Taking up the ST/SW issue with a philosophical approach

[His Divine Shadow]

There are no shortage of black men. No shortage of Asian men. No shortage of near-humans with apparently for all basic purposes identical physical traits.

And? I believe we forget that most stormies aren't white either.
And I think there where a shortage of black men in the movies, very few of them around, ofcourse it's not expected that they would have to branch off like Homo Sapiens did given that most people live in controlled enviroments.

This canon circumstancial evidence SUPPORTS Official documentation of the "High Human Culture" institution--and hardly counts as the contradiction in canon required to override Official.

The high human whatever was not to my knowledge an official part of the empire, or an official organization, but something run by the Vizier(s).

The Empire was racist. Enough apologism. Official states it, canon even circumstancially supports it. They were racist

People in the empire where racist, people high up, but it was not in the law.

Most of the Imperial armed forces were used to quell any political dissent or to enforce the selfish and greedy whims of the Imperial political elite and did quite little to squash the problems that existed outside the Core in Republic times. They are an oppressive waste of taxes.

Thats misuse of millitary forces then.

"High Human Culture", Imperial endorsement of the slave trade, Imperial expansionism, and the Tarkin Doctrine are all questionable goals

They are, well maybe not expansionism, don't see anything inherently evil about that.

Let's not even get into Palpatine's plans for the Empire as outlined in the Dark Side Compendium and his other writings, as well as what he was preparing on Byss.

What did he do?

I'm sure the Third Reich's purposes of squashing crime and increasing economic input are intrinsically good

Same for any society anywhere really.

The upper heirarchy of the Empire was motivated by basic greed and descrimination. The absolute elite were Dark Siders--arguably a religiously motivated group; esp. considering the Sith. Now there's a concerting thought

I can't really think of Dark Siders as a religious cult, they don't worship anything but themselves.

This is bullshit. High Human Culture was encouraged even on protectorates out in the middle of fucking nowhere like Bakura. On Taltz and Kashyyyk, and many other worlds, aliens were directly attacked by Imperial forces and pressed into slavery. The Empire is documented as destroying/laying-waste to inhabited worlds on numerous occasions

Could you give me some quotes?
Seems this seemingly privately run Human culture organization ran deep.

The Grand Vizier instituted High Human Culture--definitely not a naval officer. On Coruscant, the aliens were rounded up into a sanctioned ghetto known as Invisec.

Was high human culture ever a goverment funded operation or organization like that youth organization, or was it a privately run organization that achieved alot of power thanks to corrupt and evil

Seems to me that the Empire could be arather good society after the Emperor his Viziers and other corrupt goverment officials are all killed off and something like the IoM Adeptus Arbites and Imperial Inquistor branch where installed to brutally cull corruption.

It seems to be the Empire on it's own is neutral but is misused by the people in power, this could be solved by internal reorganization, which would be my goal and preference over the New Republic at any rate.
Very much like chuck's fanfic really(Against all Odds saga).

I ain't defending the Imperial system as it is, since it's corrupted and misused, I am rather thinking that it can be reformed and be a much better goverment than the NR or GA ever can.

[Illuminatus Primus]

And? I believe we forget that most stormies aren't white either.

Actually they are. Pax Emperica says, IIRC, the original generation of stormies, being primarily Jango clones, has been phased out. The present generations of clones are fair-skinned and featured.

The high human whatever was not to my knowledge an official part of the empire, or an official organization, but something run by the Vizier(s).

Which is why they say it was instituted by the Empire and encouraged. Give me a fucking break! The Empire enforced it as a law and walled off a section of the shittiest parts of Coruscant for aliens-only.

People in the empire where racist, people high up, but it was not in the law.

Invisec wasn't law? The public beating of Elegos A'kla by stormtroopers for daring to leave Invisec and attempt to buy at a human market? The Empire itself enslaving aliens for forced-labor?

They are, well maybe not expansionism, don't see anything inherently evil about that.

Imperial expansionism (see Unknown Regions, previously autonomous Outer Rim areas, and the Deep Core) was inevitably followed by Imperial abuse, occupation, slavery, and genocide. The Empire expanded because it could and to make more money for the human elite. I'm suppose you don't find Lebensraum disturbing either, eh?

What did he do?

The Galactic Empire as of the Star Wars Original Trilogy was merely a phase in a transition.

Firstly the Galactic Republic was sabotaged through Sith provocation and enboldening of the corporate consortiums.

Secondly, the Galactic Republic is reduced to a censored and increasingly authoritorian regime during a contrived war.

Thirdly, the Galactic Republic is subverted into a "constitutional monarchy" where the legislature had no power and the Emperor's power was nigh-absolute. Massive militarization and nationalization of major industries proceeds. Racist policies are instituted.

Fourthly, the Imperial Senate is disbanded under the guise of "temporary recess" with the excuse of Rebel infiltrators (which Palpatine admitted was just a convienent excuse to do away with the whole legislature). Regional governors giving complete autocratic control over their territories. More militarization and the construction of terror weapons.

The Dark Side Sourcebook, Dark Empire Sourcebook, and the background notes of the Dark Empire Trade Paperback.

Palpatine was going to replace the Moffs with Grand Moffs and then with Dark Side Adepts. The Adepts would also replace much of his government and the Imperial High Command. He would rule absolutely through them as fuedal lords, basically.

It reveals Palpatine's true descrimination was against the Force-blind, whom he regarded as weak. The entire galaxy was to become based on the model being developed at Byss--where a Dark Side elite ruled as Gods and actually sucked the life from the populace that lived only to serve them. A future where the Dark Side would rule without any need for weapons. This was Palpatine's plan for his own Sith Empire reborn.

I can't really think of Dark Siders as a religious cult, they don't worship anything but themselves.

Actually the Sith have specific rituals and supersitions as well as devoutly held philosophies and maxims. And when one of those is that all other Force Users and esp. the Force-blind are inferior animals, well...

Could you give me some quotes?

Wedge's Gamble quite obviously shows Invisec.

Chewie was captured and enslaved. Pax Emperica is set shortly after the Imperial crackdown on Kashyyyk.

Seems this seemingly privately run Human culture organization ran deep.

Funny how the "privately run" organization was encouraged by COMPNOR and we see Stormtrooper enforcing its ideals. Not to mention the enslavement of aliens and the creation of Invisec.

Was high human culture ever a goverment funded operation or organization like that youth organization, or was it a privately run organization that achieved alot of power thanks to corrupt and evil

High Human Culture was a government-endorsed cultural policy of human supremecy. I'm sure Shep has some WEG quotes on it--I'll get on some WoTC ones.

*snip*

A system partially based on some of the New Order's policies and centralized control and defense would be positive. But a regime which existed merely as a phase in the creation of a meglomaniac's private galaxy of slaves that committed genocide as policy decisions and executed expansionism for no real reason other than they could. Such a racist and corrupt society disturbs me greatly.

[His Divine Shadow]

Which is why they say it was instituted by the Empire and encouraged. Give me a fucking break! The Empire enforced it as a law and walled off a section of the shittiest parts of Coruscant for aliens-only.

Sure, take five.

Invisec wasn't law? The public beating of Elegos A'kla by stormtroopers for daring to leave Invisec and attempt to buy at a human market? The Empire itself enslaving aliens for forced-labor?

Not law as much as corruption and you know, ignoring what would be illegal events by law enforcement.

Imperial expansionism (see Unknown Regions, previously autonomous Outer Rim areas, and the Deep Core) was inevitably followed by Imperial abuse, occupation, slavery, and genocide. The Empire expanded because it could and to make more money for the human elite. I'm suppose you don't find Lebensraum disturbing either, eh?

The followed by is bad yes, but generally, I don't see expansionism as a bad thing, I think it's something we humans need to do too, expand onto other planets, and hopefully, other star systems.

It reveals Palpatine's true descrimination was against the Force-blind, whom he regarded as weak. The entire galaxy was to become based on the model being developed at Byss--where a Dark Side elite ruled as Gods and actually sucked the life from the populace that lived only to serve them. A future where the Dark Side would rule without any need for weapons. This was Palpatine's plan for his own Sith Empire reborn

Oooh, baad, very bad, naughty even.

And when one of those is that all other Force Users and esp. the Force-blind are inferior animals, well...

Is that an official sith stance or is it Palpatines new Sith empire?

A system partially based on some of the New Order's policies and centralized control and defense would be positive. But a regime which existed merely as a phase in the creation of a meglomaniac's private galaxy of slaves that committed genocide as policy decisions and executed expansionism for no real reason other than they could. Such a racist and corrupt society disturbs me greatly.

Me too, but the IR seems to be getting more along the right line now though.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

The most simple (and purely canon) way of proving the Empire is racist, sexist, and xenophobic would be to watch the movies in order. After Episode II, all of the aliens, females, and people with different skin color within the Republic, which was then transformed into the Empire, are gone. Gone. They were all replaced with white human males. How's that for proof?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Creationing a enforced-by-law ghetto for aliens by the same regime that annhiliates whole species by decree is not accident or corruption.

The Imperial Remnant is in no way the same state as the Galactic Empire.

The Galactic Empire died when the Empire's government collapsed after Interim Council Chairman Xandel Carivus was executed by former Royal Guardsman Kir Kanos.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

How many years after the Battle of Endor was that?

[His Divine Shadow]

Creationing a enforced-by-law ghetto for aliens by the same regime that annhiliates whole species by decree is not accident or corruption.

The Imperial Remnant is in no way the same state as the Galactic Empire.

The Galactic Empire died when the Empire's government collapsed after Interim Council Chairman Xandel Carivus was executed by former Royal Guardsman Kir Kanos.

I know, but they are the closest we got and many of the IR people thinks of themselves as the last remnants of the Empire.

[Lord of the Farce]

The most simple (and purely canon) way of proving the Empire is racist, sexist, and xenophobic would be to watch the movies in order. After Episode II, all of the aliens, females, and people with different skin color within the Republic, which was then transformed into the Empire, are gone. Gone. They were all replaced with white human males. How's that for proof?

And during the first twenty odd years of the Rebellion, besides Princess Leia, how many of the above did the Rebels have? Hmmm?

[Illuminatus Primus]

And during the first twenty odd years of the Rebellion, besides Princess Leia, how many of the above did the Rebels have? Hmmm?

This is a meaningless red herring, and is total bullshit.

Almost all of the original opponents of Palpatine were the exploited aliens. And the Rebellion as in the Alliance was not very old when Yavin happened.

[Worlds Spanner]

And during the first twenty odd years of the Rebellion, besides Princess Leia, how many of the above did the Rebels have? Hmmm?

This is a meaningless red herring, and is total bullshit.

Not meaningless. Anything but meaningless.

To me, it implies that *other than the Mon Calamari* (which are an important exception) the vast majority of non-humans who were of the sort who would join the Rebellion (not the types seen on Tatooine in Episode IV) are either dead or too terrified to rise against the Empire.

[Tsyroc]

Also, wouldn't non-humans be rather conspiquous in a racist Empire. There might be more non-humanoids envolved in the Rebellion but they have to keep a lower profile than the humans.

This would explain why there is a bit more variety in the races when the Rebellion is going all out to attack the DSII.

[Lord of the Farce]

Almost all of the original opponents of Palpatine were the exploited aliens. And the Rebellion as in the Alliance was not very old when Yavin happened.

*Shrug* AFAIK, the Rebellion was around almost as long as the Empire. It was something about "Alderaan becoming the primary supporter of the newly formed Alliance to Restore the Republic" when the New Order came into power, and that (IIRC) was some 18 years prior to the Battle of Yavin.

To me, it implies that *other than the Mon Calamari* (which are an important exception) the vast majority of non-humans who were of the sort who would join the Rebellion (not the types seen on Tatooine in Episode IV) are either dead or too terrified to rise against the Empire.

How many non-human species are out there in the SW galaxy? And how many humans out there against all the population of all those non-humans? Somehow I find it hard to believe that all those non-humans would be outnumbered by humans, and (especially after seeing what the Trade Federation could put together in TPM) can't put together their resources and crush the Empire if they really wanted to.

[Worlds Spanner]

Somehow I find it hard to believe that all those non-humans would be outnumbered by humans, and (especially after seeing what the Trade Federation could put together in TPM) can't put together their resources and crush the Empire if they really wanted to.

Fear can be used to control far greater numbers of people (or creatures) with surprising ease.

[Illuminatus Primus]

To me, it implies that *other than the Mon Calamari* (which are an important exception) the vast majority of non-humans who were of the sort who would join the Rebellion (not the types seen on Tatooine in Episode IV) are either dead or too terrified to rise against the Empire.

I mean it was meaningless with respect to the Empire. I hate it when people try and distract attention with a fucking dumb "well look at them too" comment. Esp. if it is bullshit anyway.

[Illuminatus Primus]

*Shrug* AFAIK, the Rebellion was around almost as long as the Empire. It was something about "Alderaan becoming the primary supporter of the newly formed Alliance to Restore the Republic" when the New Order came into power, and that (IIRC) was some 18 years prior to the Battle of Yavin.

Source?

[Worlds Spanner]

I mean it was meaningless with respect to the Empire. I hate it when people try and distract attention with a fucking dumb "well look at them too" comment. Esp. if it is bullshit anyway.

Fair enough!

[IRG CommandoJoe]

And during the first twenty odd years of the Rebellion, besides Princess Leia, how many of the above did the Rebels have? Hmmm?

Despite the fact I agree with Illuminatus Primus, I will answer this question. The only other woman I can remember from that time period is the leader of the Rebel Alliance, Mon Mothma.

[Lord of the Farce]

Source?

StarWars.com, on the
Rebel Alliance:
"Born shortly after Palpatine's transformation of the Old Republic into the New Order..."

I mean it was meaningless with respect to the Empire. I hate it when people try and distract attention with a fucking dumb "well look at them too" comment. Esp. if it is bullshit anyway.

Is it really meaningless? You seem ready to dismiss the possibility that part of what makes the Empire seem so racist is that the majority of the ships are designed specifically for just one species, yet just looking at the Rebel Alliance seems to show that they are almost identical in this respect (ie. Mon Cal ships designed mostly for Mon Calamari).

[Striderteen]

The New Republic is even worse than the Old Republic: it is not only
crippled by political infighting and corruption, but also idealistic to the point of being naive. The so-called leaders of the NR are either in it for personal gain (like Borsk Fey'ala) or so concerned with being democratic as to be more or less useless (like Mon Mothma and Leia).

The Empire, on the other hand, is an evil dictatorship -- but it also stands for peace and order. The Emperor is by no means a benevolent dictator, but he *is* smart enough to recognize that the best way to keep the galaxy in line is not oppression but a balanced mix of fear and justice.
It's a classic good-cop/bad-cop strategy: you only oppress those who step out of line, cracking down on dissidents with an iron fist, but treat law-abiding citizens fairly.

I would say that the Empire is the lesser of two evils.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Is it really meaningless? You seem ready to dismiss the possibility that part of what makes the Empire seem so racist is that the majority of the ships are designed specifically for just one species, yet just looking at the Rebel Alliance seems to show that they are almost identical in this respect (ie. Mon Cal ships designed mostly for Mon Calamari).

I'm tired of apologists refusing to awknowledge the presence of anything other than male WASPs with British accents. No blacks, no Asians, no near-humans, no women.

Fact is the Alliance was vastly more diverse than the Empire--and from a canon perspective--we don't know that the cruisers are Mon Cal specific--thats from the EU, and if you want to include EU in your arguments--you must accept that the Empire is racist and xenophobic by policy.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The New Republic is even worse than the Old Republic: it is not only
crippled by political infighting and corruption, but also idealistic to the point of being naive. The so-called leaders of the NR are either in it for personal gain (like Borsk Fey'ala) or so concerned with being democratic as to be more or less useless (like Mon Mothma and Leia).

The Empire, on the other hand, is an evil dictatorship -- but it also stands for peace and order. The Emperor is by no means a benevolent dictator, but he *is* smart enough to recognize that the best way to keep the galaxy in line is not oppression but a balanced mix of fear and justice.
It's a classic good-cop/bad-cop strategy: you only oppress those who step out of line, cracking down on dissidents with an iron fist, but treat law-abiding citizens fairly.

I would say that the Empire is the lesser of two evils.

In other words you've ignored most of this debate which proves--depending on where you live that the Empire let even worse things happen to you than under the Republic and even consorted w/ criminals, or was racist and treated you in true police-state style.

[Striderteen]

1. The Empire is no more racist than the Alliance/New Republic. Neither side has any significant number of nonwhites, and only a token number of women (Daala and Isaard for the Empire, Mon Mothma and Leia for the Alliance).

2. The ships of the Imperial Starfleet are designed by humans for humans to use; lack of alien crew is a matter of effiency rather than xenophobia. We see the *same* thing with the Rebels -- all of their fighters are crewed by humans, and the Mon Cal cruisers are crewed exclusively by Mon Cal.

3. The Rebels consort with criminals more than the Empire does; their ranks are full of pirates, smugglers and other assorted lowlifes, wheras the Empire *sometimes* works with Black Sun when their interests coincide, in much the same way as the U.S. goverment cooperated with the Mafia (both in Italy and domestically) during the Second World War.

[Illuminatus Primus]

1. The Empire is no more racist than the Alliance/New Republic. Neither side has any significant number of nonwhites, and only a token number of women (Daala and Isaard for the Empire, Mon Mothma and Leia for the Alliance).

Canonically, the Empire has NO women, no non-whites, no non-humans. The Alliance does.

According to the EU, the Empire institutes racism, descrimination, xenophobia, and the like as a matter of policy.

2. The ships of the Imperial Starfleet are designed by humans for humans to use; lack of alien crew is a matter of effiency rather than xenophobia. We see the *same* thing with the Rebels -- all of their fighters are crewed by humans, and the Mon Cal cruisers are crewed exclusively by Mon Cal.

Canonically: We do not know that the cruisers at Endor were Mon Cal-specific. Near-humans can serve on human-designed spacecrafts. Yet none do in the Empire.

Near-humans and non-white humans can crew a human starship just as well as white humans. Concession Accepted.

EU: The Empire institutes racism, descrimination, xenophobia, and the like as a matter of policy.

3. The Rebels consort with criminals more than the Empire does; their ranks are full of pirates, smugglers and other assorted lowlifes, wheras the Empire *sometimes* works with Black Sun when their interests coincide, in much the same way as the U.S. goverment cooperated with the Mafia (both in Italy and domestically) during the Second World War.

They allowed and even participated in slavery and general genocide. Hutt Space was more successful than ever and lined the pockets of Imperial officers.

If you were in the Core Worlds you got the police-state treatment.

Stop re-treading--all of this is debunked above.

[Lord of the Farce]

Canonically, the Empire has NO women, no non-whites, no non-humans. The Alliance does.

No women: While the Rebels have two, both of whom were first and foremost politicitians (and how often do we get to see the Empire's political scene?).
No non-whites: So you have x-ray vision which allows you to see behind the mask of all the various Imperial Troopers?
No non-humans: While the Rebels have only three verifiable non-human members, the Mon Cal, Wookie, Sullustan. And two of those has only one visible member from each. In fact, canonically, only the Mon Cal can be said to be part of the Alliance in representation of their species' interest.

BTW, just wanted to mention that I didn't say Bothan in the non-human section because as far canon is concerned, Bothan spies could have readily been replaced with Corellian spies.

According to the EU, the Empire institutes racism, descrimination, xenophobia, and the like as a matter of policy.

Much of the descriptions of the Empire in the EU can be explained by a (sometimes quite heavily) RA/NR biased view (remember the window analogy concerning Star Wars?).

Canonically: We do not know that the cruisers at Endor were Mon Cal-specific. Near-humans can serve on human-designed spacecrafts. Yet none do in the Empire.

And how many humans do we see in the bridge of Mon Cal ships?

Near-humans and non-white humans can crew a human starship just as well as white humans. Concession Accepted.

And how can you be so sure that there were no near-humans serving on Imperial starships? Should we assume that if they don't have blue skin or glowing red eyes (or some such), than there's no chance that they are actually of near-human species? And what if certain so-and-so near-human species work best at a gravity that would make humans uncomfortable?
Or how about dietary needs? Just think of the logistical nightmare just to cater to some special dietary needs for a handful of individuals scattered across the galaxy, now imagine having to do that for hundreds or thousands of different groups.
And hell, IIRC, one of the symbols of the Empire was one Garik Loran. Who happens to be a Lorrdian (which can be considered a near-human specie). And there are a number of instances of females acting as soldiers or black ops in the Empire.

They allowed and even participated in slavery and general genocide. Hutt Space was more successful than ever and lined the pockets of Imperial officers.

The only genocide (not counting Alderaan) that I can currently recall being attributed to the Empire was of the Caamasi homeworld, which we have no real details about, and the majority of the information concerning the attack was contained in the royal library of Alderaan. Yeah, like that's gonna be totally objective.

Old Republic: The Hutts can readily go about and operate in the open, and sponsors galaxy-wide viewed spectator events.

Empire: The Hutts are driven underground, and they have to rely on fast running smugglers to avoid Imperial patrols, such as the one that forced Han to dump his load of spice, which ultimately lead to the circumstances that landed him into the Rebellion.

If you were in the Core Worlds you got the police-state treatment.

Like law enforcement authorities cracking down on destructive rioters?

[Striderteen]

1. The Empire is no more racist than the Alliance/New Republic. Neither side has any significant number of nonwhites, and only a token number of women (Daala and Isaard for the Empire, Mon Mothma and Leia for the Alliance).

Canonically, the Empire has NO women, no non-whites, no non-humans. The Alliance does.

According to the EU, the Empire institutes racism, descrimination, xenophobia, and the like as a matter of policy.

Only xenophobia, and in my opinion it is justified -- from an biological and evolutionary standpoint, other species are inherently the enemy, as they compete with us for resources. This is not to say that it isn't possible to have peaceful relations or even alliances with other species -- but allowing them to claim equal rights simply because they are intelligent would be a serious error in judgement.

2. The ships of the Imperial Starfleet are designed by humans for humans to use; lack of alien crew is a matter of effiency rather than xenophobia. We see the *same* thing with the Rebels -- all of their fighters are crewed by humans, and the Mon Cal cruisers are crewed exclusively by Mon Cal.

Canonically: We do not know that the cruisers at Endor were Mon Cal-specific. Near-humans can serve on human-designed spacecrafts. Yet none do in the Empire.

Near-humans and non-white humans can crew a human starship just as well as white humans. Concession Accepted.

EU: The Empire institutes racism, descrimination, xenophobia, and the like as a matter of policy.

Official material indicates that the control systems on board first-generation Mon Cal cruisers could not be effectively operated by other species because they were dependent on Mon Cal physiology. Later models corrected this defiency, although not fully.

3. The Rebels consort with criminals more than the Empire does; their ranks are full of pirates, smugglers and other assorted lowlifes, wheras the Empire *sometimes* works with Black Sun when their interests coincide, in much the same way as the U.S. goverment cooperated with the Mafia (both in Italy and domestically) during the Second World War.

They allowed and even participated in slavery and general genocide. Hutt Space was more successful than ever and lined the pockets of Imperial officers.

Human slavery is officially condemned, and the actions of a few corrupt officials do not equal Imperial policy. Sanctioned slavery and genocide campaigns targetted other species, and were therefore entirely ethical.