent to Bilinbringi.

The Essential Chronology explicitly states that Kuat was captured in the last round of fighting before Thrawn reemurgance. The military yards were unusable without extensive restoration. KDY loyalists, and particularly Palpatine's design team, boarded the partially-completed frankenstein commandship Eclipse, and fled into the Deep Core.

Though I feel it is a leap in logic to assume that Bilbringi was used because the New Republic lacked any facilities that could handle the N.R.S. Lusankya.

[Trytostaydead]

Forgive my ignorance.. but are there books that talk about Zsinj asides from the Courtship of Princess Leia? And was Zsinj a grand admiral or just warlord?

[Kerneth]

The X-Wing: Wraith Squadron novels deal with the campaign against Zsinj. I also found them to be fairly good novels; not spectacular, but not unreadable either. Zsinj was not a Grand Admiral in the sense that the Emperor granted him the title. In fact, he rarely displays any real tactical or strategic acumen; rather, he was an opportunist and a skilled manipulator and businessman who happened have an Executor-class Star Destroyer--and having an Executor to play with means you're a pretty damn serious threat regardless of how good a tactician you are.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Executor-class Star Destroyer.

He was a threat because he controlled nearly 1/4 of the galaxy, really.

An Executor-class command ship is really just a prestige vessel.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

He was a threat because he controlled nearly 1/4 of the galaxy, really.

According to Han in COPL, Zsinj's territory was "a few hundred star systems." That's hardly 1/4 of the galaxy.

An Executor-class command ship is really just a prestige vessel.

Since when? In the EU, its always been made out as a formidible warship. While its duties could be carried on by smaller vessels (making it somewhat impractical) it was a deadly vessel in its own right. After all Zsinj went through a hell of a hassle to get one from Kuat, and the NR went through a similar debacle to keep it away from him.

[Illuminatus Primus]

According to Han in COPL, Zsinj's territory was "a few hundred star systems." That's hardly 1/4 of the galaxy.

I'm sure there was a quote for it containing a significant portion of the galactic disk. Even so, several hundred major star systems could easily be 20-30 sectors. He could've had nearly a 1000 SDs. Probably only several hundred though. Though there could've been more if what I swear I remember from somewhere is true.

But judging by the attention he got from the Galactic Empire and New Republic, I think he was a sizable economic, territorial, and military power.

Since when? In the EU, its always been made out as a formidible warship.

Yet they've always been destroyed by rather insignificant firepower in comparison to known fleet sizes and has had firepower and shielding far lower than would be expected for its size.

While its duties could be carried on by smaller vessels (making it somewhat impractical) it was a deadly vessel in its own right. After all Zsinj went through a hell of a hassle to get one from Kuat, and the NR went through a similar debacle to keep it away from him.

Political victories. I suppose you also think that a 100 thousand clones or so and 200 600-meter long old and slow frigates are capable of tipping the scales of galactic balance.

Political and psychological warfare are the most sensical fix, taking in mind the scale of the GFFA and her fleets. Not to mention they are quite good at deploying massive ground forces and directing major fleet operations. But primarily? Political victories.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

But judging by the attention he got from the Galactic Empire and New Republic, I think he was a sizable economic, territorial, and military power.

He may have been in control of worlds of significant influence in the galaxy (kind of like how the Sepretists having 10,000 star systems is a major threat to the galaxy, despite its tiny size). However, he did have his base of operations set around a Outter Rim world of little influence, so interpret that as you will...But if you can find the quote, we can just assume Han was mis-informed.

Yet they've always been destroyed by rather insignificant firepower in comparison to known fleet sizes and has had firepower and shielding far lower than would be expected for its size.

When has this happened? If you are reffering to the Lusankya, you yourself have said many times it was a shadow of its former self, stripped down to be a get away vessel ect.

Political victories. <snip>

Silly me. I'm always thinking about the war aspect. Conceded on this one.

[Illuminatus Primus]

But judging by the attention he got from the Galactic Empire and New Republic, I think he was a sizable economic, territorial, and military power.

He may have been in control of worlds of significant influence in the galaxy (kind of like how the Sepretists having 10,000 star systems is a major threat to the galaxy, despite its tiny size). However, he did have his base of operations set around a Outter Rim world of little influence, so interpret that as you will...But if you can find the quote, we can just assume Han was mis-informed.

Well an interesting calc is to assume a "few hundred" was after the New Republic campiagn ended, and he lost territory in the process as well. Assuming the systems are akin to the "member systems" of the Chommel Sector in AOTC ICS, that means you're dealing with maybe around 25 worlds a sector...a few hundred? That's easily at least probably a dozen sectors.

The 10,000 star systems is probably key star systems--again the Sector members... furthermore the corporate backers own many many key systems and billions of industrial worlds themselves. Clone Wars comic series seem to depict a Confederacy of Independent Systems spanning nearly half the galaxy. Almost all the Outer Rim and much of the Mid and Inner Rims, I'd assume.

When has this happened? If you are reffering to the Lusankya, you yourself have said many times it was a shadow of its former self, stripped down to be a get away vessel ect.

Allston goofed here.

Explaining EU Incidents (esp. Rogue Squadron novels)

(a thread I might up in the near future too)

Personally I believe an MC80B's length is transposed from 2.1 km (to the rediculous 1.2 km) at least. But that's just me.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

Well an interesting calc is to assume a "few hundred" was after the New Republic campiagn ended, and he lost territory in the process as well. Assuming the systems are akin to the "member systems" of the Chommel Sector in AOTC ICS, that means you're dealing with maybe around 25 worlds a sector...a few hundred? That's easily at least probably a dozen sectors.

There wasn't any active planet re-taking to be had in Solo's campaign IIRC. He was just out hunting Zsinj himself, and after Han destroyed the fake Iron Fist he went back to Coruscant.

And the quote was "star systems", as in the planets orbiting one star.

The 10,000 star systems is probably key star systems--again the Sector members... furthermore the corporate backers own many many key systems and billions of industrial worlds themselves. Clone Wars comic series seem to depict a Confederacy of Independent Systems spanning nearly half the galaxy. Almost all the Outer Rim and much of the Mid and Inner Rims, I'd assume.

Agreed. After all, these CIS guys are many of the major corporations in the Republic, if they leave the Republic's economy goes under. Wong's analogy with the one strike of an auto-factory leading to a corporation shut-down is also appropriate.

Allston goofed here.

Explaining EU Incidents (esp. Rogue Squadron novels)

(a thread I might up in the near future too)

Personally I believe an MC80B's length is transposed from 2.1 km (to the rediculous 1.2 km) at least. But that's just me.

So then all the times a SSD has been beaten in combat by what should be an inferior foe seems to have been rationalized. As for Mon Remonda - can you really argue with the official numbers? Things like the SSD's length can be solved by using on-screen evidence, but the Mon Remonda's length has no such convenience.

[Alyeska]

Allston goofed here.

I disagree. He stayed with established information from both Bacta War and ROTJ.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I disagree. He stayed with established information from both Bacta War and ROTJ.

A 1.2 Mon Cal cruiser should not have been a threat to even an undergunned Executor, much less outgun it when the bow surface area available for guns on the Executor is much greater than a Mon Cal's broadside.

We've gone over this before. Being simultaneously assaulted by a dozen Mon Cal cruisers and explosive-rigged fireships several hundred meters in length (when fighter torpedoes can knock out frigates unassisted) would be expected to overwhelm a command ship.

In Bacta War, a stripped-down Executor was ambushed with heavy fixed-place anti-capital ship torpedoes, a pair of destroyers, an Alderaanian frigate, and a lot of starfighters.

How does this equate to a supposedly 1.2 km battlecruiser's broadside outgunning an Executor-class's forward weapons? Esp. taking in that canon would implicate that there could be over a 100 ISD-type heavy turrets on the Executor's hull?

And furthermore, how an Executor-class, which should have dozens of wings of starfighters and untold firepower would be scared away by a few escorts and the little battlecruiser and a couple squadrons of fighters.

[Alyeska]

I disagree. He stayed with established information from both Bacta War and ROTJ.

A 1.2 Mon Cal cruiser should not have been a threat to even an undergunned Executor, much less outgun it when the bow surface area available for guns on the Executor is much greater than a Mon Cal's broadside.

We've gone over this before. Being simultaneously assaulted by a dozen Mon Cal cruisers and explosive-rigged fireships several hundred meters in length (when fighter torpedoes can knock out frigates unassisted) would be expected to overwhelm a command ship.

In Bacta War, a stripped-down Executor was ambushed with heavy fixed-place anti-capital ship torpedoes, a pair of destroyers, an Alderaanian frigate, and a lot of starfighters.

How does this equate to a supposedly 1.2 km battlecruiser's broadside outgunning an Executor-class's forward weapons? Esp. taking in that canon would implicate that there could be over a 100 ISD-type heavy turrets on the Executor's hull?

And furthermore, how an Executor-class, which should have dozens of wings of starfighters and untold firepower would be scared away by a few escorts and the little battlecruiser and a couple squadrons of fighters.

IIRC WEG gave the Executor only twice the fighter and weapon compliment of ISDs and several EU writers have used this. If an Executor has that few guns spread out across that much space, I find it fairly easy for a dedicated Mon Cal warship when broadside to outgun the forward section of an Executor class.

[Illuminatus Primus]

As for Mon Remonda - can you really argue with the official numbers? Things like the SSD's length can be solved by using on-screen evidence, but the Mon Remonda's length has no such convenience.

The justification for discarding WEG's "Imperial-class" bullshit is similarly weak.

Let's look at the evidence.

Circumstancial:

WEG consistently misunderstands SW space combat. They fail to observe canon evidence consistently and continually and misunderstand both proper SW fleet scale or even weapons systems.

Additionally:

WEG consistently misinterprets the scale of prestige vessels such as Home One and the Executor.

WEG lists the MC80 as a single type of vessel and assumes they're unique. This is clearly not true. There is an MC80, MC80 winged varient, and another cruiser at Endor. They all appear to be near a Star Destroyer's length or slightly shorter--though they're definitely less massive. ILM scaling charts show Mon Cal concepts being equal in length at 1 mile to the Imperator-class Star Destroyer. This implies the baseline Mon Cal cruiser is around 1.5-1.6 km in length, as opposed to the WEG length of 1.2 km.

Furthermore, the Home One is referred to as a 1.2 MC80, laughably, while it is nearly 4 km long! Its actually listed as having only 29 TL batteries.

Now we know the Mon Remonda was a major prestige vessel and flagship and intended to be a quick and strong hitter. Its intended to be a battlecruiser--Imperial vessels of this type easily reach many km in length. We know it was manufactured after the New Republic was quite established and a strong fleet and infrastructure had been established. One would think the flagship of a fleet sent out to take down Zsinj would be a battlecruiser longer in length to the cruisers at Endor. Since 29 TLs for Home One appear to be a transposition, it occured to me the 1.2 km lengths for the MC80B and MC90 might be transpositions of 2.1 km.

Furthermore, Allston envisionment of the battle had an 8 km Executor faced by a 1.2 km Mon Remonda. Based on the canon-Executor scale, that should be a 17.6 km Executor facing a 2.64 km Mon Remonda anyway.

IIRC WEG gave the Executor only twice the fighter and weapon compliment of ISDs and several EU writers have used this. If an Executor has that few guns spread out across that much space, I find it fairly easy for a dedicated Mon Cal warship when broadside to outgun the forward section of an Executor class.

WEG lists imaginary 60 TL batteries as an "Imperial"-class's main weaponry. It ignores canon HTL batteries. Saxton's observations of the dorsal face of the Executor model have led him to supposed that over 400 ISD-scale HTLs may be mounted on the Executor's hull.

Additionally, the WEG figures are drastically minimalistic even for an 8 km vessel. We really should scale up--I find it extremely erroneous to take figures for a WEG vessel which does not resemble the Executor, has the wrong number of engines, and is half the length of the Executor. The WEG "Super-class Star Destroyer" is not the canon Executor-class Star Command Ship, and thus your citation is not valid.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, not only is your WEG citation absurd and erroneous anyway, its a complete back-peddling. You said in-line with ROTJ and Bacta War. I refuted that, and you reply with something about WEG.

[Alyeska]

WEG lists imaginary 60 TL batteries as an "Imperial"-class's main weaponry. It ignores canon HTL batteries. Saxton's observations of the dorsal face of the Executor model have led him to supposed that over 400 ISD-scale HTLs may be mounted on the Executor's hull.

Additionally, the WEG figures are drastically minimalistic even for an 8 km vessel. We really should scale up--I find it extremely erroneous to take figures for a WEG vessel which does not resemble the Executor, has the wrong number of engines, and is half the length of the Executor. The WEG "Super-class Star Destroyer" is not the canon Executor-class Star Command Ship, and thus your citation is not valid.

In that case I would scale the fighter compliment from 12 squadrons to 48 minimum, maybe even 72 for a full twelve times that of an ISD. I guess Iron Fist and Lusankya can be explained as highly modified SSDs that were caught with their pants down so to speak.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I don't see why--the Mon Remonda in that battle is based on being a ship confronting a 8 km ship. So I scaled up.

Especially since they don't know their figures for Home One.

In that case I would scale the fighter compliment from 12 squadrons to 48 minimum, maybe even 72 for a full twelve times that of an ISD. I guess Iron Fist and Lusankya can be explained as highly modified SSDs that were caught with their pants down so to speak.

Indeed. That's actually conservative. Look at that hangar--its huge. The Executor definitely has a supercarrier role. I can't imagine what it would be like to see an Executor completely disgorge its ground assault forces.