Feminimsm - when does it get out of hand?

[haas mark]

Okay, I have a few feminist friends.. which is okay, except for one problem.. when does deminism turn into feminazism? For example, the women compare childbirth to passing kidney stones. It's proprtionally about the same, I'd think. But women do have a slight advantage on that. But the men's urethra (as far as I know) is a lot smaller than a womans, right? (I dunno, hence the questions). So passing kidney stones for a man is incredibly excrutiaing in the same sense that women passing a child is. But is this a viable arguement to feminists? And where does feminism cross the barrier?

[Faram]

Personaly it can't untill women get exactly the same deal as men.

Even here in Sweden women don't earn as much as men for doing the same work and it is not unusual that employers don't hire women in the child bearing age because the "risk" that the might have a child an so on.

I am happy to expect some "feminazism" untill then.

BTW like your sig

[InnerBrat]

I have to agree with Faram - women do still get the raw deal employment wise - we're paid on average 15% less for the same work, we're considered liabilities because either we'll quit our job to have kids or we're freaks for not wanting kids (Heaven forbid the father might take leave).

I'm not sure I undersatdnt he kidney stone analogy. Yes, the urethra is smaller than the vagina, but, while I've never seen a kidney stone, arent' they generally smaller than babies?

[EvilGrey]

The ignorance here is astounding...

[SirNitram]

The ignorance here is astounding...

...And it's all neatly distilled in you! Do you have something to add to the thread, or what?

[Faram]

The ignorance here is astounding...

Prove that Women don't get the Raw deal

Untill then STFU and go to hell troll

[Joe]

I have to agree with Faram - women do still get the raw deal employment wise - we're paid on average 15% less for the same work, we're considered liabilities because either we'll quit our job to have kids or we're freaks for not wanting kids (Heaven forbid the father might take leave).



I'm not sure I undersatdnt he kidney stone analogy. Yes, the urethra is smaller than the vagina, but, while I've never seen a kidney stone, arent' they generally smaller than babies?

Yes, kidney stones are very tiny, about the size of a few grains of sand. Anything much larger would kill you.

[InnerBrat]

The ignorance here is astounding...

How, exactly?

[Joe]

The ignorance here is astounding...

Look, an idiot!

[NapoleonGH]

feminism in its purist good form is seeking equal rights for women and men, that I support with every fiber of my being.

The problem is that feminists generally today dont want equal rights, they want equal rights AND special privilages. I have never heard a feminist advocate having women be eligable for the draft as well as men for example. Also for instance in rape cases and sexual harasment cases under the current system a woman's say is worth more than a man's, what I mean is that in a case of date rape according to the law when it is a he said she said as to whether she was willing or not, the law sides with the woman almost by default, in many of these cases today the situation isnt whether she consented at the time or not, many of these cases are that the woman and man were both intoxicated, consented to have sex with each other then after the fact the woman feels bad about it and says it is date rape and under the law if you have sex with an intoxicated woman it can be considered rape. This is going over the line, because in many cases its not a chick who is too drunk to move and is passed out but someone who's had a few beers heavily buzzed to moderately drunk who is agreeing to this. Several of my college aged friends have had this happen to them, two were kicked out of school for it and were facing criminal charges last I checked. This is going too far.

[EvilGrey]

The ignorance here is astounding...

Prove that Women don't get the Raw deal

Untill then STFU and go to hell troll

Surely the whore realizes women make up the majority in colleges and are destined to inherit most professional jobs!

Where's the enlightened masculinism when you need it?

[Joe]

The ignorance here is astounding...

Prove that Women don't get the Raw deal

Untill then STFU and go to hell troll

Surely the whore realizes women make up the majority in colleges and are destined to inherit most professional jobs!

Where's the enlightened masculinism when you need it?

Don't call one of our respected members a whore, you fucking twat.

And prove that women are destined to inherit the BEST (not the most) professional jobs.

[SirNitram]

The ignorance here is astounding...

Prove that Women don't get the Raw deal

Untill then STFU and go to hell troll

Surely the whore realizes women make up the majority in colleges and are destined to inherit most professional jobs!

The whore? WTF?

And numbers in college are not indicative of the numbers that will be hired. That's the whole fucking problem, you ignorant cumstain.

Where's the enlightened masculinism when you need it?

Not in you, that's for damn sure.

[Faram]

Surely the whore realizes women make up the majority in colleges and are destined to inherit most professional jobs!

Where's the enlightened masculinism when you need it?

Hey dumbass

Over here you get to college depending on your GRADES!

If a woman gets a higher grade then me she get the position in shool and I get my 2nd or 3rd choise.

What's the matter can't take the competition?

Just because you are dumb and lost don't mean you got the raw deal.

Asshole

[Nova Andromeda]

--First off, passing kidney stones is etremely painful. I know at least one person who has done so and he said is was by far the most pain experience of his life. That means more painful than broken bones. I don't know how painful child birth is perse.
--Second, feminism goes to far when women want exactly the same consideration as men in all things and ignore the fact that men and women are different. Men do some things better than women (such as jobs requiring high strength) and women do some things better than men (such as things needing high dexterity). However, until a women gets paid the same as a man for the same work things are unfair. Currently, women do not get paid the same for the same work and I'd bet there is a glass ceiling too.

[EvilGrey]

Surely the whore realizes women make up the majority in colleges and are destined to inherit most professional jobs!

Where's the enlightened masculinism when you need it?

Hey dumbass

Over here you get to college depending on your GRADES!

If a woman gets a higher grade then me she get the position in shool and I get my 2nd or 3rd choise.

What's the matter can't take the competition?

Just because you are dumb and lost don't mean you got the raw deal.

Asshole

[Joe]

Wow, what an intelligent response. I'm sure everyone is in awe of your cunning wit and piercing intellect.

[InnerBrat]

The problem is that feminists generally today dont want equal rights, they want equal rights AND special privilages.

I deny that - as the self appointed official Board Feminazi.
Obviously, I can only give my opinions as a feminist, but noone can speak for the entireity of any movement...

I have never heard a feminist advocate having women be eligable for the draft as well as men for example.

*hand up* me, sort of.
OK, I'm anti draft,
and I don't think women are much good in the front line as cannon fodder (not going to get into it here, we did this a while ago)
BUT in a draft situation, I dont' see why women can't be drafted into other positions (not that I understand how the army works - but in principle)

OK, on to stuff I do know about...

Also for instance in rape cases and sexual harasment cases under the current system a woman's say is worth more than a man's, what I mean is that in a case of date rape according to the law when it is a he said she said as to whether she was willing or not, the law sides with the woman almost by default,

No, in rape cases, it is the victim's word against the defendant. This is important, as not all rape victims are female.

in many of these cases today the situation isnt whether she consented at the time or not, many of these cases are that the woman and man were both intoxicated, consented to have sex with each other then after the fact the woman feels bad about it and says it is date rape and under the law if you have sex with an intoxicated woman it can be considered rape.

That particular law has not been implimented here yet - but it will be soon. The reasoning behind it is that a person undre the influence of alcohol is not capable of thinking straight (hence drink driving laws) and, IMO, cannot give consent, much like a 15 year old cannot give consent.

This is going over the line, because in many cases its not a chick who is too drunk to move and is passed out but someone who's had a few beers heavily buzzed to moderately drunk who is agreeing to this. Several of my college aged friends have had this happen to them, two were kicked out of school for it and were facing criminal charges last I checked. This is going too far.

And in many cases (and I speak from experience) the woman is too drunk too move.
I'm not saying that this isn't a grey area, but the point is, I think, to put a warning signal into the man's (sorry, I've reverted to this sit - but you get the pic) head that he shouldn't take advantage of a drunk woman.
Of course, I still think that in this case it is up to the victim to provide evdence she was too drunk, but this is why reporting the incident quckly enough to do blood tests are important.

EvilGrey, please explain your reasoning behind calling me a whore...


--edit-- apparently feminazis can't spell....

[Nova Andromeda]

And in many cases (and I speak from experience) the woman is too drunk too move.
I'm not saying that this isn't a grey area, but the point is, I think, to put a warning signal into the man's (sorry, I've reverted to this sit - but you get the pic) head that he shouldn't take advantage of a drunk woman.
Of course, I still think that in this case it is up to the victim to provide evdence she was too drunk, but this is why reporting the incident quckly enough to do blood tests are important.

--So where do you stand in the case where both parties are drunk to the same extent (for the sake of arguement). I figure if that is the case and they have sex it is the fault of both parties and either both parties should receive the same punishment or no punishment at all. To avoid this problem people should not get drunk if they cannot control themselves and should say whether they are willing to have sex before they get drunk. The default position is then clearly that they are not willing to have sex while drunk.

[haas mark]

The ignorance here is astounding...

Prove that Women don't get the Raw deal

Untill then STFU and go to hell troll

Surely the whore realizes women make up the majority in colleges and are destined to inherit most professional jobs!

Where's the enlightened masculinism when you need it?

I'm sorry, but I didn't know I created this thread with the intention of calling names like a childish FOOL..



innerbrat ~ Personally, in some cases, I am a feminist. One such place being having women being drafted, or no draft at all. I hate the idea of the draft, for many reasons, but we can't help it. Among that, the women's right to shoot weapons.

As for the rape cases, although not all rape victims are women, they are not likely to report that rape, and men less likely so.



As for myself, I advocate having women get equal pay for equal work, BUT as long as they do the work JUST AS WELL.

[InnerBrat]

--So where do you stand in the case where both parties are drunk to the same extent (for the sake of arguement). I figure if that is the case and they have sex it is the fault of both parties and either both parties should receive the same punishment or no punishment at all. To avoid this problem people should not get drunk if they cannot control themselves and should say whether they are willing to have sex before they get drunk. The default position is then clearly that they are not willing to have sex while drunk.

Hmmmm....
If both parties are equally drunk, and neither wants sex, then sex doesn't happen.
If both parties are equally drunk and both wants sex, then it's not rape.

If the man was as drunk as I was in the above example, then sex cannot physically happen...

If both parties are drunk to a lesser extent (i.e. being able to move), then:
If the woman thinks she wants sex because she's drunk, but would have said no if she's sober, then she shouldn't be drunk, yes, and it's both parties' responisbility.
If the woman says 'no' and the man is too drunk to relaise she means it, it's his fault, and it's rape.

So I think I agree with you...

[NapoleonGH]

Problem is Innerbrat that i would wager the vast majority of consentual sexual encounters, outside of monogamous relationships, happen when one or more of the parties are under the influence of alcohol. Yes there is a point when having sex with someone who is so drunk that they are unconscious is wrong, but my point is that having sex with anyone who is unconscious is wrong. beyond that the woman/man CHOSE to get drunk, they knew their inhibitions would be reduced and that alcohol seems to make people get horny, I have NO sympathy for people who go into a situation eyes open choose to impair themselves and then get all upset over what happens. Yes it is just like drunk driving, the person chose to drive drunk, and they have to deal with the consequences, same thing you chose to screw drunk, deal with the consequences, dont blame your partner who was probably a little drunk too for his/her actions.

Furthermore yes it is true that the ALLEGED victim is given more credit than the ALLEGED rapist, this i consider wholy unacceptable, I am one of the people who very strongly believes that no just society can exist where a system is designed in such a way that it is extremely easy for an innocent person to go to jail, just to make sure you get all the guilty. I say it is worth it to allow a few guilty to go free than to wrongfully imprison a single innocent man. Furhtermore I thought that in the US (except Louisianna who use the Napoleonic Code) you are INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY, i guess except in rape cases where you are Guilty until proven innocent.

[InnerBrat]

OK, as far as the alcohol question goes, I think it has to be taken on a case by case basis, with reduced capabilities by inebriation being a use for non-consent -like statuatory rape, which is very often overlooked (e.g. 17yr boy/15yr girl)

Furthermore yes it is true that the ALLEGED victim is given more credit than the ALLEGED rapist, this i consider wholy unacceptable, I am one of the people who very strongly believes that no just society can exist where a system is designed in such a way that it is extremely easy for an innocent person to go to jail, just to make sure you get all the guilty. I say it is worth it to allow a few guilty to go free than to wrongfully imprison a single innocent man. Furhtermore I thought that in the US (except Louisianna who use the Napoleonic Code) you are INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY, i guess except in rape cases where you are Guilty until proven innocent.

Thing is with rape, is it is a case of her word against his, and hard evidence is difficult to come by. Let's take alcohol out of the question, here: two of your friends have had sex. He says she wanted it. She says she didn't want it, begged him to stop, fought him, and cryed while he raped her.
There is rarely any hard proof that either occured - so rarely, in fact, that we're not talking about a few guilty for one innocent, we're talking potentially HUNDREDS of guilty men, and the possibility of a growing culture where rape is OK.
I agree, BTW, that the justice system should protect the wrongly accused (and I FIRMLY support anonymity for murder and rape defendants), but tehy should also bear in mind the suffering of victims, and victims of rape go through a hell of a lot in the courts as it is - more so than any other crime, because of the severity of the crime, the trauma of the experience itself, and then the 'my word against yours' nature of the trial itself.

[haas mark]

But then, innerbrat, how often are our court systems sexist? We talk of equal rights, but in the courtrooms, men are the ones that are thrown down.

[InnerBrat]

As for myself, I advocate having women get equal pay for equal work, BUT as long as they do the work JUST AS WELL.

Now that's just a silly statement. I advocate black people and gays getting equal pay for equal work, BUT as long as they do the work JUST AS WELL.