Military Logic at work

[Batman]

becaose the rifles aren't HV either

800m/sec muzzle velocity. Are you telling me a pistol bullet is going to beat that?

HV rounds regardless of what their fired from are defined as exceeding that, thats about the velocity you get off the pistol

Horseradish. High Velocity isn't a fixed muzzle velocity, it merely means faster than a conventional bullet of that type.
The muzzle velocity of the Colt .45 is less than 300m/sec with conventional bullets.
Please show me a bullet that will

a)achive a MV two-and-two-thirds timesthat fired from a pistol (leave alone leave the pistol intact), and

b)be actually fireable by a human operator...

[Death from the Sea]

The two most commonly available small-arm platforms available in the U.S. are the Colt M16/AR15/Sporter family of weapons (NATO 5.56, or roughly equivalent to 30.06) and the Russian AK47 and its various clones (7.62 x 39mm M1943 round).

Dude are you saying that the NATO 5.56mm is the same as a 30-06? Or did I read it wrong, because they aren't, NATO 5.56mm is a .223 and the .30-06 is equal to the 7.62mm. If I misinterpreted what you are saying, forgive me because it seems a little unclear.

I once had an arguement over which round was larger(caliber wise/diameter of slug) with another Marine. I said the 9mm beretta was larger and he said that the 7.62mm was larger because it was fired from a rifle or machine gun and not a handgun. He argued that if the 9mm was fired from a rifle then it could be a bigger caliber. Eventually I was able to point out that 9 is bigger than 7 even if it has a .62 following it and it didn't matter what weapon fired it.

[Faram]

I said the 9mm beretta was larger and he said that the 7.62mm was larger

Well, the 7.62 is larger if you measure lenght and or weight.

[Setesh]

800m/sec muzzle velocity. Are you telling me a pistol bullet is going to beat that?

HV rounds regardless of what their fired from are defined as exceeding that, thats about the velocity you get off the pistol

Horseradish. High Velocity isn't a fixed muzzle velocity, it merely means faster than a conventional bullet of that type.
The muzzle velocity of the Colt .45 is less than 300m/sec with conventional bullets.
Please show me a bullet that will

a)achive a MV two-and-two-thirds timesthat fired from a pistol (leave alone leave the pistol intact), and

b)be actually fireable by a human operator...

Sorry I missread your post (mental note don't answer posts when falling asleep at comp) The MV of .45 HV averaged at 450-500m/sec, at the range most sidearms are used (less then 15m) if it doesn't go through BA its still going to take you out of action. Also most of the testing I saw was carried out several years ago Kevlar w/trauma plates was about as advanced as it got.

[Batman]

HV rounds regardless of what their fired from are defined as exceeding that, thats about the velocity you get off the pistol

Horseradish. High Velocity isn't a fixed muzzle velocity, it merely means faster than a conventional bullet of that type.
The muzzle velocity of the Colt .45 is less than 300m/sec with conventional bullets.
Please show me a bullet that will

a)achive a MV two-and-two-thirds timesthat fired from a pistol (leave alone leave the pistol intact), and

b)be actually fireable by a human operator...

Sorry I missread your post (mental note don't answer posts when falling asleep at comp) The MV of .45 HV averaged at 450-500m/sec, at the range most sidearms are used (less then 15m) if it doesn't go through BA its still going to take you out of action. Also most of the testing I saw was carried out several years ago Kevlar w/trauma plates was about as advanced as it got.

Ah, OK. That sounds MUCH more plausible. 450-500m/sec is somewhat beyond the speed of a .44 Magnum so I guess that's feasible. I still don't see how a run-of-the-mill M1911A1 is going to take this for long, and recoil ought to be murder, but with a proper bullet I conceed it's possible it can defeat first-generation body armour.
Why that is desirable in a sidearm, especially considering the drawbacks it comes with, is beyond me, though.

As for Raoul's slip-up I can of course not speak for him but my guess is he mentally slipped and used the US equivalent of the other NATO standard calibre, which indeed would be 30-06 (as Death said, the 7.62x51).

[Setesh]

It handles it quite well since it was designed to fire it, the recoil is greater though. Its purpose was to penetrate light armor and building materials (wood mostly) Someone explained to whole thing to me but I can't recall it.

[Batman]

It handles it quite well since it was designed to fire it, the recoil is greater though. Its purpose was to penetrate light armor and building materials (wood mostly)

I doubt a weapon designed before the first world war had high velocity munitions or body armor in mind. Light vehicle armor maybe, and building materials-possible, I guess.

I guess we'll just have to wait for some bored HABer to wander in here and tell both of us how ill-informed we are...

[Setesh]

The A1 was built for WWII

[Batman]

The A1 was built for WWII

...with no major changes compared to the M1911, leaving it a pre-WWI design.

EDIT:And unless this manages to somehow actually wander back onto the original topic, I think it should be moved to the OT forum.
As one of the involved parties, I apologize for the threadjack

[Steven Snyder]

The US Army went to 9mm for politics, the rest of NATO used 9mm, and because it did a better job defeating body armor then .45 at close range.

Only cause they weren't allowed to use high velocity rounds after WWII

??? Why exacty is this? And if your about to say the Geneva Conventions, please tell me which of the four conventions that this is listed in and what Article.

I did some research on the GC, and I can't find anything specific to that.

It is also important to note that the US didn't ratify all of the GC until 1977, and there are two sections that we didn't accept.

[Setesh]

The US Army went to 9mm for politics, the rest of NATO used 9mm, and because it did a better job defeating body armor then .45 at close range.

Only cause they weren't allowed to use high velocity rounds after WWII

??? Why exacty is this? And if your about to say the Geneva Conventions, please tell me which of the four conventions that this is listed in and what Article.

I did some research on the GC, and I can't find anything specific to that.

It is also important to note that the US didn't ratify all of the GC until 1977, and there are two sections that we didn't accept.

Same reason they can't use hollow points beyond that I'm unsure

[Steven Snyder]

Hollow points were banned in the 1907 Hague Conventions as a weapon designed to cause undue pain and suffering. This basically covered all bullets that were designed to expand on impact.

The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions.

The present Declaration is only binding for the Contracting Powers in the case of a war between two or more of them.

It shall cease to be binding from the time when, in a war between the Contracting Parties, one of the belligerents is joined by a non-Contracting Power.

This is as close as I can get, but it has zero to do with high-velocity slugs. Of course we don't actually follow this treaty anymore because they also banned...

Declare that:

The Contracting Powers agree to prohibit, for a term of five years, the launching of projectiles and explosives from balloons, or by other new methods of a similar nature.

The present Declaration is only binding on the Contracting Powers in case of war between two or more of them.

It shall cease to be binding from the time when, in a war between the Contracting Powers, one of the belligerents is joined by a non-Contracting Power.

Which it seems to me that we violate that everytime we use an aircraft in combat.

[NapoleonGH]

Steven: perhaps you missed that little part about "The Contracting Powers agree to prohibit, for a term of five years" See 5 years after 1907 = 1912, the first war based bombing happened in 1914/15 (i dont recall exactly whem but some recon pilot took a sack of grenades with him and droped them from his plane as he flew)

[Exonerate]

Steven: perhaps you missed that little part about "The Contracting Powers agree to prohibit, for a term of five years" See 5 years after 1907 = 1912, the first war based bombing happened in 1914/15 (i dont recall exactly whem but some recon pilot took a sack of grenades with him and droped them from his plane as he flew)

Heh, and it wasn't long before pilots brought pistols with them to shoot down other planes... Then people stuck a machine gun in the nose of the plane, but found out it would hit the propeller, so they had to synchronize the firing with the spinning of the blades.

WWI tactics were actually quite funny. Sticking tanks in the back as heavy artillery, just advancing by running instead of crawling...

[Rubberanvil]

I still don't see how a run-of-the-mill M1911A1 is going to take this for long, and recoil ought to be murder, but with a proper bullet I conceed it's possible it can defeat first-generation body armour.
Why that is desirable in a sidearm, especially considering the drawbacks it comes with, is beyond me, though.

The U.S. Military would most likely be using the various updated M1911s varients made recently instead of the original models made before and during WWII.

[Setesh]

This is as close as I can get, but it has zero to do with high-velocity slugs. Of course we don't actually follow this treaty anymore because they also banned...

HV catridge+lead slug

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

The two most commonly available small-arm platforms available in the U.S. are the Colt M16/AR15/Sporter family of weapons (NATO 5.56, or roughly equivalent to 30.06) and the Russian AK47 and its various clones (7.62 x 39mm M1943 round).

Dude are you saying that the NATO 5.56mm is the same as a 30-06? Or did I read it wrong, because they aren't, NATO 5.56mm is a .223 and the .30-06 is equal to the 7.62mm. If I misinterpreted what you are saying, forgive me because it seems a little unclear.

No, actually you got it dead-on. I screwed up the numbers there. 30.06 corresponds to the AK/SKS family, whereas .223 corresponds to the M16/AR15 family. Bad cold this week, totally fucking with me. Thanks for pointing out the error.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Batman

ever heard of "Express" ammo?

[Batman]

Batman

ever heard of "Express" ammo?

I know there is such a thing and that's all I know.If you could be bothered to elaborate?

EDIT: Maybe I should outline my position a little more clearly.

I do NOT doubt:

-the existence of High Velocity .45 ammunition (I'd still like the info on express ammo,nevertheless).

I SOMEWHAT doubt but am willing to conceed:

-the ability of proper HV .45 ammo to defeat 1st generation body armor.

I DO doubt:

-the ability of the Colt M1911A1 to fire such ammunition (at least with the MV stated by Setesh) without undue wear and tear, if not serious saftey considerations,

-that the Colt M1911A1 was designed to fire said ammunition (if it was, that would render the above point moot),

-the managability (sp?) of a M1911A1 firing said ammo (again, assuming Setesh's MV is correct).

I WONDER why anybody would want a sidearm to have very limited AP capabilities at the price of the drawbacks that follow if above assumtions are correct.

I shall gladly be proved wrong.

[The Yosemite Bear]

The first Express rounds were the use of a larger cartrage, with the same sized bullets, this became possible due to advances in metorology in the late 19th century, and people hunting big game like buffalo, elephants etc.

The first .45 express type pistol, was the Pre-civil war "Walker Colts" longer barreled and holding TWICE the powder as a standard .44 Colt, they considerably out ranged and out penetrated normal six shooters.

later they were called "Magnums" because the rounds were shaped like a wine bottle (Big and fat. narrowing to a small bullet).

Before WWI the US army used a number of High Velocity rifles particularly the Sharps, and Teddy Roosevelt's "Rough Riders" using express rifles and pistols. Technically an Express load is the same thing as a High Velocity or a Magnum load, they were just called express loads before they were called magnums.

[Batman]

TYB-

1. Much obliged. Any technicals on the express rounds?

2. I know this must be typo, but this

this became possible due to advances in metorology

(emphasis mine)

sounds like the advances were due to better weather prediction

[jegs2]

I recently got to talk to a retired Army Col. who explained to me the reason the Army switched side arms from the Colt 1911A1 to the Berretta 9mm.

It was done because they were recruiting more women into the ranks at the time and it was belived that the Colt was 'to large, to heavy and has to much kick' for women to fire effectivly.

I found this amusing since a friend of mine who's still in the Army tells me that for the 5th year running the Army's top ranked pistol marksman is a woman and her weapon of choice is the Colt 1911A1

My little sister enlisted in the Army in 1990, and she fired expert on her M-16 during BRM in Basic Training. I fired only sharpshooter when I'd gone through...

[The Yosemite Bear]

TYB-

1. Much obliged. Any technicals on the express rounds?

2. I know this must be typo, but this

this became possible due to advances in metorology

(emphasis mine)

sounds like the advances were due to better weather prediction

My spelling is notoriously awful, and spell checkers won't correct it when I actually do type in the wrong word as long as it's an actual word (Which accounts for most of my mistakes), strangely I manged to score very high on the IQ tests, I just can't spell worth shit.

[NapoleonGH]

bear: spelling and IQ arent really related best as i know, i have a pretty respectable IQ as does every member of my family but my entire paternal line (as far as I know) cannot spell well.

[Batman]

I'm not criticizing, it was just so wonderfully easy to humourously misunderstand.

That, and I never criticize ursines with automatic weapons