Liquid as counter to G-Forces

[weemadando]

Why can people not see a link between fluid under pressure and the person in the fluid being under pressure?

[kojikun]

because people lack brains?

[Sebastin]

What the fuck does this have to do with pressure. The question was wether you could protect from g-forces with liquids. Yes you can. This protection happens to have the side effect of subjecting the body to pressure (and I fail to see where anyone doubted this). This may or may not make the whole thing impractical, but it doesn´t change the fact that it is a working protection from g-forces. pressure != g-forces.

[kojikun]

but sebastin, the point is that even if youre submerged in a tank of water, you still feel the g-forces. you dont get the blood loss from the brain, but you still get the compression over your body. and at some point, whether its length of sustained low gee acceleration (10-20 gees) or higher acceleration (30-100 gees), theres going to be some severe consequences.

[weemadando]

What the fuck does this have to do with pressure. The question was wether you could protect from g-forces with liquids. Yes you can. This protection happens to have the side effect of subjecting the body to pressure (and I fail to see where anyone doubted this). This may or may not make the whole thing impractical, but it doesn´t change the fact that it is a working protection from g-forces. pressure != g-forces.

Pressure != G-forces.

Congratulations you fucking certifiable genius, you with the prize. Have a fucking cookie or whatever else you want.

Pressure != G-forces. But G-forces acting upon a body of liquid = pressure.

I speak from 6 years of training and experience here when I say that a human body immersed in liquid that varies pressure like it would if you were using it as a G-force dampener is not going to be in a good way.

Severe bends. Pulmonary embolisyms. Other forms of embolisym. Barotrauma to ears, eyes, lungs and if its really bad, to the heart.

Associated problems like gas management - what are they going to be breathing? Pure Oxygen - fucking bad idea. As once the body is under more than 2 ATAs of pressure then pure O2 becomes poisonous (lethally so) to the human body. Normal air - get around 4ATA and they'll be acting like they are drunk or stoned. Get past 5ATA and it becomes dangerous. So you'd need a REALLY complex breathing system utilising Nitrox or TriMix in order to keep those under pressure alive.

And did I mention the sheer amount of issues that this concept raises? Look at it this way - you could pull INTO a turn or ACCELERATE as fast as you damn well wanted as long as the breathing system is capable of adjusting gas mixes that quickly. But in order to avoid killing or atleast severely messing up the pilot it would have to come OUT of the turn or DECCELERATE at rate similar to the decompression charts. So if they pulled into a turn that put the liquid under 4ATAs of pressure, then they would have to slooooooooowly come out of the turn over the course of about 15 minutes in order to make sure that the pilot does not suffer from any FURTHER risk of decompression related illnesses.

Can I emphasise again how fucking stupid this idea is.

[kojikun]

andy, how do you know so much? you work on these types of systems, ey?

[weemadando]

andy, how do you know so much? you work on these types of systems, ey?

I've been SCUBA diving for 6 years and hold my Advanced Open Water ticket. And with any luck once I get a bit of cash together I am going to go and do a few speciaist courses, like Deep Diver, S&R, Dive LifeSaver and then get my Dive Master qualifications.

Effectively I've had about 60 hours theory time on the kind of issues raised by pressure and liquid.

[The Yosemite Bear]

I just know a lot of S&R people (Who I guess I can't call SAR people anymore because idiots are being stupid and racist (Someone refused treatment from a Native American SAR/EMT because her Jacket said SAR/EMT and the idiot thought it ment she had SARs....)

Someone where's the hammer?

[Shaka[Zulu]]

hmmm... what about the possibility of doing away with the use of breathing gas altogether, and using the fluid in the 'tub' as the oxygenating medium?

yes, I know this sounds like it came straight out of evangelion (well it does), but in fact liquid breathing has been in practice with the navy for certain assignments for awhile now iirc. I see no need to use the types of problematic gas mixes that SCUBA does, as they are severely limiting. All the system has to do is maintain a steady circulation of the fluid, along with proper oxygen levels and CO2 scrubbing.

[weemadando]

hmmm... what about the possibility of doing away with the use of breathing gas altogether, and using the fluid in the 'tub' as the oxygenating medium?

yes, I know this sounds like it came straight out of evangelion (well it does), but in fact liquid breathing has been in practice with the navy for certain assignments for awhile now iirc. I see no need to use the types of problematic gas mixes that SCUBA does, as they are severely limiting. All the system has to do is maintain a steady circulation of the fluid, along with proper oxygen levels and CO2 scrubbing.

Err, that dates back many many years.

This concept originated in the 70's I believe and became famous due to its featuring in "The Abyss". I've seen an experiment conducted with a live rat using the "hyper-oxygenated fluid", which lived, but was probably in massive shock.

The problem is that breathing a liquid is exceptionally hard when compared to breathing a gas and I'll have to check up on whether or not the same problems occur when breathing the gas in solution rather than by itself.

[Shaka[Zulu]]

Err, that dates back many many years.

This concept originated in the 70's I believe and became famous due to its featuring in "The Abyss". I've seen an experiment conducted with a live rat using the "hyper-oxygenated fluid", which lived, but was probably in massive shock.

dunno about the 'massive' part... though we are talking about a rat here. A human could very likely overcome the shock within a few minutes (waitaminute... Im supposed to be drowning... but... im not... COOL!!!)

The problem is that breathing a liquid is exceptionally hard when compared to breathing a gas and I'll have to check up on whether or not the same problems occur when breathing the gas in solution rather than by itself.

as far as difficulty of breathing, I think repeated exposure to the environment would serve to build the resiratory muscles and perhaps even improve lung capacity as a side effect -- the fitness & medical effects of liquid breathing havent really been explored however.

the main reason I brought the idea up is because LB would effectively eliminate (to an extent) compressibility effects from the list of problems with an eva-style cockpit. Aside from the lungs breathing a gaseous medium, the human body really isnt compressible. any such system however would have to take great pains to insulate the pilot compartment from direct impacts with other objects and vibrations from the vehicle itself. The mechanical shockwaves from such impacts and vibrations would wreak utter havoc upon the pilot within the fluid.

[weemadando]

Err, that dates back many many years.

This concept originated in the 70's I believe and became famous due to its featuring in "The Abyss". I've seen an experiment conducted with a live rat using the "hyper-oxygenated fluid", which lived, but was probably in massive shock.

dunno about the 'massive' part... though we are talking about a rat here. A human could very likely overcome the shock within a few minutes (waitaminute... Im supposed to be drowning... but... im not... COOL!!!)

It doesn't matter, respiratory shock of that level is near impossible to recover from. Also, the residual effects (reduced lung capacity due to the lack of complete fluid drainage and the strain placed on the delicate lung tissues) are incomprehensible without long-term testing.

as far as difficulty of breathing, I think repeated exposure to the environment would serve to build the resiratory muscles and perhaps even improve lung capacity as a side effect -- the fitness & medical effects of liquid breathing havent really been explored however.

OK, I don't think you realise just HOW difficult it would be. The body would have to be operating at about 25% of maximum oxygen capacity meaning that extreme lethargy would be the limit of the motion.

To get an idea, run your hand through the air. Now, run your hand through a pool of water. Even better, get 2 balloons, fill one with air, one with water, which one is harder to squeeze?

the main reason I brought the idea up is because LB would effectively eliminate (to an extent) compressibility effects from the list of problems with an eva-style cockpit. Aside from the lungs breathing a gaseous medium, the human body really isnt compressible. any such system however would have to take great pains to insulate the pilot compartment from direct impacts with other objects and vibrations from the vehicle itself. The mechanical shockwaves from such impacts and vibrations would wreak utter havoc upon the pilot within the fluid.

It doesn't matter, even in a sealed environment one is still going to be subject to pressures etc. But in an EVA type example accelerations and deccelerations aren't going to be *as* extreme.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Do you not understand 32 Gs that was survived does not mean it's good for a long voyage?



At 32 Gs acceleration it take over 3 mounths of constant acceleration to reach near C velocities?.

[weemadando]

Do you not understand 32 Gs that was survived does not mean it's good for a long voyage?



At 32 Gs acceleration it take over 3 mounths of constant acceleration to reach near C velocities?.

Here's a SCUBA quote:

"You can go as deep as you want as quickly as you want. But make sure you come up slowly."

Effectively it doesn't matter how quickly you apply pressure to the body, as long as it comes off slowly then you're fine. If it comes of quickly, then, well, its not good.

[Shaka[Zulu]]

well... I for one am not suggesting it for prolonged use at high G. as a means of combating short duration loads like those in combat aircraft however, I think the idea has some merit -- although it is almost certainly more trouble than it's worth in an operational sense, it could be an interesting research item (X-Plane material perhaps?).

[weemadando]

well... I for one am not suggesting it for prolonged use at high G. as a means of combating short duration loads like those in combat aircraft however, I think the idea has some merit -- although it is almost certainly more trouble than it's worth in an operational sense, it could be an interesting research item (X-Plane material perhaps?).

AAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRGH!

FUCKING MORON! GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!

THE WORST POSSIBLE USE FOR THIS SYSTEM IS AS A DAMPENING SYSTEM FOR COMBAT AIRCRAFT INVOLVED IN A.C.M. GODDAMNIT! DO PEOPLE JUST NOT READ ANYMORE?

LOOK TOWARDS THE TOP OF THIS PAGE FOR REASONS WHY THIS IS A BAD IDEA.

[Shaka[Zulu]]

damn man... no need for the caps... I forgot about the earlier arguments ok???

geez... did you even see where I disqualified it from operational use in that post, or did you just fly off on a rant about the first 2 sentences?

to expand on my disqualification... it is more of a research interest for me than anything -- an arena where it could lead to better (usuable) tech for coping with high g-loads like that experimental suit above... other than that I just dont see any kind of operational practicality. just thinking of how much such a system would add to sortie times shows how lame an idea it would be.

[kojikun]

shaka, i'd be pretty pissed too if i just spent time explaining why rapid decompression is the reason this cant be used and then you come along saying it'd be good in a situation that requires rapid decomp.

[Shaka[Zulu]]

yeah, Koji... I see that. I obviously worded that wrong -- my intention wasnt to set him off like that. sometimes these multi-day (late-nite) discussions can swiss-cheese my brain. I apologize mando.

but the operative idea I was suggesting was to use it as a research item on an X-plane. such a system could lead to new insights in coping with Gs even though it might not itself be suited for whatever reason.