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Moderator: Alyrium Denryle
- AdmiralKanos
- Lex Animata
- Posts: 2648
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- Location: Toronto, Ontario
(sigh) the pattern has become quite consistent:
Step 1: Come here, pretend to debate
Step 2: When confronted with logic that he cannot overcome, run away while still claiming glorious victory: "the Americans are committing suicide by the hundreds at the gates of Baghdad".
Step 3: Go somewhere else, bad-mouth us, and incite various trolls to come our way
EDIT: "personanongrata" being the latest example of this technique; the first cycle involved various libelous misrepresentations of RDJ at trollkingdom.
This is the second time we've had to put up with this cycle. Moreover, these cowardly little shits invaded our forums while simultaneously clamping down on registration at TrekBBS! I've lost patience with these pussies. Each time they come, make an argument, lose, run away, and then send a bunch of trolls our way. They seem to think this is "funny". They even engaged in massive libelous activities, childish defacement of pictures from my personal homepage, etc.
The amazing thing about all of this is that they believe they are somehow defending Christianity through their actions. If they were out to make Christians look bad, I guess they succeeded
Step 1: Come here, pretend to debate
Step 2: When confronted with logic that he cannot overcome, run away while still claiming glorious victory: "the Americans are committing suicide by the hundreds at the gates of Baghdad".
Step 3: Go somewhere else, bad-mouth us, and incite various trolls to come our way
EDIT: "personanongrata" being the latest example of this technique; the first cycle involved various libelous misrepresentations of RDJ at trollkingdom.
This is the second time we've had to put up with this cycle. Moreover, these cowardly little shits invaded our forums while simultaneously clamping down on registration at TrekBBS! I've lost patience with these pussies. Each time they come, make an argument, lose, run away, and then send a bunch of trolls our way. They seem to think this is "funny". They even engaged in massive libelous activities, childish defacement of pictures from my personal homepage, etc.
The amazing thing about all of this is that they believe they are somehow defending Christianity through their actions. If they were out to make Christians look bad, I guess they succeeded
For a time, I considered sparing your wretched little planet Cybertron.
But now, you shall witnesss ... its dismemberment!
"This is what happens when you use trivia napkins for research material"- Sea Skimmer on "Pearl Harbour".
"Do you work out? Your hands are so strong! Especially the right one!"- spoken to Bud Bundy
But now, you shall witnesss ... its dismemberment!
"This is what happens when you use trivia napkins for research material"- Sea Skimmer on "Pearl Harbour".
"Do you work out? Your hands are so strong! Especially the right one!"- spoken to Bud Bundy
I see another pattern:
1. Dwell on list of "proofs"
2. Get list shot down POINT BY POINT
3. Get handed much more extensive list of evidence in exactly the same context as the original list
4. Ignore list
5. Deride list (without answering it)
6. Claim list is irrelevant, illogical, unnecessary, and the work of midget clowns from Neptune (without answering it)
7. watch oponent's head explode in frustration at complete lack of rational answers
8. Declare victory (STILL not having answered what was providd to you)
Oh, just so you know, my "bad mouthing" has been confined to a whole lot of teaseing of RDJ given he's so full of self i,portance he's an adictive target, and direct specific references to Darth Wong's insistance that anything he disagrees with is "illogical."
I have done nothing with the intention of inviting others here. I really can't see any purpose in coming unless one enjoys trolling and getting banned and neither are enjoyable to me.
Now, to the point, agree with them or find them laughable, you have an obligation to treat my material with the same dilligence I treated yours.
I took information that not one of you found illogical or objected to and gave you an answer to each quote from a relevant individual.
You may not agree with those answers, you might find them laughable, but I had the intellectual integrity to give you an answer to EACH AND EVERY ONE.
I gave you a list which was in exactly the same context as the original list which NONE OF YOU OBJECTED TO and all of a sudden you all object to trying to prove anything with quotes. You say they are public quotes and yours are private quotes and when I point out to you that there are public quotes on your list and private quotes on mine you present other objections which apply just as easily to the list you approved of as they do to mine.
You suggest they were different men in private than in public and I point out that some of them came from their DIARYS and you change the subject AGAIN.
So, I answered specifictly every issue present at the time I posted to start this thread including concedeing 4 men to your cause - one of which was involved in the Constitution - and dropping the "carload" objection.
Yet NOT ONE of you rocket scientist has taken my list and given the same due dilligance to addressing each quote as I did with yours.
Instead you expect to confuse and frustrate your oponent by dancing, throwing out more and different claims, and hoping no one notices you have given no answers.
Well I notice, and so does every other reader who is not a regular of SLAM.
Until and unless one of you demonstrates the intellectual integrity to give the same dilligance to the evidence I provided as I gave to the evidence you provided I am forced to conclude that you lack either the intellectual capability, the intellectual honesty, or the desire for actual debate to do so.
I will speak not one more word in advancement of my position until one of you meets that most simple basic standard of honest discussion.
You have two choices:
Demonstrate yourself able to do with my quotes what I (a person you have judged to be short of all your standards for intellectual debate) did with yours - give a specific answer to each one.
or
Continue to pontificate with meanigless bragidocio which does nothing for the debate other than to stroke your already over-inflated self image.
I won't lose any sleep either way.
1. Dwell on list of "proofs"
2. Get list shot down POINT BY POINT
3. Get handed much more extensive list of evidence in exactly the same context as the original list
4. Ignore list
5. Deride list (without answering it)
6. Claim list is irrelevant, illogical, unnecessary, and the work of midget clowns from Neptune (without answering it)
7. watch oponent's head explode in frustration at complete lack of rational answers
8. Declare victory (STILL not having answered what was providd to you)
Oh, just so you know, my "bad mouthing" has been confined to a whole lot of teaseing of RDJ given he's so full of self i,portance he's an adictive target, and direct specific references to Darth Wong's insistance that anything he disagrees with is "illogical."
I have done nothing with the intention of inviting others here. I really can't see any purpose in coming unless one enjoys trolling and getting banned and neither are enjoyable to me.
Now, to the point, agree with them or find them laughable, you have an obligation to treat my material with the same dilligence I treated yours.
I took information that not one of you found illogical or objected to and gave you an answer to each quote from a relevant individual.
You may not agree with those answers, you might find them laughable, but I had the intellectual integrity to give you an answer to EACH AND EVERY ONE.
I gave you a list which was in exactly the same context as the original list which NONE OF YOU OBJECTED TO and all of a sudden you all object to trying to prove anything with quotes. You say they are public quotes and yours are private quotes and when I point out to you that there are public quotes on your list and private quotes on mine you present other objections which apply just as easily to the list you approved of as they do to mine.
You suggest they were different men in private than in public and I point out that some of them came from their DIARYS and you change the subject AGAIN.
So, I answered specifictly every issue present at the time I posted to start this thread including concedeing 4 men to your cause - one of which was involved in the Constitution - and dropping the "carload" objection.
Yet NOT ONE of you rocket scientist has taken my list and given the same due dilligance to addressing each quote as I did with yours.
Instead you expect to confuse and frustrate your oponent by dancing, throwing out more and different claims, and hoping no one notices you have given no answers.
Well I notice, and so does every other reader who is not a regular of SLAM.
Until and unless one of you demonstrates the intellectual integrity to give the same dilligance to the evidence I provided as I gave to the evidence you provided I am forced to conclude that you lack either the intellectual capability, the intellectual honesty, or the desire for actual debate to do so.
I will speak not one more word in advancement of my position until one of you meets that most simple basic standard of honest discussion.
You have two choices:
Demonstrate yourself able to do with my quotes what I (a person you have judged to be short of all your standards for intellectual debate) did with yours - give a specific answer to each one.
or
Continue to pontificate with meanigless bragidocio which does nothing for the debate other than to stroke your already over-inflated self image.
I won't lose any sleep either way.
- SirNitram
- Rest in Peace, Black Mage
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Are you related to a guy named Robert Anderson, GC? Or know him?
Manic Progressive: A liberal who violently swings from anger at politicos to despondency over them.
Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.
Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus
Debator Classification: Trollhunter
Out Of Context theatre: Ron Paul has repeatedly said he's not a racist. - Destructinator XIII on why Ron Paul isn't racist.
Shadowy Overlord - BMs/Black Mage Monkey - BOTM/Jetfire - Cybertron's Finest/General Miscreant/ASVS/Supermoderator Emeritus
Debator Classification: Trollhunter
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GC once again, we have already pointed out that the fact that your quotes exist in no way negates the existance of our quotes, thus at this juncture your quotes in no way prove your point other than to say that some of the founding fathers didnt hate christianity, that is a far cry from saying that they fully believed in the whole christian thing and even farther from saying that christianity had the slightest thing to do with the constitution's writing. Fact is most of your quotes are of the sorta that I already pointed out to you, the friendly to christianity type which makes them rather off topic for this debate.
Please re-post any of them that have them saying "I accept Jesus Christ as my Personal savior".
You ONCE AGAIN, have neglected to back up your previous statements with facts. Give us evidence of the whole 18th century needing to profess religious belief thing, give us evidence of the bible's influence in common law, back up these statements.
Please re-post any of them that have them saying "I accept Jesus Christ as my Personal savior".
You ONCE AGAIN, have neglected to back up your previous statements with facts. Give us evidence of the whole 18th century needing to profess religious belief thing, give us evidence of the bible's influence in common law, back up these statements.
- Wicked Pilot
- Moderator Emeritus
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I doubt he's interested in doing that. He's just another palm fucking troll from Troll Kingdom. Only two things come from Troll Kingdom, trolls, and trolls that like other trolls.NapoleonGH wrote:Give us evidence of the whole 18th century needing to profess religious belief thing, give us evidence of the bible's influence in common law, back up these statements.
The most basic assumption about the world is that it does not contradict itself.
A technicality:Wicked Pilot wrote:I doubt he's interested in doing that. He's just another palm fucking troll from Troll Kingdom. Only two things come from Troll Kingdom, trolls, and trolls that like other trolls.NapoleonGH wrote:Give us evidence of the whole 18th century needing to profess religious belief thing, give us evidence of the bible's influence in common law, back up these statements.
I am a long time poster at TNZ on the TrekBBS (and you are free to call me a troll based on that if you like) but my sole involvment with TK began and ends this week. I was alerted to "Raul" making some rather ...uh...humorus...posts over there so I checked them out and resisted joining the place, which i really don't like until he posted something I just couldn't resist answering.
For the most part they seem to me a generaly juvinile lot obsessed with things which intrest me not at all such as porn.
I have no use for the place and don't plan to go back once the whole "visionrazor" matter is put to rest.
I may be, in your estimation, a "troll", but I'm not a resident troll of TK, just making a guest apperance.
I do not wish my "Right-wing fundie" brand of trollishness to be confused with their "vulgar sex-obssesed name-calling" brand of trollery.
Addindum:
Been looking around some of the other threads in SLAM for the last hour or two and I find one distinctive feature in threads that deal with religion, philosiphy, politics and such.
LOTS of people stating things as fact (i.e. Jesus never lived", "Jesus didn't die on the cross", and dovens of others) and to a post, no one comes along and ask for hard, cold, proof of these statements. Even on the rare occasion when someone disagrees on a minor point of just HOW laughable the Bible is or whatever the topic, not even they say to each other "Prove it" and no one in my reading has yet provided a source which backs up their assertion.
I am forced to conclude that you guys are holding one you DISagree with to a higher standard than those you agree with.
I suspected as much, I'm now convinced of it.
This is not the hallmark of people who wish to be known for rational, logical, intellectual debate.
You may now go into defense mode.
I see no need to continue this farce.
Been looking around some of the other threads in SLAM for the last hour or two and I find one distinctive feature in threads that deal with religion, philosiphy, politics and such.
LOTS of people stating things as fact (i.e. Jesus never lived", "Jesus didn't die on the cross", and dovens of others) and to a post, no one comes along and ask for hard, cold, proof of these statements. Even on the rare occasion when someone disagrees on a minor point of just HOW laughable the Bible is or whatever the topic, not even they say to each other "Prove it" and no one in my reading has yet provided a source which backs up their assertion.
I am forced to conclude that you guys are holding one you DISagree with to a higher standard than those you agree with.
I suspected as much, I'm now convinced of it.
This is not the hallmark of people who wish to be known for rational, logical, intellectual debate.
You may now go into defense mode.
I see no need to continue this farce.
- Frank Hipper
- Overfiend of the Superego
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I'd like you to provide some "viewthread" links to support your claim that statements such as "Jesus never lived", "Jesus never died on the cross", and those "dozens of others". Because the very first thread I opened here was a poll on the subject of whether or not Jesus of Nazareth actually existed, and the majority conclusion was positive.GC wrote:Addindum:
Been looking around some of the other threads in SLAM for the last hour or two and I find one distinctive feature in threads that deal with religion, philosiphy, politics and such.
LOTS of people stating things as fact (i.e. Jesus never lived", "Jesus didn't die on the cross", and dovens of others) and to a post, no one comes along and ask for hard, cold, proof of these statements. Even on the rare occasion when someone disagrees on a minor point of just HOW laughable the Bible is or whatever the topic, not even they say to each other "Prove it" and no one in my reading has yet provided a source which backs up their assertion.
So unless you can show me links to those quotes you just made, I'll consider them the results of direct anal extraction -- as in, you just pulled them straight out of your generously-sized ass.
From what I've seen, we here hold regulars to a higher standard than newbies, because we regulars are expected to know, after we've been here for a good length of time, how to apply logic to our debate positions.I am forced to conclude that you guys are holding one you DISagree with to a higher standard than those you agree with.
So, you came in here with a preconception, and -- voila! -- we've failed to break through your delusions of righteousness! Well, there's a shock.I suspected as much, I'm now convinced of it.
And mocking someone who is being made the victim of slander is? If hypocrisy is a measure of your worth as a Christian (and in some churches, I suspect it is) you should be canonized any time now.This is not the hallmark of people who wish to be known for rational, logical, intellectual debate.
Indeed. The farce began at TNZ, when you claimed you could use logic to prove the existence of God (which is what got me started with GC and eventually ignited this flaming shit-war.) Actually, it is more accurate to say that this farce began in TNZ, when you claimed you could use logic. Period.You may now go into defense mode.
I see no need to continue this farce.
You are dismissed.
- BlkbrryTheGreat
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Almost all the common law in the western world in those days was based on Christian precepts and worldviews. Almost all American law was based on European law.
It's an inescapable fact.
DarthWong wrote:Really! OK, use the Bible to derive common law. I would be quite pleased to see how you derive the basic human rights outlined in the declaration of independence, for example.
Yes, I know its a bit of an appeal to authority, but its quite poignent none-the-less.Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the common law.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814, responding to the claim that Chritianity was part of the Common Law of England, as the United States Constitution defaults to the Common Law regarding matters that it does not address. This argument is still used today by "Christian Nation" revisionists who do not admit to having read Thomas Jefferson's thorough research of this matter.
Devolution is quite as natural as evolution, and may be just as pleasing, or even a good deal more pleasing, to God. If the average man is made in God's image, then a man such as Beethoven or Aristotle is plainly superior to God, and so God may be jealous of him, and eager to see his superiority perish with his bodily frame.
-H.L. Mencken
-H.L. Mencken
- BlkbrryTheGreat
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Actually, the issue can be settled through the use of Jefferson's reasoning on the issue, and since we're using his reasoning and not appealing to his authority the argument becomes that much more legimate.
For we know that the common law is that system of law which was introduced by the Saxons on their settlement of England, and altered from time to time by proper legislative authority from that time to the date of the Magna Charta, which terminates the period of the common law ... This settlement took place about the middle of the fifth century. But Christianity was not introduced till the seventh century; the conversion of the first Christian king of the Heptarchy having taken place about the year 598, and that of the last about 686. Here then, was a space of two hundred years, during which the common law was in existence, and Christianity no part of it ... That system of religion could not be a part of the common law, because they were not yet Christians.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814, responding to the claim that Chritianity was part of the Common Law of England, as the United States Constitution defaults to the Common Law regarding matters that it does not address. This argument is still used today by "Christian Nation" revisionists who do not admit to having read Thomas Jefferson's thorough research of this matter.
Devolution is quite as natural as evolution, and may be just as pleasing, or even a good deal more pleasing, to God. If the average man is made in God's image, then a man such as Beethoven or Aristotle is plainly superior to God, and so God may be jealous of him, and eager to see his superiority perish with his bodily frame.
-H.L. Mencken
-H.L. Mencken
- RedImperator
- Roosevelt Republican
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Oh really. You shall have to inform the nation's constitutional scholars, as nobody, including the author of the decision, Justice Brewer himself, considers the American legal system to be based on Christianity based on this decision. By the way, smooth move whoever posted that decision without the name of the case, the justice who wrote it, or even the full text--I guess you were hoping nobody would recognize that the case is Holy Trinity Church v. United States, a case so unimportant I had to go through three textbooks to find it written by a justice remarkable only for writing very few important decisions for the length of time he spent on the court. Let me start off this rebuttal by linking the WHOLE decision: Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States, 143 U.S. 457 (1892)So, in light of this information, the SCOTUS opinion stands unrefuted to this point since it is neither a logical fallicy nor has it been found to be in error by a similarly qualified and extensive study.
For those of you unfamiliar with the case, Trinity involved a labor law that barred foreign workers coming into the United States under contract to work. The dispute arose when the Federal government barred an English minister from coming to the United States to begin preaching at Holy Trinity Church, in New York, using the justifiation that the minister was a foreign worker and that Trinity Church was in violation of the law.
Brewer ruled in favor of the Church, claiming that though the Federal government was acting within the letter of the statute, Congress had not intended to bar preachers from entering the country. First he had to argue that he could indeed rule in favor of Trinity at all based on this, and in the first part of his decision, he cited a very old English case and a case from New Jersey centered around an 1855 law against breaking down fences. In the former case, the judge stated:
In the latter, the case brought against a man for violating the statute by breaking down a fence that blocked access to his own lands. This is the ruling in that case:'Acts of parliament are to be so construed as no man that is innocent or free from injury or wrong be, by a literal construction, punished or endangered.'
Lord Coke, Pier Co. v. Hannam, 3 Barn. & Ald. 266, ABBOTT, C. J.
Brewer also cited U. S. v. Kirby, in which the defendant, Kirby, a local sheriff, was acquitted of obstructing the passage of the mail for arresting a mailman who was wanted for murder. These cases establish that there is a precedent for overturning convictions based on the letter of the law that violate the intent of the law's authors--the spirit, if you will. This is important, because Brewer's infamous "This is a Christian nation" line was part of his reasoning for how he knew Congress didn't mean to exclude preachers.'The act of 1855, in terms, makes the willful opening, breaking down, or injuring of any fences belonging to or in the possession of any other person a misdemeanor. In what sense is the term 'willful' used? In common parlance, 'willful' is used in the sense of 'intentional,' as distinguished from 'accidental' or 'involuntary.' Whatever one does intentionally, he does willfully. Is it used in that sense in this act? Did the legislature intend to make the intentional opening of a fence for the purpose of going upon the land of another indictable, if done by permission or for a lawful purpose?...We cannot suppose such to have been the actual intent. To adopt such a construction would put a stop to the ordinary business of life. The language of the act, if construed literally, evidently leads to an absurd result. If a literal construction of the words of a statute be absurd, the act must be so construed as to avoid the absurdity. The court must restrain the words. The object designed to be reached by the act must limit and control the literal import of the terms and phrases employed.
State v. Clark, N.J. 96, 99
Brewer analyzed the law based on two things: first, the title of the act itself, and the report of the Senate Committee on Education and Labor, which settled the final wording of the act in question before it went up for a floor vote. You can read the decision for yourself--Brewer spends quite a bit of time dealing with this, and determines that by the title of the act and the words of the committee members, "labor" in this case applied only to manual laborers who were coming into the country and displacing unskilled American workers and driving down wages. By this reasoning, Brewer could have allowed any professional into the country under contract to work--doctor, lawyer, professor, accountant, or, yes, a preacher, who does not typically perform manual labor and is usually trained for many years before he enters the workforce.
Now comes the Christian nation part, the ONLY PART of the decision which was cited here. Brewer argues that no law could be interpreted to be against religion because the United States is a Christian nation. He does NOT define whether he means legally or culturally Christian in this case; at any rate, in this part of the ruling, he is speaking in dicta, which is a fancy-schmancy legal term for shooting his mouth off. His justification for ruling in favor of Trinity has aleady been delivered--you could delete the entire Christian nation part of the ruling and the result would be identical. "This is a Christian nation" was Justice Brewer's personal opinion--not surprising, since his parents were missionaries, and has exactly zero legal binding force in law, which is perhaps why that part of the ruling has been cited exactly once since then in a majority opinion (Holy Trinity has been cited a few times, but always as precedent in cases where the justices are making rulings contrary to the letter of the law but within the spirit), and then, too, the justice was speaking in dicta.
I suppose now you're going to whine something to the effect of "Well, nobody ever overturned it", so let me save you the trouble. First, since it's Justice Brewer's personal opinion and not legally binding to anyone in any way, there's no reason to overturn it--as I've said, it's only even been cited once (I believe David Souter might have mentioned it in a dissent once, comparing the majority ruling with Brewer's "Christian nation" comments--hardly something to help the fundie case). Second, Brewer himself went a long way towards overturning it just five years later, in L'Hote and the Methodist Episcopal Church v. City of New Orleans. (I could not, unfortunately, find a full text of this decision online).
The L'Hote case was in regards to a New Orleans law legalizing prostitution. The co-plaintiff, the Methodist Episcopal Church, sought to overturn the law based on Brewer's decision in Trinity--the City of New Orleans could not, in a Christian nation, pass an anti-Christian law. L'Hote had made other arguments, specifically that legalized prostitution forced down property values and deprived him of his property without due process of law. Brewer wrote the decision and ruled in favor of New Orleans, claiming that the judiciary had no cause to overrule a city's police power if a statute was designed to protect the health, safety, and/or morals of the citizenry--the loss of property value was not a violation of due process in this case. Brewer simply IGNORED the Methodist Church's argument. Clearly, even if the United States is a Christian nation, in Justice Brewer's opinion, that does not mean that laws offensive to Christians cannot be passed.
Any city gets what it admires, will pay for, and, ultimately, deserves…We want and deserve tin-can architecture in a tinhorn culture. And we will probably be judged not by the monuments we build but by those we have destroyed.--Ada Louise Huxtable, "Farewell to Penn Station", New York Times editorial, 30 October 1963
X-Ray Blues
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GC: you really dont understand the burden of proof in a debate do you? THe burden of proof is ALWAYS on those claiming the positive. Ie, you have to prove jesus existed, for a negative proof of something's existance is impossible. You have to prove that these people were religious because there can be no real absolute negative proof, we dont all write down everything we think, etc. so you must prove beyond reasonable doubt (i figure its a fair standard for any attempt at proof). that they were religious and more importantly were christians. ..
RedImperator -
Good work.
The first real argument against my claims in this thread.
I don't disagree with much of your statement but I'm also not convinced that reading into the decision assumptions, even valid ones, about Brewers motivations necessarily undermines the decision. The information I've seen indicates they were the result of an extensive study, so to claim he spoke out of bias is, at best, to reduce him to the level of modern studies which demonstrate a bias in the other direction.
If you find that such an extensive study did not happen and he was speaking "off the top of his head" then I would concede a dramatic loss of validity.
Napoleon -
BUT I didn't make a claim, I rebutted one.
The claim was that the original list of quotes illustrated that "the claim America was founded on was a myth"
My SPECIFIC rebuttal was that the list of quotes did not illustrate or prove that at all since a more convincing list could be constructed for the other side.
While I have adopted several assertions I think are defendable, my original construction of the list for TNZ was designed specificly to refute the ORIGINAL ASSERTION made here and brought to TNZ by RDJ that that list of qoutes proved something it did not in fact prove.
That point - that the list proved what the author of the list claimed it did - was refuted.
The rest is just an extrapolation of the implications of that discussion.
But, I did not make the ORIGINAL ASSERTION thus I have not assumed the burdun.
RDJ-
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=19254
ONCE in this thread someone ask for a backup of an assertion, it was ignored, and it was not ask for again.
and that's just the thread i took the examples from.
The rest you can look for yourself (as if you actually want to know)
Good work.
The first real argument against my claims in this thread.
I don't disagree with much of your statement but I'm also not convinced that reading into the decision assumptions, even valid ones, about Brewers motivations necessarily undermines the decision. The information I've seen indicates they were the result of an extensive study, so to claim he spoke out of bias is, at best, to reduce him to the level of modern studies which demonstrate a bias in the other direction.
If you find that such an extensive study did not happen and he was speaking "off the top of his head" then I would concede a dramatic loss of validity.
Napoleon -
BUT I didn't make a claim, I rebutted one.
The claim was that the original list of quotes illustrated that "the claim America was founded on was a myth"
My SPECIFIC rebuttal was that the list of quotes did not illustrate or prove that at all since a more convincing list could be constructed for the other side.
While I have adopted several assertions I think are defendable, my original construction of the list for TNZ was designed specificly to refute the ORIGINAL ASSERTION made here and brought to TNZ by RDJ that that list of qoutes proved something it did not in fact prove.
That point - that the list proved what the author of the list claimed it did - was refuted.
The rest is just an extrapolation of the implications of that discussion.
But, I did not make the ORIGINAL ASSERTION thus I have not assumed the burdun.
RDJ-
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=19254
ONCE in this thread someone ask for a backup of an assertion, it was ignored, and it was not ask for again.
and that's just the thread i took the examples from.
The rest you can look for yourself (as if you actually want to know)
- SirNitram
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It doesn't matter if you made it originally or not. The concepts of logic, reason, and common sense all demand if you are supporting it, you must support it with evidence. I realize you're allergic to it, it destroys your argument. Are you going to debate here, or just proclaim yourself victorious? I believe we have a forum for those who do such..
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- RedImperator
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The basis for Brewer's assumptions have nothing to do with the question, "Is the United States a Christian nation?" The Christian nation remarks neither add nor subtract anything from the ruling on the specifics of the case--Brewer was right, in my opinion, to assume Congress did not mean to prevent professionals from coming to the United States under contract to work.GC wrote:RedImperator -
Good work.
The first real argument against my claims in this thread.
I don't disagree with much of your statement but I'm also not convinced that reading into the decision assumptions, even valid ones, about Brewers motivations necessarily undermines the decision. The information I've seen indicates they were the result of an extensive study, so to claim he spoke out of bias is, at best, to reduce him to the level of modern studies which demonstrate a bias in the other direction.
If you find that such an extensive study did not happen and he was speaking "off the top of his head" then I would concede a dramatic loss of validity.
It's never been determined exactly what Brewer meant in his opinion, but there's no reason to assume he meant the United States is LEGALLY a Christian nation (a difficult assumption to make in the face of the Establihsment Clause even in 1892), and his ruling in the L'Hote case proves that no matter what he thought at the time of Trinity, he clearly did not believe religious considerations were a legitimate basis for the judiciary to overturn laws only five years later.
More damning, though, are Justice Brewer's own words on the matter in a series of lectures later published in book form in 1905:
Emphasis mine.David Brewer wrote:But in what sense can it be called a Christian nation? Not in the sense that Christianity is the established religion or that people are in any matter compelled to support it. On the contrary, the Constitution specifically provides that 'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.' Neither is it Christian in the sense that all of its citizens are either in fact or name Christian. On the contrary, all religions have free scope within our borders. Numbers of our people profess other religions, and many reject all. Nor is it Christian in the sense that a profession of Christianity is a condition of holding office or otherwise engaging in public service, or essential to recognition either politically or socially. In fact, the government as a legal organization is independent of all religions.
-David Brewer, The United States: A Christian Nation, pp 11-12
Taken together, the evidence is clear Brewer himself did not mean that the United States was legally a Christian nation. On top of that, his "Christian nation" remarks have no binding force in law, and have been cited a total of three times since, once in another dicta by Justice Sutherland justifying the majority's decision to bar a Baptist minister from entering the country for refusing to take an oath to take up arms to defend the country, in U.S. v. Macintosh. Note that while Brewer used the dicta as justification to let a minister in, Sutherland used it to keep a minister out. Justice Brennan cited it twice in dissents in the 1980s in establishment clause cases, both times comparing their (the majority's) decisions to Brewer's opinion--hardly complimentary. At any rate, it's never been used to uphold or strike down any law even though the last century has seen one Establishment Clause battle after another before the Supreme Court. It has not, to my knowledge, even been cited by accomidationists in the minority in Establishment Clause decisions.
Ultimately, Holy Trinity proves absolutely nothing save Justice Brewer believed that the U.S. was a Christian nation in some undefined way. If you want to cite the case to prove the U.S. is culturally Christian, Brewer is a poor authority to go to--his opinion on culture carries no more weight than mine so far as expertise goes, and since he died in 1910, he'd hardly be qualified to comment on the state of the union in 2003 no matter what he was an expert on. And as for proving the U.S. is culturarally Christian, there are hundreds of better sources, starting with the 2000 census. If you're trying to prove the U.S. is legally Christian, Trinity helps you not at all, as it has no binding power, accomidationism is contradicted by later decisions (especially during the Warren Court years), and the lack of any mention of God or Jesus in the Constitution save the use of "In the year of our Lord" to mark the date it was signed by the delagates.
EDIT: Editied for clarity.
Last edited by RedImperator on 2003-05-12 12:57am, edited 1 time in total.
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GC you made an assertion, that in the 18th century you had to make a public profession of believe to get into a church, now you refuse to give ANY substantiating evidence or even any logic and reasoning. PUT UP, or SHUT UP. Same thing for your claim of common law being based on christianity, support it. So long as you completely ignore questions raised about your posts and positions and refuse to support your arguments, no one in their right mind will give you the time of day.
And I reply again, this board is littered with mounds of such assertions for which you ask no backup including another thread you are currently active on. In fact, on that very thread you YOURSELF make unproven claims and no one has ask you to document those claims:NapoleonGH wrote:GC you made an assertion, that in the 18th century you had to make a public profession of believe to get into a church, now you refuse to give ANY substantiating evidence or even any logic and reasoning. PUT UP, or SHUT UP. Same thing for your claim of common law being based on christianity, support it. So long as you completely ignore questions raised about your posts and positions and refuse to support your arguments, no one in their right mind will give you the time of day.
You would have to prove that it was ever inExample the Book of Jubilees was removed from the NT by the Roman Catholic Church
Intresting since that book was dispensed with long bofore the Protastant movement ever started as anyone with a passing knowledge of church history would know....and the protestants
And there are others.
So get down of the moral high ground you are trying to climb, you don't belong there.
I refuse to meet standards set higher for me than for anyone else on these boards which you happen to agree with and which you yourself "conveniantly" fail to meet..
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If you read the post and didnt quote selectively, you'll see it mentioned that the protestant dont have it either since the split from the roman catholic style AFTER the book was removed....GC wrote:Intresting since that book was dispensed with long bofore the Protastant movement ever started as anyone with a passing knowledge of church history would know....and the protestants
You really are as stupid as a box of rocks arent you....
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"It's all about popularity really, if your invisible friend that tells you to invade places is called Napoleon, you're a loony, if he's called Jesus then you're the president."
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"All it takes for bullshit to thrive is for rational men to do nothing." - Kevin Farrell, B.A. Journalism.
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I think you are getting too much of a misimpression by the caracterizations others have atributed to my claims.RedImperator wrote:The basis for Brewer's assumptions have nothing to do with the question, "Is the United States a Christian nation?" The Christian nation remarks neither add nor subtract anything from the ruling on the specifics of the case--Brewer was right, in my opinion, to assume Congress did not mean to prevent professionals from coming to the United States under contract to work.GC wrote:RedImperator -
Good work.
The first real argument against my claims in this thread.
I don't disagree with much of your statement but I'm also not convinced that reading into the decision assumptions, even valid ones, about Brewers motivations necessarily undermines the decision. The information I've seen indicates they were the result of an extensive study, so to claim he spoke out of bias is, at best, to reduce him to the level of modern studies which demonstrate a bias in the other direction.
If you find that such an extensive study did not happen and he was speaking "off the top of his head" then I would concede a dramatic loss of validity.
It's never been determined exactly what Brewer meant in his opinion, but there's no reason to assume he meant the United States is LEGALLY a Christian nation (a difficult assumption to make in the face of the Establihsment Clause even in 1892), and his ruling in the L'Hote case proves that no matter what he thought at the time of Trinity, he clearly did not believe religious considerations were a legitimate basis for the judiciary to overturn laws only five years later.
More damning, though, are Justice Brewer's own words on the matter in a series of lectures later published in book form in 1905:
Emphasis mine.David Brewer wrote:But in what sense can it be called a Christian nation? Not in the sense that Christianity is the established religion or that people are in any matter compelled to support it. On the contrary, the Constitution specifically provides that 'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.' Neither is it Christian in the sense that all of its citizens are either in fact or name Christian. On the contrary, all religions have free scope within our borders. Numbers of our people profess other religions, and many reject all. Nor is it Christian in the sense that a profession of Christianity is a condition of holding office or otherwise engaging in public service, or essential to recognition either politically or socially. In fact, the government as a legal organization is independent of all religions.
-David Brewer, The United States: A Christian Nation, pp 11-12
Taken together, the evidence is clear Brewer himself did not mean that the United States was legally a Christian nation. On top of that, his "Christian nation" remarks have no binding force in law, and have been cited a total of three times since, once in another dicta by Justice Sutherland justifying the majority's decision to bar a Baptist minister from entering the country for refusing to take an oath to take up arms to defend the country, in U.S. v. Macintosh. Note that while Brewer used the dicta as justification to let a minister in, Sutherland used it to keep a minister out. Justice Brennan cited it twice in dissents in the 1980s in establishment clause cases, both times comparing their (the majority's) decisions to Brewer's opinion--hardly complimentary. At any rate, it's never been used to uphold or strike down any law even though the last century has seen one Establishment Clause battle after another before the Supreme Court. It has not, to my knowledge, even been cited by accomidationists in the minority in Establishment Clause decisions.
Ultimately, Holy Trinity proves absolutely nothing save Justice Brewer believed that the U.S. was a Christian nation in some undefined way. If you want to cite the case to prove the U.S. is culturally Christian, Brewer is a poor authority to go to--his opinion on culture carries no more weight than mine so far as expertise goes, and since he died in 1910, he'd hardly be qualified to comment on the state of the union in 2003 no matter what he was an expert on. And as for proving the U.S. is culturarally Christian, there are hundreds of better sources, starting with the 2000 census. If you're trying to prove the U.S. is legally Christian, Trinity helps you not at all, as it has no binding power, accomidationism is contradicted by later decisions (especially during the Warren Court years), and the lack of any mention of God or Jesus in the Constitution save the use of "In the year of our Lord" to mark the date it was signed by the delagates.
EDIT: Editied for clarity.
I fully agree with Brewer's quote above. I have repeatedly specificly stated on these boards that I do not contend that this country is Christian in ANY official sense.
For your benifit, rhather than ask you to re-read all my posts, my cliam started with this:
The list of quotes posted on thes boards claim to "illustrate" by supposedly casting doubt on the Christianity of the founders that this is not a Christian nation.
My prime assertion is that this list does not, in fact, do that because
A. Most of the quotes are from men who did not have a hand in the Constitution which is the document which would say either we are or we are not.
B. Demonstrating they had some issues with the church does not demonstrate there rejection of Biblical Christianity...at the very most it IMPLIES that it is POSSIBLE
C. Far more evidence exists that they were Christians than that they were not. IF - IFIFIF - one says a list of quotes "proves" the one assertion, then one must concede the validity of a contrary list.
Now, the imediate reply to this was the "double life" theory, but this is quickly dispensed with in that several of my quotes were from more private sources than those on the original list.
Since then, the discussion has morphed into whether this is a Christian government - or ever was - becuase my oponents know that is a solid argument. The only problem is, I AGREE with that point so that is not in fact a point at issue.
The claims I have chosen to defend in starting this thread are these:
1. That the vast majority of the Founders were absolutly, in as much as absolutly can be defined in spiritual matters, Christians in the normative sense of the word;
2. That the worldview and thought patterns they operated in, there rubrick for understanding the world, was a Christian one;
3. That, as a natural result of this, and a like proportion of belief in the general poulace, that the "cultural norms of the U.S. in the 18th and early 19th century were overwhelmingly Christian;
4. That many of the official acts of the same government officials which passed the First amendment demonstrated a clear primary or secondary purpose of advancing the Christian religion;
5. that, infered from this, one can only conclude that the "Seperation of Church and State" as THEY understood it, was simply a statement that the U.S. would never encumberitself with an "official" religion and that at the time they were thinking of one Protastant denomination over against the others more so than they were non-Christian sects, although they would certainly have applied it there as well;
6. That they did NOT intend by this wall to erect a complete division between the official government and religion. You cannot possibly contend that their understanding of the wall would rule out things like "one nation under God" when they spent precious (in those days) government funds to publish Bibles.
7. Finally, that the claims I make here are abundntly proveable by a review of every single official document relating to the founding of this nation and the various state from Columbus until well after the U.S. Constitution was signed and that this position is widely supported by other public and private unofficial documents.
And that over against this massive weight of documentation (which is why I quoted Brewer in the first place - because he cited this documentation) the relativly small amount of material in which known men of that era spoke negativly about Christianity of which the vast majority is atributable to ONLY TWO men (Paine and Jefferson and Paine was involved in no official procedeing in the founding of this government) cannot possible carry the day. Beyond those two, almost the entirety of the negative comment can be reasoned to be directed against church practices - primarily those of the Catholic Church or derived therefrom - rather than against faith itself or against religious involvment in government. This is at least illustrateable by the fact that I myself and many other christians from then to now also criticize such "cartloads of trumpery.
Every claim based on those negative remarks - with the sole exception of the fact that they wanted no official religion/denomination - is rebuttable by their comments in other places, both publicly and privatly.
I DID NOT in this or any other thread on these boards contend or accept as my position:
1. That the U.S. is or ever was an officially Christian nation;
2. That we are bound in the 21st century to interpret the Constitution as they did;
(That may be a valid argument or it may not but it is not the argument I have made on these boards)
Is there anything I've left out regarding what I am arguing for and what I am not arguing for?
Again, thank you for quality responses.
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GC no one ever asked me to give the evidence for the book of jubilees not being in the Catholic Bible but being in the Coptic/other non-roman catholic originated religions. I appologize though the Book of Jubilees is actually OT, however here is a comprehensive list of the apocrypha in general
http://www.meta-religion.com/World_Reli ... _books.htm
I appologize for the error, however there are many other books in the category of apocrypha that fit my point.
http://www.meta-religion.com/World_Reli ... _books.htm
I appologize for the error, however there are many other books in the category of apocrypha that fit my point.
Festina Lente
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My shoes are too tight and I've forgotten how to dance
Which is EXACTLY my point.NapoleonGH wrote:GC no one ever asked me to give the evidence...
Don't get me wrong, it shows something to point out your error and apologize for it, I wasn't even questioning whether it was true other than in the most general sense.
What I was saying is all over these boards you guys throw out claims left and right which are almost NEVER backed with a link or any other sort of proof and on almost every occasion, none of you challange each other to "prove" these assertions at all, let aone to the extrimes that so many here would like me to provide.
All these guys are trying to make me believe that it's SOP on this high-class board to back all your assertions with conclusive proof but it's simply not in evidence. I find only that when someone makes an assertion that the majority disagree with that all of a sudden the "Prove it" canard gets drug out of the closet covered in dust.
You don't use it on the assertions you (collective you) make yet you expect to use it on my assertions.
I don't see how that makes for a level playng field.
To use this very subject for an example, no one has yet established how those quotes on the original thread- to which my WHOLE involvment in the subject exists as a counter - establishes what it claims to establish. It doesn't at all. I showed that it doesn't if in no other way then by demonstrating by example that a list of quotes isn't proof as I have been repeatedly informed on these boards, yet there is still not one single posts on these boards by the defenders of Proof, Reason, And Logic asking the poster of those quotes to PROVE they illustrate what he claims they do.
Why?
I can anly assume it's because you agree with his claims.
If you agree with the claim, that's fine, but you still cannot possibly agree that his post proves the claim.
My point is not whether said claims are proveable or not, the fact yours turned out to be wrong only reinforces that a claim was made in a debate which, had it not been challanged, would have been ASSUMED by all to be fact which turned out not to be fact.
Whether they CAN be proved is not my point.
My point is that you never ask for proof for assertions which reinforce your own preconceptions.
It is not reasonable or logical to require more proof from your opponent than you require from your ally.
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Well in many cases we already know the claim to be true or know the same evidence as the person. but, if you note, when you asked me to back up my claim i did. I merely expect the same courtesy from you.
Basically I made a quickly posted fact without giving the bibliographical information, I was in a rush, I SHOULD have posted the supporting evidence for my statement.
Here is a deal, next time I make a positive assertion of something that is factually based I will back it up with evidence. Next time I make a claim that isnt factually based I will continue to provide the logic behind my statements.
Conversly I expect you to do the same thing.
Basically I made a quickly posted fact without giving the bibliographical information, I was in a rush, I SHOULD have posted the supporting evidence for my statement.
Here is a deal, next time I make a positive assertion of something that is factually based I will back it up with evidence. Next time I make a claim that isnt factually based I will continue to provide the logic behind my statements.
Conversly I expect you to do the same thing.
Festina Lente
My shoes are too tight and I've forgotten how to dance
My shoes are too tight and I've forgotten how to dance
That's reasonable.
But you are just one, and none of those who have made demands on my assertions have made them of those I was attempting to refute.
Further, I submitted evidence, which everyone says is weak, not none of whom has addressed.
Why provide more when what has been provided has not been at all addressed - certainly not on a point by point level which is the respect I afforded the post I was replying to?
Your reasonablness is indeed welcome, but it's a tiny ripple in an ocean of hubris washing in the other direction.
I remain open, you and RedImperator have begun to give me hope, but I remain firm that until and unless my evidence is accorded the same respect as the quotes I originally replied to, I'm not convinced that the field is level.
I will, however, in the meantime, try to find an online source for the church membership question. The claim comes from my readings and I will have to find a good source to verify it in a way you can check it out.
But you are just one, and none of those who have made demands on my assertions have made them of those I was attempting to refute.
Further, I submitted evidence, which everyone says is weak, not none of whom has addressed.
Why provide more when what has been provided has not been at all addressed - certainly not on a point by point level which is the respect I afforded the post I was replying to?
Your reasonablness is indeed welcome, but it's a tiny ripple in an ocean of hubris washing in the other direction.
I remain open, you and RedImperator have begun to give me hope, but I remain firm that until and unless my evidence is accorded the same respect as the quotes I originally replied to, I'm not convinced that the field is level.
I will, however, in the meantime, try to find an online source for the church membership question. The claim comes from my readings and I will have to find a good source to verify it in a way you can check it out.
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ok and dont forget the common law part too, i want to see your evidence for those statements, as looking through biblical law, other than the biggies of dont kill, dont steal, dont adulture (which the first too at least are included in almost every source of law since Hammurabi's code so they cannot be said to be biblically based. Adultury is the same thing, there have been laws against it in societies with no connection to the judeochrsitian belief system, rome during the early republican period already had laws against such things, and this was well before they expanded outside of Latium)
Regardless though, if you actually want to convince people of an argument, i would highly recomend defending your arguments.
(i am not giving the sources for the roman statement or hammurabi due to the fact that I consider them common knowledge, if you so wish it, i will find quotes to back them up. regardless though if you want the documentation for roman law look into Seutonius's "The Twelve Caesars" under Augustus aka C. Julius Caesar Octavianus, in his "revival" of traditional morals including anti-adultury laws)
Regardless though, if you actually want to convince people of an argument, i would highly recomend defending your arguments.
(i am not giving the sources for the roman statement or hammurabi due to the fact that I consider them common knowledge, if you so wish it, i will find quotes to back them up. regardless though if you want the documentation for roman law look into Seutonius's "The Twelve Caesars" under Augustus aka C. Julius Caesar Octavianus, in his "revival" of traditional morals including anti-adultury laws)
Festina Lente
My shoes are too tight and I've forgotten how to dance
My shoes are too tight and I've forgotten how to dance