Is this a way that Treknology could defeat a Jedi?

[Darth Wong]

As much as some would like to pretend it's a leap in logic, I will remind people AGAIN that the force required to lift multi-ton objects (or throw metallic battledroids around like rag dolls even though they probably weigh at least a few pounds apiece) is far more than you need to crush dozens of larynxes. The larynx is a delicate target.

And killing a hundred or even three hundred Feddie redshirts won't be a problem, since they beam down in batches of a half-dozen, and you can pick them off as they show up. Duh.

Or is there some giant transporter room on the Enterprise which we've never seen and which can beam down 300 men in a single shot? No? Didn't think so.

[Pendragon]

As much as some would like to pretend it's a leap in logic, I will remind people AGAIN that the force required to lift multi-ton objects (or throw metallic battledroids around like rag dolls even though they probably weigh at least a few pounds apiece) is far more than you need to crush dozens of larynxes. The larynx is a delicate target.

Well... I can fence pretty good with either hand. But I cant do both at once. Why? I lack the coordination. Unless you prove a Jedi can manipulate hundreds of objects at the same time, I'll stick to the position he can't force choke them all at once.

Joruus C'Baoth might be able to as he was able to handle quite a lot at the same time, but then again, no other Jedi has dispalyed powers even close to that, and C'Baoth was quite insane.

But granted, a Jedi can dispatch hundreds of feddies piecemeal, but not hundreds with the wave of his hand as it was claimed.

[consequences]

The larynx is also a small target, and simultaneously directing the energy against that many small target areas at once would be a much better trick than anything we've ever seen. Half a dozen at once, for a fully trained jedi, sure, three hundred, no.

And Lord Wong, I'm pretty sure they have more than one transporter room on the Enterprise. So It's likely to be at least 20+ at a time.
Of course, if the jedi in question has good enough control and aim, he could just use a few ball bearings to take out all of them Magneto style. But that presumes the jedi has trained in that sort of thing, you have to figure you still have to concentrate on aiming the projectiles, and any vector changes you induce are going to complicate your task immensely.
I have no problem with the Jedi throwing hypervelocity projectiles around, but until we see them training in the tactic, or actively using it in battle, I'm pretty sure their accuracy is going to be worthy of Spaceball troopers.

[Striderteen]

Although other people have correctly observed that Trek wouldn't send an army after a single Jedi, the claim that a single Jedi could use Force chokes or telekinesis to take down hundreds of opponents at once seems extremely implausible.

Telekinetic Force choking has always been used singly; although Luke was able to continue choking the Gammoreans behind his back as he passed by them to confront Bib Fortuna, he had to focus on them singly to initiate the attack (he turned to face each one and made a hand gesture, whereupon they clutched their throats and backed away).

With a simple gesture of his hand. And the guards continued to choke after Luke passed them. Later in the film, Luke levitates C-3P0, then completely focuses on hugging and kissing Leia as 3P0 is STILL floating around.

There's a consistent pattern: it takes a lot less concentration to *maintain* a chokehold or levitation than to initiate it.

More mundane telekinetic manipulations appear to be somewhat more versatile, but also don’t appear to be capable of mass area destruction; Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon demonstrated the ability to knock down two or three droids at a time with sufficient force to disable them, but only when the droids were clustered fairly closely together.

That's still no evidence that such a thing can't be done over a wider area.

A lack of evidence that something cannot be done does not constitute evidence that it can be. People *not* doing something that would be of great benefit to them if they could do it, however, *is* evidence that they cannot do it.

Given that a wide-angle choke or telekinetic strike would have been extremely useful in situations like the Jedi fight at the Geonosis arena but was not used, I’d say the evidence indicates a Jedi probably can’t focus Force-based telekinetic powers choking or shoving on more than one or two targets at a time.

How would choking DROIDS help? Telekinetic strikes WERE used in that battle, BTW. You can't use Force shoves AND deflect incoming fire at the incredible rate it was coming in from the destroyer droids at the same time, obviously.

The Jedi demonstrated an ability to use the Force to knock down two or three droids standing in fairly close proximity to each other, not a wide-angle telekinetic shove that could knock down a few hundred.

He doesn’t have to be in physical proximity to the victim (as evidenced by Vader choking Ozzell over the Holonet connection), but he has to be able to focus on a specific target or direction.

Vader didn't in TESB. He was throwing things at Luke from all sides with the Force and wasn't waving his arms around like a cheerleader. And you'll note that Vader didn't even use and hand gestures in the chokes he performed in TESB.

Vader did not use gestures, but he still manipulated only one or two objects at a time. I suspect the gestures are like kiyaahs in martial arts; they help you focus, but if you're good enough you don't need them.

[Lord Poe]

But you can force choke hundreds of feddies while theyre blasting away at you? Interesting...

That's not what I said, jerkoff.

[Lord Poe]

Let's cut the bullshit, people. Pick a scenario. You will need a Jedi, a PLACE where this fight happens, and WHY 100+ Federation security people would go after ONE being.

If you can't provide the above, and STICK to it, the debate can go no farther as people seem to like slip-sliding away from the counters to their arguments.

[Pendragon]

But you can force choke hundreds of feddies while theyre blasting away at you? Interesting...

That's not what I said, jerkoff.

But that's what the discussion was about, stay on topic.

And what you do with the hand that isnt typing is up to you, and I'd appreciate if kept it to yourself, no matter how excited you get from thinking about what Obi-Wan can do with his superspeed.

[Lord Poe]

But that's what the discussion was about, stay on topic.

Why don't YOU stay on topic? You haven't provided one single believable scenario for this bullshit fantasy of yours. Try coming up with a cohesive argument. Dipshit.

[Striderteen]

Indeed, it would be extremely out of character for the Federation to send out an army of Redshirts like that. Most Away Teams consist of two or three senior officers accompanied by four or five Redshirts at the most -- or, from the perspective of any enemy forces, hostages and cannon fodder.

[Pendragon]

But that's what the discussion was about, stay on topic.

Why don't YOU stay on topic? You haven't provided one single believable scenario for this bullshit fantasy of yours. Try coming up with a cohesive argument. Dipshit.

All I did was refute the claim that a jedi could force choke hundreds of feddies with a wave of his hand, nothing more, nothing less. Wich was on topic.

*Dips Lord Poe in shit*

Any more fetishes you need help indulging in?

[Lord of the Farce]

All I did was refute the claim that a jedi could force choke hundreds of feddies with a wave of his hand, nothing more, nothing less. Wich was on topic.

Talking about THIS would be on-topic:

Could a Jedi be defeated by a Transporter? Transporters have the ability to filter out any microbial impurities and the like. What if the bio-filter was simply set to weed out the midi chlorians? Would this not render the Jedi's powers ineffective?

Then it moved off-topic to this:

Is the Transporter really necessary ? A few hundred redshirts moving in at the Jedi from all directions while fireing generic phaser rifles should be able to get a hit. Jedi aren’t exactly immune to a large number of weapons being fire at them at once, as shown in AOTC. The phasers may have a slower rate of fire than battledroids’s guns but a large number of them would be able to bring down a Jedi.

And was addressed by this:

The Geonosians needed more battledroids than that, despite heavier firepower, distraction and fire support by the Geonosians and their big sonic cannon, AND the shroud of the darkside weakening the Jedi.

Basically, we're now onto the point of "if the Jedi stood still and waited for all those Federation troops beamed in and moved into position, how can the Jedi do anything about it".

[Lord Poe]

Basically, we're now onto the point of "if the Jedi stood still and waited for all those Federation troops beamed in and moved into position, how can the Jedi do anything about it".

Thank you, L.O.T.F!

[Darth Negation]

How's this?

A Dark Jedi, going on a sojurn to a familiar desert planet after destroying a couple of Federation ships is spotted by a Federation probe. The Feds send down a hundred redshirts, which the Dark Jedi does not stop, as he wants to show off his skills, needs a workout and is very arrogant.

You can take it from here.

[Lord of the Farce]

A Dark Jedi, going on a sojurn to a familiar desert planet after destroying a couple of Federation ships is spotted by a Federation probe. The Feds send down a hundred redshirts, which the Dark Jedi does not stop, as he wants to show off his skills, needs a workout and is very arrogant.

We'll have groups of Feds walking around, burning and sweating under the unfamiliar extreme of twin suns beating down on them, and then the "heat induced" halucinations begin...

Soon, disorientated and dehydrated, the Feds stop paying as much attention, and too readily dismiss an anomally as a trick of the light. The Dark Jedi suddenly pops up out to the sand and quickly dispatches one group of Feds, and disappears before others can come and help.

Trying to prevent hit-and-run against an enemy who can hide in plain sight and play with your mind is a bitch.

[Darth Negation]

That works for me.

[Striderteen]

The Dark Jedi can use Force illusions to disguise himself as one of the Redshirts the way Luke hid in a Tusken Raider caravan when he went to Jabba's palace.

*sung to the tune of Old McDonald had a Farm*

Old Darth Vader had some Trekkies
E-I-E-I-O!
And on those Trekkies he used the Force
E-I-E-I-O!
With a choke choke here and a choke choke there
Here a choke, there a choke
Every where a choke choke
Old Darth Vader had some Trekkies
E-I-E-I-O!

[Pendragon]

Well, since the Jedi mind trick is supposed to work on the simple-minded, I have not trouble beleiving he could just bring them over to his side with a wave of his hand while uttering the words:

"You are now all my bitches."

[Shroom Man 777]

Why not beam in a huge steam roller above the Jedi or just beam him to space?

Okay, that was out of topic.

The Feds could just beam some fat assed nuke or photon torp in front of the Jedi, a Jedi can't run away from a 50+ megaton blast.

[nightmare]

Well... I can fence pretty good with either hand. But I cant do both at once. Why? I lack the coordination. Unless you prove a Jedi can manipulate hundreds of objects at the same time, I'll stick to the position he can't force choke them all at once.

Joruus C'Baoth might be able to as he was able to handle quite a lot at the same time, but then again, no other Jedi has dispalyed powers even close to that, and C'Baoth was quite insane.

But granted, a Jedi can dispatch hundreds of feddies piecemeal, but not hundreds with the wave of his hand as it was claimed.

Dude, why do you think Thrawn wanted to get C'Baoth before he even knew about him? All Thrawn expected was to find a powerful Force using guardian, and he was right. Hell, it's a listed RPG power as well.. ANY Jedi/Dark Jedi Master could do it. Palpatine did the same on a much larger scale, Luke learned the technique of Jedi "battle meditation", etc. But that's a moot point to begin with, since it wasn't telekinesis.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

As much as some would like to pretend it's a leap in logic, I will remind people AGAIN that the force required to lift multi-ton objects (or throw metallic battledroids around like rag dolls even though they probably weigh at least a few pounds apiece) is far more than you need to crush dozens of larynxes. The larynx is a delicate target.

And killing a hundred or even three hundred Feddie redshirts won't be a problem, since they beam down in batches of a half-dozen, and you can pick them off as they show up. Duh.

Or is there some giant transporter room on the Enterprise which we've never seen and which can beam down 300 men in a single shot? No? Didn't think so.

It's not canon, but there are supposedly "cargo transporters" which are a lower-resolution machine, much like replicators. Rather than using six high-resoluation pads, it uses a single large-area, low resolution pad to transport large, non-living objects.

As far as how that would help in using transporters against Jedi or Sith, I have no idea. I just thought I'd add the information.

[Pendragon]

Dude, why do you think Thrawn wanted to get C'Baoth before he even knew about him? All Thrawn expected was to find a powerful Force using guardian, and he was right. Hell, it's a listed RPG power as well.. ANY Jedi/Dark Jedi Master could do it. Palpatine did the same on a much larger scale, Luke learned the technique of Jedi "battle meditation", etc. But that's a moot point to begin with, since it wasn't telekinesis.

I thought Thrawn was after the cloning equipment in Mount Tantiss. Getting C'Baoth was just a bonus.
Thats why he got all the Ysalamiris, to make unflawed clones. At least thats the impression I got.

[Pendragon]

Why not beam in a huge steam roller above the Jedi or just beam him to space?

Okay, that was out of topic.

The Feds could just beam some fat assed nuke or photon torp in front of the Jedi, a Jedi can't run away from a 50+ megaton blast.

Well, when all else fails, nuke the site from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.

Especially with a Jedi involved. Probably the best way of taking them out.

[Darth Yoshi]

When have the Feds ever nuked a planet to kiull a single being?

As for Thrawn's ysalamiri, if that were truly the case, pendragon, he wouldn't have brought one down with him.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Okay, maybe you guys can take a tiny side-trip for me here -- I thought Ysalimiri fucked with force-users... don't they block out Force effects for a certain area? I've read that an Ysalimiri creates a sort of Force dead-zone around itself.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Thrawn a latent Force-user? Wouldn't bringing an Ysalimiri with him put a damper on his own game?

Please explain these things to me, I'm confused.

(BTW, hanging out w/ you people is making me remember how much I used to love playing TIE Fighter on PC, and that's making me nostalgic about SW, which at one point I swore I would never be... :grrr: and yet :twisted; )

[Lord of the Farce]

Okay, maybe you guys can take a tiny side-trip for me here -- I thought Ysalimiri fucked with force-users... don't they block out Force effects for a certain area? I've read that an Ysalimiri creates a sort of Force dead-zone around itself.

Yes. Though apparently, what they actually do is to use the Force to neutralise the Force, since the Force can still be detected by their natural predators (the vornskr) while under massively overlapped fields from the ysalamiri.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Thrawn a latent Force-user? Wouldn't bringing an Ysalimiri with him put a damper on his own game?

No idea where you heard that from, though in one of the NJO books, it is described that certain people (eg. Han) have powerful presence in the Force (even though they are not actually "Force sensitive").