Mothers in Combat

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Mothers in Combat

Post by Tsyroc »

Well this should bring up some interesting situations. The military has been going to great lengths to integrate it's forces including putting women in front line situations. Now what? Is being a mother going to disqualifiy women from certain postings, jobs, being in the service at all?

I know the Navy has gone to some length to make sure female sailors were less likely to use pregnacy as a way of getting out of deployments. This article suggest that some might want things changed back and perhaps expanded upon.

One thing I want to know though. Why is there such a big deal about mothers (other than today being Mother's day) when fathers have been dying in the military services for a long time? I guess the article kind of answers that question when looking at who is making the complaints.

Associated Press wrote: (May 11) - With one single mother from the U.S. Army killed in Iraq and another wounded and captured, some conservatives are urging the military to halt its march toward gender equality and restrict the deployment of mothers in war zones.

``Healthy, responsible nations do not send the mothers of small children to or near the front lines - that violates the most basic human instincts,'' said Allan Carlson, a historian affiliated with the Family Research Council.

For now, the cause has found few champions in Congress or at the Pentagon; politicians and commanders are pleased by the all-volunteer military's performance in Iraq and proud that three ambushed servicewomen became national heroes. But the critics - mostly from groups opposed to the feminist movement - vow to maintain pressure in hopes the Bush administration might one day review deployment policies.

Bush, asked about the matter Thursday, said it will be ``up to the generals'' to determine if any changes are warranted.

Among the fiercest critics of current policy is conservative activist Phyllis Schlafly, president of the Eagle Forum, who recently wrote a commentary titled ``Does the Military Have the Nerve to Celebrate Mother's Day?''

She contended that the women caught in the ambush of the 507th Maintenance Company in Iraq - Jessica Lynch, who was rescued by commandos, and single mothers Lori Piestewa, who was killed, and Shoshana Johnson, who was wounded - did not volunteer for the Army with the ambition of serving in combat.

``The reason these sorry things have happened is that the men in our government and in the U.S. military lack the courage to stand up to feminists and repudiate their assault on family and motherhood,'' Schlafly wrote.

In a telephone interview, Schlafly said she was frustrated that the Bush administration, which she supports on many issues, had made no effort to roll back Clinton administration initiatives allowing women into a greater range of war-zone duties.

``There is no evidence in all of history that you win wars or advance the cause of women by sending women out to fight,'' Schlafly said.

Some critics of current policy hope that the Pentagon's postwar assessment of deployment in Iraq will look in depth at such issues as pregnancy, motherhood and single-parenthood. Carlson, for one, would like the military to exclude mothers with children younger than 3 from any war zone deployment.

Col. Catherine Abbott, a Defense Department spokeswoman, said any such special treatment would be difficult to implement, especially if mothers were treated differently from fathers.

``Obviously, it's something that tears on the heartstrings,'' she said.

``But young dads miss their kids as well. People in the military are volunteers. When they raise their hand (to take the oath of service) they know what they're going into.''

Rep. Ike Skelton, D-Mo., ranking Democrat on the House Armed Services Committee, said he knows of no one on Capitol Hill eager to revisit the issue of women - mothers or not - in combat.

Women who have children or expect to have them ``don't have to volunteer,'' Skelton said. ``But they do, and they perform their specialties well.''

About 210,000 women serve in the active-duty forces, 15 percent of the total force of 1.4 million. As of September, there were about 24,000 single mothers on active duty and 65,000 single fathers.

Lory Manning, an expert on women in the military with the Washington-based Women's Research and Education Institute, said the motherhood issue is being seized upon by critics because they can no longer make headway with claims that uniformed women lower troop performance and morale.

``The stuffing has been knocked out of their old argument,'' Manning said. ``So their new argument is, 'We can't have mothers at war.' It's a very loaded argument; it ignores the fact that there are lots more single dads than single moms.''

Though the military doesn't exempt single parents from war duty, it does try to ensure their children's well-being. Holly Gifford of the Army's Family Programs Directorate said single parents must prepare a plan outlining arrangements for their children's care that accounts for financial and medical contingencies. A soldier unable to make adequate plans can be discharged, Gifford said.

Linda Chavez, who heads the Center for Equal Opportunity, a conservative think tank, said the military should not equate fatherhood with motherhood.

``As tragic as the death of a father is in a young child's life, it simply can't compare to the loss of a mother,'' she wrote in a recent commentary.

Still, Janice Shaw Crouse of Concerned Women for America, another conservative group, said that with the victory in Iraq still in fresh in Americans' minds, it may be too soon for policy-makers to reopen the debate.

``It's an issue that will have to be handled very carefully,'' she said. ``I expect the Bush administration will address it, or else be in trouble with some very basic parts of their constituency.''

05/11/03 00:45 EDT
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Re: Mothers in Combat

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Tsyroc wrote:Well this should bring up some interesting situations. The military has been going to great lengths to integrate it's forces including putting women in front line situations. Now what? Is being a mother going to disqualifiy women from certain postings, jobs, being in the service at all?

I know the Navy has gone to some length to make sure female sailors were less likely to use pregnacy as a way of getting out of deployments. This article suggest that some might want things changed back and perhaps expanded upon.

One thing I want to know though. Why is there such a big deal about mothers (other than today being Mother's day) when fathers have been dying in the military services for a long time? I guess the article kind of answers that question when looking at who is making the complaints.

Associated Press wrote: (May 11) - With one single mother from the U.S. Army killed in Iraq and another wounded and captured, some conservatives are urging the military to halt its march toward gender equality and restrict the deployment of mothers in war zones.
SINGLE mothers. If I were a single Father, I would definitely put my family first and that would mean the end of a service career, as I couldn't knowingly put them in a situation where the outcome is more weighted towards them being orphaned.

Other than that, I don't see any problem with having Mothers in Combat zones if the Forces have cleared women for combat duties. As long as there will be another parent left behind, it equates to a Father being in Combat.
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Post by Howedar »

War is hell. Having someone's mother die is no more tragic than having a father die.
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Re: Mothers in Combat

Post by Rob Wilson »

*sigh* could a mod please sort out the quote tags in my last message, my part starts after the Associated press quote, so an extra /quote marker there will sort it out. Cheers.
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Re: Mothers in Combat

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Rob Wilson wrote: SINGLE mothers. If I were a single Father, I would definitely put my family first and that would mean the end of a service career, as I couldn't knowingly put them in a situation where the outcome is more weighted towards them being orphaned.

Other than that, I don't see any problem with having Mothers in Combat zones if the Forces have cleared women for combat duties. As long as there will be another parent left behind, it equates to a Father being in Combat.
I think the single mother who was captured was a called-up reservist. Maybe single parents shouldn't be allowed to be in the reserves either? In which case I'm sure this could turn into a class war type of thing if the single parents are only in the reserves because they desperately need the money to help take care of their family. The money/class thing has long been brought to question since the US went to an all volunteer force.

Considering how often the reserves have been activated in the last 10+ years I would think a lot more people would look more closely about being in the reserves.

It's interesting but a lot of the civilian Air Force jobs that I looked at require you to be in the Air Force reserves.
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Re: Mothers in Combat

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Tsyroc wrote: I think the single mother who was captured was a called-up reservist. Maybe single parents shouldn't be allowed to be in the reserves either? In which case I'm sure this could turn into a class war type of thing if the single parents are only in the reserves because they desperately need the money to help take care of their family. The money/class thing has long been brought to question since the US went to an all volunteer force.

Considering how often the reserves have been activated in the last 10+ years I would think a lot more people would look more closely about being in the reserves.

It's interesting but a lot of the civilian Air Force jobs that I looked at require you to be in the Air Force reserves.
Well if they (single Parents - not necessarily just mothers) need the money let them take the Admin roles (pay clerks, paper shufflers, etc) that way they can free up trained soldiers for the frontline, significantly reduce the personal risk and still be serving their country and getting paid. What's more important, being there for their children or satisfying a need to be gung-ho?

If I'd been in the same situation, then Sniper quals or not I'dve had no hesitation in changing to a Clerical role and then start looking for ways to increase my civvy quals in night school and eventually leaving the Army for a better paying civvy job. Family comes first, and if you're a single parent then you can't go putting yourself at risk.
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Re: Mothers in Combat

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Rob Wilson wrote: Well if they (single Parents - not necessarily just mothers) need the money let them take the Admin roles (pay clerks, paper shufflers, etc) that way they can free up trained soldiers for the frontline, significantly reduce the personal risk and still be serving their country and getting paid. What's more important, being there for their children or satisfying a need to be gung-ho?

If I'd been in the same situation, then Sniper quals or not I'dve had no hesitation in changing to a Clerical role and then start looking for ways to increase my civvy quals in night school and eventually leaving the Army for a better paying civvy job. Family comes first, and if you're a single parent then you can't go putting yourself at risk.
But that doesn't always work Rob, take alook at the examples; they were a part of a maintence company and a part of the so called non-combatents. It would be hard to be a part of the service in any respect and be out of harms way, even for admin clerks.

My personel opinion is complex. I am revolted at the premise of the article but am also hesitent of women being on the front lines. Being a mother is irrelevent in my eyes, rather the fact that all sorts of cultural, and phscological issues come up with the women in any dangerous role in the service. If all of the factors in women being in the service, let alone in the grunts, were even (PT and other training standards) then I would be less inclined to deny them those posts. But also, living conditions in the barracks, out in the field, or on ship is currently and probably in the future, uneven and unfair to their male counter parts.

If perse, they could be totally co-ed like 'Starship Troopers' with out risk of rape or sexual misconduct then all of my problems would be resolved. If they become mothers, it really doesn't change my stance much because I believe (while different) both Mothers and Fathers play an equal part in the life of a child.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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Re: Mothers in Combat

Post by Rob Wilson »

Knife wrote:
Rob Wilson wrote: Well if they (single Parents - not necessarily just mothers) need the money let them take the Admin roles (pay clerks, paper shufflers, etc) that way they can free up trained soldiers for the frontline, significantly reduce the personal risk and still be serving their country and getting paid. What's more important, being there for their children or satisfying a need to be gung-ho?

If I'd been in the same situation, then Sniper quals or not I'dve had no hesitation in changing to a Clerical role and then start looking for ways to increase my civvy quals in night school and eventually leaving the Army for a better paying civvy job. Family comes first, and if you're a single parent then you can't go putting yourself at risk.
But that doesn't always work Rob, take alook at the examples; they were a part of a maintence company and a part of the so called non-combatents. It would be hard to be a part of the service in any respect and be out of harms way, even for admin clerks.
But clerks tend to stay inside the main HQ element, and therefore very rarely in a position for an ambush. Plus I was talking about reducing the risk, as I know it's impossible to remove it completely.
Knife wrote:My personel opinion is complex. I am revolted at the premise of the article but am also hesitent of women being on the front lines. Being a mother is irrelevent in my eyes, rather the fact that all sorts of cultural, and phscological issues come up with the women in any dangerous role in the service. If all of the factors in women being in the service, let alone in the grunts, were even (PT and other training standards) then I would be less inclined to deny them those posts. But also, living conditions in the barracks, out in the field, or on ship is currently and probably in the future, uneven and unfair to their male counter parts.
True, I heavily disapprove of the differing physical requirements for male and female combatants, if the female level is all that's needed then why is the male one higher? In truth the female level is set nelow the minimum standard required and that's just wrong. If a woman wants to join then she should be expected to match the minimum requirements set for every soldier - and if she really wanted to join she would ensure that she would, the same as the men.
Knife wrote:If perse, they could be totally co-ed like 'Starship Troopers' with out risk of rape or sexual misconduct then all of my problems would be resolved. If they become mothers, it really doesn't change my stance much because I believe (while different) both Mothers and Fathers play an equal part in the life of a child.
I don't see the Co-ed system ever coming into play, men are simply too protective of women in todays culture, and that's can cause problems on th battlefield. I relaise that women can be just as effective as men on the battlefield, but the mens attitude will prevent them from acting effeciently at this moment in time. Who knows, maybe in the future.
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Re: Mothers in Combat

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Rob Wilson wrote:
But clerks tend to stay inside the main HQ element, and therefore very rarely in a position for an ambush. Plus I was talking about reducing the risk, as I know it's impossible to remove it completely.
True and ok.
True, I heavily disapprove of the differing physical requirements for male and female combatants, if the female level is all that's needed then why is the male one higher? In truth the female level is set nelow the minimum standard required and that's just wrong. If a woman wants to join then she should be expected to match the minimum requirements set for every soldier - and if she really wanted to join she would ensure that she would, the same as the men.
This and living accomadations are some of my primary concerns. That and the protective actions of men (both men and women are to blame, if you could use such a word, for this). Without, I would have no problem with the issue at all.
I don't see the Co-ed system ever coming into play, men are simply too protective of women in todays culture, and that's can cause problems on th battlefield. I relaise that women can be just as effective as men on the battlefield, but the mens attitude will prevent them from acting effeciently at this moment in time. Who knows, maybe in the future.
Me either for mostly political reasons, but it is about the only way it would solve all of my problems with the whole issue.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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Post by Wicked Pilot »

Single parents are not allowed to join the U.S. military. However, military parents can become single parents and remain on active duty.
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Wicked Pilot wrote:Single parents are not allowed to join the U.S. military. However, military parents can become single parents and remain on active duty.
That should probably be fixed.
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Post by The Albino Raven »

well, to be honest, i don't really know what women are thinking. (there's a suprise) Although i can sympathize with women for whom the armed forces is one of the only employment options, i would most definately reconsider if there wasnt a father at home. Same goes for a single father.
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Post by Wicked Pilot »

StarshipTitanic wrote:That should probably be fixed.
Which part, the not letting single parents enlist, or the letting them stay?
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Post by Rob Wilson »

Wicked Pilot wrote:
StarshipTitanic wrote:That should probably be fixed.
Which part, the not letting single parents enlist, or the letting them stay?
I certainly don't think Single Parents (either gender) should be allowed to stay in Frontline positions. So if they become a single parent they should be given a rear echelon position (the easing on the time commitment and duties should give them more time with the kids as well).
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Post by Tsyroc »

I think there should be a difference between a single parent where the other biological parent is either dead or seriously out of the picture (prison, institutionalized etc..) and those that the mother/father just isn't around. In the second case there is still somone who is legally responsible for the child.
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Post by Nova Andromeda »

--The first thing that needs to happen is for military people to be properly compensated for the work they do. If they die in combat the rest of the nation should compensate their next of kin for the loss. If that happens then I see no problem putting the best people on the front line regardless of who they are.
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Post by Knife »

Nova Andromeda wrote:--The first thing that needs to happen is for military people to be properly compensated for the work they do. If they die in combat the rest of the nation should compensate their next of kin for the loss. If that happens then I see no problem putting the best people on the front line regardless of who they are.
:shock: You are aware of the SGLI, are you not? It is a very good life insurance policy. Besides, I wish not to have a military that is there for the cash (even if it is for cash for their wife/kid) and instead rather have patriotic men/women who are there to serve their country.


Yeah, I know alot are there for the college $. :?
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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Post by Nova Andromeda »

Knife wrote:
Nova Andromeda wrote:--The first thing that needs to happen is for military people to be properly compensated for the work they do. If they die in combat the rest of the nation should compensate their next of kin for the loss. If that happens then I see no problem putting the best people on the front line regardless of who they are.
:shock: You are aware of the SGLI, are you not? It is a very good life insurance policy. Besides, I wish not to have a military that is there for the cash (even if it is for cash for their wife/kid) and instead rather have patriotic men/women who are there to serve their country.


Yeah, I know alot are there for the college $. :?
--I was aware of no such thing. However, thanks to google I now am. $200k isn't shit. Would you give your life for $200k? In addition, it requires that they pay for it!!! They should be compensated simply for being killed while defending our country!!!!!!! I see no reason why fairly compensating military personel would lead to more people going to the military for cash (you do realize they would have to die first right?). Even if that was the case why wouldn't they fight as hard as they could before getting killed, huh?
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Post by Knife »

Nova Andromeda wrote:
Knife wrote:
Nova Andromeda wrote:--The first thing that needs to happen is for military people to be properly compensated for the work they do. If they die in combat the rest of the nation should compensate their next of kin for the loss. If that happens then I see no problem putting the best people on the front line regardless of who they are.
:shock: You are aware of the SGLI, are you not? It is a very good life insurance policy. Besides, I wish not to have a military that is there for the cash (even if it is for cash for their wife/kid) and instead rather have patriotic men/women who are there to serve their country.


Yeah, I know alot are there for the college $. :?
--I was aware of no such thing. However, thanks to google I now am. $200k isn't shit. Would you give your life for $200k? In addition, it requires that they pay for it!!! They should be compensated simply for being killed while defending our country!!!!!!! I see no reason why fairly compensating military personel would lead to more people going to the military for cash (you do realize they would have to die first right?). Even if that was the case why wouldn't they fight as hard as they could before getting killed, huh?
I was a member of the USMC for 6 years, I am well aware that you have to die to have your dependents get the 200k. I would give my life for my country and the 200k has nothing to do with it. You do have to pay for just about everything in this life, insurance is just one of them.

I agree that the military should get more, being a vet and a member of the American Legion, however in my personal experience, if you ask some one in the military "Why are you here?" a large portion will say for the $ (either college or otherwise).

The SGLI is an insurance policy, therefore is not there for the serviceman/woman but rather for their dependent.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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Post by Nova Andromeda »

Knife wrote:
Nova Andromeda wrote:
Knife wrote: :shock: You are aware of the SGLI, are you not? It is a very good life insurance policy. Besides, I wish not to have a military that is there for the cash (even if it is for cash for their wife/kid) and instead rather have patriotic men/women who are there to serve their country.


Yeah, I know alot are there for the college $. :?
--I was aware of no such thing. However, thanks to google I now am. $200k isn't shit. Would you give your life for $200k? In addition, it requires that they pay for it!!! They should be compensated simply for being killed while defending our country!!!!!!! I see no reason why fairly compensating military personel would lead to more people going to the military for cash (you do realize they would have to die first right?). Even if that was the case why wouldn't they fight as hard as they could before getting killed, huh?
I was a member of the USMC for 6 years, I am well aware that you have to die to have your dependents get the 200k. I would give my life for my country and the 200k has nothing to do with it. You do have to pay for just about everything in this life, insurance is just one of them.

I agree that the military should get more, being a vet and a member of the American Legion, however in my personal experience, if you ask some one in the military "Why are you here?" a large portion will say for the $ (either college or otherwise).

The SGLI is an insurance policy, therefore is not there for the serviceman/woman but rather for their dependent.
--It is all well and good that you would die for your country without proper compensation, but it is grossly unfair for everyone else to benefit from your death without paying your survivors the cost of losing you (which is at least $1m for even the lowest grade soldier). If we do that, get rid of all the benefits for college, and pay them a competative salary based on what they would get in the real world for their skills then you would get mostly people who wish to fight for our country in the military.
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Post by Rubberanvil »

Tsyroc wrote: In the second case there is still somone who is legally responsible for the child.
It is a military requirement for soldiers with dependents to select and name a guardian (grandparents, aunts, uncles and etc.) for the dependents.
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Post by Rubberanvil »

Forgot to add: In case anything happens to the parent(s) there is going to be somebody to take care of the dependants.
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Knife
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Post by Knife »

--It is all well and good that you would die for your country without proper compensation, but it is grossly unfair for everyone else to benefit from your death without paying your survivors the cost of losing you (which is at least $1m for even the lowest grade soldier). If we do that, get rid of all the benefits for college, and pay them a competative salary based on what they would get in the real world for their skills then you would get mostly people who wish to fight for our country in the military.
You are only looking at the first and direct benifits for service members. The military has the SGLI and various other programes for its service members. The VA has others that would benifit the service member and their dependents. Various states also have vet or military related programes for vets and their dependents.

There is'nt a fixed price for the death of a loved one, and while one million sounds good to me, 200 grand is also nothing to laugh at. Also, I don't know about now, but the compensational salary was one of the programs available to the service member under the SGLI so the dependent would get X amount of the service memebers salary for X amount of time.

And also, why I don't mind a good raise once in a while, my pay in the service was comparitive to what I make now. Now the cost of living here is in no way comparable to California but then again for a single guy living in the barracks, its still good pay. So I guess it depends on your situation. Still, your right, better pay.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
Rubberanvil
Jedi Master
Posts: 1167
Joined: 2002-09-30 06:32pm

Re: Mothers in Combat

Post by Rubberanvil »

Rob Wilson wrote: Considering how often the reserves have been activated in the last 10+ years I would think a lot more people would look more closely about being in the reserves.
Blame the ghost of Vietnam, the Pentagon drew a shitload of flak because much of the Reserves and the National Guard was sent to fight in Nam. So many of the non-combatant roles (water purification for example) were completely transferred to the Reserves and Guard so they have to be sent along with the active military. Plus Congress thinks it is much cheaper to have a larger portion of the military being part-time workers (ie less pay, benefits and etc.)
It's interesting but a lot of the civilian Air Force jobs that I looked at require you to be in the Air Force reserves.
The US Armed Forces prefers to wirk with civilians with military experience. One, retired and active personnal (Reserves) know what it's like to be soldier, airmen and etc. and don't need to be pampered. Knowledge of equipment (tanks to computers), people (privates to generals), procedures and know what it is like to eat, sleep, and taking a shit like the soldiers do.
Well if they (single Parents - not necessarily just mothers) need the money let them take the Admin roles (pay clerks, paper shufflers, etc) that way they can free up trained soldiers for the frontline,
As long they're within 2-300 km of the front, they're still not safe from an attack.
If I'd been in the same situation, then Sniper quals or not I'dve had no hesitation in changing to a Clerical role and then start looking for ways to increase my civvy quals in night school
That is fine and dandy during peacetime, but during wartime IIRC your butt is stuck with the job.
Rubberanvil
Jedi Master
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Joined: 2002-09-30 06:32pm

Post by Rubberanvil »

Knife wrote: There is'nt a fixed price for the death of a loved one, and while one million sounds good to me, 200 grand is also nothing to laugh at.
i also agree 1 million sounds good, but have paying that for each and every soldier killed will forced the Pentagon and Congress to be evening more wary of casualties and gives even more reason for them to use robots exlusively instead of combat personnal.
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