Communism - should it be banned??

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Post by Axis Kast »

So, first of all, this is all fine and dandy, but it has nothing to do with banning communism. Even if it is evil and dangerous.
If Communism is evil and dangerous – as you’ve just admitted -, then what’s not to ban?

The only cogent arguments have been as follows:

(A) Communism exists today merely as a legacy (in the form of socialism or social democracy).
(B) To ban Communism would be anathema to “the left,” forcing martyrs’ status upon the movement and swelling its ranks (albeit out of sympathy rather than ideological agreement – not to mention illegally).

The chief argument appears to be that Communism is no longer a threat. While still evident in socialism, its strains are predominately (outside the given radical fringe groups) economic, social, and political rather than violent (by any means) or even revolutionary (from a Marxian perspective).
COMMUNISM IS NOT MARXISM.
You’re walking objective ground.

Communism was modeled on Marxism. Communism inherently draws on the original vision of Karl Marx, even if tailored largely to the agrarian or pre-industrial world. We’re talking about different shades of the same color. Whether or not his doctrine was “pure” in application, the man did advocate liquidation of the bourgeois population and their “craven sympathizers” – that’s hundreds of millions if not billions – as well as an anarchy anathema to all organized government. Communism adopted those ultimate goals. Communist nations continue to forward them, China and Cuba included. You can defend Marx as having been misunderstood and misinterpreted – even misapplied -, but never non-violent.
To blame Marx for what happened under Stalin is like saying that Jesus was directly responsible for the actions of the Inquisition. Well, maybe that analogy isn't that grand.
Marx’s vision called for class warfare. While Stalin obviously strayed from the “true revolutionary objectives” set forth by V.I. Lenin, the framework for his oppression – in the form of Gulags and a rigid class structure – was already in place. The massive socialist beauracracy, Party elite, Dictatorship of the Proletariat, and “purge” mentality were inherited by Stalin, Khruschev, and others directly from Lenin and Trotsky, the pair of whom dedicated their work and drew most of their direction from Marx himself.

Jesus Christ’s is another story entirely. “Love thy neighbor” is inherently different from, “Throw off your chains and liquidate your employer, his family, his class, and his dependants.” Both Christianity and Communism have at times been warped, but Christianity was subject to greater manipulation from its basic foundations than was Marxism. Remember that Jesus didn’t intend to found a new religion; his disciples were responsible for those actions. Marx intended for a nation such as the Soviet Union to rise. One can actually go so far as to argue that he intended for a dictatorship to arise as well given the Manifesto’s actual outline.
Er....Fascism is not Nazism.
But Nazism is Fascism. And Fascism was derived from National Socialism – itself a derivative and manipulation of Marxism (and thus Communism).

If we judge all ideologies or doctrines by their fruit, I fail to see where one can actually vindicate rather than roundly condemn Karl Marx.
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Post by Thirdfain »

How can anyone ask to ban Communism? The simple idea is ridiculous. I mean, shit! This is America! Freedom to do whatever the fuck you want is one of the central tenets of our system, and goddamit, if you want to join the Communist party and support a decaying, idiotic institution, that is your problem, not anybody else's.

It doesn't matter how awful communism is. It is a political ideology, and no government has any business banning political ideologies!

As a matter of fact, banning one political party or another is in it's own strange way supporting the old Communist totalitarian system- after all, isn't communism a one-party system?
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Post by Axis Kast »

How can anyone ask to ban Communism? The simple idea is ridiculous. I mean, shit! This is America! Freedom to do whatever the fuck you want is one of the central tenets of our system, and goddamit, if you want to join the Communist party and support a decaying, idiotic institution, that is your problem, not anybody else's.
The problem arises when one considers that the Communist Party’s very protection under law lends tacit legal protection to its underlying message: that of inherently violent Marxism.

Your rights end where they infringe upon another’s safety, security, or well being. The ultimate objective of Marxism being what it is, I’d say Communism is sufficiently dangerous to warrant judicial action. Remember: the ideology’s state of near-collapse means its message is more difficult to carry out, not necessarily more refined.

Again, the chief impediments lie in that Communism hardly exists today in its Marxist form and a reemergence of untoward activities might occur were it for a ban.
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Post by RedImperator »

So the way to deal with an ideaology that's dangerous to our way of life is to force it underground and turn its proponents into heroes? Let them print newsletters and make websites--any third rate debater could smash Marxism's arguments in half an hour. The West can survive the bitter and addled rantings of a few ivory tower nitwits and anarchists with nose rings who think they're smarter than everyone else. When they start stockpiling Molotov coctails, then you can bring the government down on their heads.
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Post by Joe »

RedImperator wrote:So the way to deal with an ideaology that's dangerous to our way of life is to force it underground and turn its proponents into heroes? Let them print newsletters and make websites--any third rate debater could smash Marxism's arguments in half an hour. The West can survive the bitter and addled rantings of a few ivory tower nitwits and anarchists with nose rings who think they're smarter than everyone else. When they start stockpiling Molotov coctails, then you can bring the government down on their heads.
It's not so simple that you can just effotlessly debunk their bullshit and be done with it. You have to convince others not to buy into it as well, which can be difficult, since Marxism appeals to the most base human emotions.
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Post by AdmiralKanos »

Durran Korr wrote:It's not so simple that you can just effotlessly debunk their bullshit and be done with it. You have to convince others not to buy into it as well, which can be difficult, since Marxism appeals to the most base human emotions.
You could say exactly the same thing about any religion, including the one that starts with C. You can't ban an ideology; in civilized countries, we criminalize ACTIONS, not beliefs.
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Post by AdmiralKanos »

Axis Kast wrote:If Communism is evil and dangerous – as you’ve just admitted -, then what’s not to ban?
I could make the same argument with a different ideology that just happens to start with the letter "C". Should we ban that too?
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Post by Joe »

AdmiralKanos wrote:
Durran Korr wrote:It's not so simple that you can just effotlessly debunk their bullshit and be done with it. You have to convince others not to buy into it as well, which can be difficult, since Marxism appeals to the most base human emotions.
You could say exactly the same thing about any religion, including the one that starts with C. You can't ban an ideology; in civilized countries, we criminalize ACTIONS, not beliefs.
I realize that; if you look through this thread you'll find that I've not once advocated that any ideology be banned. I was just trying to say (earlier) that if fascism is so horrible that even non-violent advocacy of it must be banned, then it's only fair to do the same thing for communism.
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Post by Axis Kast »

Communism is inherently violent. No amount of manipulation need be applied. Christianity is far different; the ultimate message isn’t actually one of harm or dangerous intent. The Bible was written predicated on morality and justice. Marx promulgated the Manifesto with global revolution in mind.

As for the, “We can put Marxism to rest in a half-hour argument?” While I acknowledge we’d turn certain persons and systems of belief temporarily into martyrs, it would at have the added bonus of forcing these people underground – ie, making their message that much less legitimate and more difficult to publicly advocate.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Axis Kast wrote:Communism is inherently violent. No amount of manipulation need be applied. Christianity is far different; the ultimate message isn’t actually one of harm or dangerous intent. The Bible was written predicated on morality and justice. Marx promulgated the Manifesto with global revolution in mind.
Have you actually READ the Bible? There's more hatred and killing in there than you'll find in Mein Kampf!
As for the, “We can put Marxism to rest in a half-hour argument?” While I acknowledge we’d turn certain persons and systems of belief temporarily into martyrs, it would at have the added bonus of forcing these people underground – ie, making their message that much less legitimate and more difficult to publicly advocate.
Of course. As we all know, devoted believers of an ideology are always easily silenced through oppressive measures :roll:
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Post by RedImperator »

LET THEM advocate it in public. Besides the disturbing moral and legal implications of throwing people in jail for what they believe rather than for what they've done, Communism can be crushed in any sort of public forum--it's got a record of failure running the length of the entire 20th century and a hundred million person body count. If and only if its adherents decide to get violent, then the state can bring the hammer down on them and have my full blessing. You've yet to demonstrate that Communism is so dangerous it requires fining or imprisoning people for a belief, something that runs 100% counter to the ideals of the society you're trying to protect.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

AdmiralKanos wrote:
Axis Kast wrote:If Communism is evil and dangerous – as you’ve just admitted -, then what’s not to ban?
I could make the same argument with a different ideology that just happens to start with the letter "C". Should we ban that too?
Yes. :P
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Post by Peregrin Toker »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Simon H.Johansen wrote:"The charges against Communism made from a religious, a philosophical, and generally, from an ideological standpoint, are not deserving of serious examination." - The Communist Manifesto
Sounds like a religious fanatics warblings dressed in pretty diction of a political scientist. :roll:
What is sounding like a religious fanatic's warblings dressed in the diction of political science??
RedImperator wrote: You've yet to demonstrate that Communism is so dangerous it requires fining or imprisoning people for a belief, something that runs 100% counter to the ideals of the society you're trying to protect.
The communist ideology encourages actions which are (and should be) punishable.
Thirdfain wrote:

As a matter of fact, banning one political party or another is in it's own strange way supporting the old Communist totalitarian system- after all, isn't communism a one-party system?
This is the whole point in banning communism for the reasons I listed - would you rather have one political system banned, or all but one??
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Post by AdmiralKanos »

Simon H.Johansen wrote:The communist ideology encourages actions which are (and should be) punishable.
No more than the Bible does.
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Post by Peregrin Toker »

AdmiralKanos wrote:
Simon H.Johansen wrote:The communist ideology encourages actions which are (and should be) punishable.
No more than the Bible does.
Red herring fallacy.
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Post by Peregrin Toker »

As a side note, the Bible - the Old Testament - repeatedly and very often encourages intolerance, so why should it be any better than Communist dogma?
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Post by Vympel »

Simon H.Johansen wrote:
Red herring fallacy.
How the heck is that a red herring? If someone contends communism should be banned, then you agree that other ideologies, like Christianity, should be banned as well, yes?

As a side note, the Bible - the Old Testament - repeatedly and very often encourages intolerance, so why should it be any better than Communist dogma?
Which is precisely why it was brought up.
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Post by Axis Kast »

Have you actually READ the Bible? There's more hatred and killing in there than you'll find in Mein Kampf!
Yes, I have read the Bible. And nowhere does it generally advocate for the slaughter of one given group of people by another. There is no overbearing Commandment demanding that adherents to the Christian faith bring by force their message to the rest of the world. There is no outright directive by which Christians are expected to do violence. That is not true of Communism.

Although certain strains of Christian thinking can be classified as supremacist or unremittingly racist and militant, that can not be said for the majority of its practitioners. Most Communists – not Socialists – will however acknowledge that they advocate an eventual violent, apocalyptic class struggle.
Of course. As we all know, devoted believers of an ideology are always easily silenced through oppressive measures.
That’s a matter of opinion. Laws prohibiting the gathering of Communists in public places or the distribution of Communist literature in public or federally-financed locations (ie, in school or at the workplace) would do well to stifle the movement’s spread. While all “outlawed” associations enjoy the temporary appeal of seeming martyrdom, it might not be too high a price to pay for severely limiting the ideology’s exposure as a whole.
LET THEM advocate it in public. Besides the disturbing moral and legal implications of throwing people in jail for what they believe rather than for what they've done, Communism can be crushed in any sort of public forum--it's got a record of failure running the length of the entire 20th century and a hundred million person body count. If and only if its adherents decide to get violent, then the state can bring the hammer down on them and have my full blessing. You've yet to demonstrate that Communism is so dangerous it requires fining or imprisoning people for a belief, something that runs 100% counter to the ideals of the society you're trying to protect.
Advocacy of Communism – not Socialism – implies violent intent. Communists desire a liquidation of the bourgeoisie.

The real appeal behind making it illegal is that we’d conceivably deal the movement a deathblow. Legal – and thus easy – public exposure would be severely constrained. It’d be unlikely that beyond a few diehards that Communism would ever again gain significant momentum.
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Post by Newtonian Fury »

Axis Kast wrote:Yes, I have read the Bible. And nowhere does it generally advocate for the slaughter of one given group of people by another. There is no overbearing Commandment demanding that adherents to the Christian faith bring by force their message to the rest of the world. There is no outright directive by which Christians are expected to do violence.
You're probably not reading the same Bible that exists in our reality.
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Post by Axis Kast »

The Bible is violent. But nowhere does it extoll any of its adherants to commit wholesale murder as a matter of course. While Moses, Joshua, and others led the Jews to seize the Promised Land and the Maccabees fought the Selucid occupation, God never commanded any of his adherants - Jewish, Christian, Muslim, or otherwise - to "cleanse" the world of any other people. You can't say as much about the Communist Manifesto.
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

Axis Kast wrote:The Bible is violent. But nowhere does it extoll any of its adherants to commit wholesale murder as a matter of course. While Moses, Joshua, and others led the Jews to seize the Promised Land and the Maccabees fought the Selucid occupation, God never commanded any of his adherants - Jewish, Christian, Muslim, or otherwise - to "cleanse" the world of any other people. You can't say as much about the Communist Manifesto.
I seem to recall some intresting bits in the OT, all about killing the men women children and livestock of the people round about....or is it just that this is stuff that they are meant to have finished doing and there's currently no orders for a sequel?
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Post by Axis Kast »

I seem to recall some intresting bits in the OT, all about killing the men women children and livestock of the people round about....or is it just that this is stuff that they are meant to have finished doing and there's currently no orders for a sequel?
In reference to conquest of the Holy Land. I’ll say it again: there is no standing Commandment in the Bible that implies that Jew, Christian, Muslim, or any other faithful adherent should commit slaughter. Whether or not it deals with the history of warfare, the Bible leaves absolutely no orders for mass murder. A marked difference from the Manifesto.
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

Axis Kast wrote: In reference to conquest of the Holy Land. I’ll say it again: there is no standing Commandment in the Bible that implies that Jew, Christian, Muslim, or any other faithful adherent should commit slaughter. Whether or not it deals with the history of warfare, the Bible leaves absolutely no orders for mass murder. A marked difference from the Manifesto.
Ah, okay...so its past tense and therefore irrelevant.....okidoki.
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Post by Axis Kast »

Understand my argument.

Christianity is not inherently violent. Its very existence is not predicated on liquidation of all others peoples. We can't say the same of Communism.
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Post by Tom_Aurum »

So, first of all, this is all fine and dandy, but it has nothing to do with banning communism. Even if it is evil and dangerous.
Quoth Axis Kast
"If Communism is evil and dangerous – as you’ve just admitted -, then what’s not to ban?"

So... uhm... nice way to take my words out of context and claim that I'm admitting something I'm not. Did you miss the word I put in the middle of the sentence? IF. Some people need to take some english.
COMMUNISM IS NOT MARXISM.

And qouth he further
"You’re walking objective ground.

Communism was modeled on Marxism. "

No it was not. Communism actually primarily got it's Idea from a short, albeit short-lived, successful application of the concept. A historical event called the Paris Commune. The fact that no one has the imagination to try a different way to apply the lessons of the Paris Commune than how marx would think it would work is rather sad. But it still does not make communism marxism.

Anyways. <Sighs>. I think we drifted off topic a long while ago. The problem you see, is, no matter how insane the idea of communism may or may not be, banning it is a bad idea on the pure principle. Banning an ideology sets a dangerous precedent. Banning the violent actions of an ideology is usually much safer, as long as they are truly violent and not just mildly disruptive.
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