Black Hawk Down

Agent Fisher · Post by **Agent Fisher** » 2003-05-12 10:53pm

who has read the book and seen the movie there is a documentary on the History Channel tonight about it and does any one have any comment on the Battle of the Black Sea which is the real term for the battle i know a lot about it

Post by **weemadando** » 2003-05-12 11:03pm

In the battle itself they did a lot better than could have been expected, but political aftermaths destroyed them.

Also, if they had not had the "leave no man behind" policy then it would have gone a whole shitload better for all involved.

Agent Fisher · Post by **Agent Fisher** » 2003-05-12 11:04pm

yes but then the american press would have killed them for leave americans behind and would have protrayed as cowards

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-05-12 11:07pm

One could also say that the Leave no man behind philosophy was part of the reason that the soldiers fight so hard because they know no matter what their buddies won't be leaving them, dead or alive. One of the lessons learned from Vietnam when we had so many left in the jungles and rice patties because of the lack of need to get our boys back. It led to decades of hand wringing and movies like Rambo First Blood Part II concerning the fate of our POWs and MIAs.

nechronius · Post by **nechronius** » 2003-05-12 11:08pm

considering the odds and casualties inflicted, I'd say they did quite well under the circumstances. That's not counting politically. Politically it was a fiasco.

Agent Fisher · Post by **Agent Fisher** » 2003-05-12 11:12pm

screw politics if the politicians had balls Task Force Ranger would have gone back in and captured Adid the oct. 3 raid had serverly depelted the supplys of RPG and killed hunders of Adid militia

Post by **weemadando** » 2003-05-12 11:13pm

Stravo wrote:One could also say that the Leave no man behind philosophy was part of the reason that the soldiers fight so hard because they know no matter what their buddies won't be leaving them, dead or alive. One of the lessons learned from Vietnam when we had so many left in the jungles and rice patties because of the lack of need to get our boys back. It led to decades of hand wringing and movies like Rambo First Blood Part II concerning the fate of our POWs and MIAs.

Sure, it builds a great espirit-de-corps, but the problem is that you have to send people into hopeless situations to retrieve DEAD BODIES? WHAT THE FUCK? Its fucking pointless. Its no use risking the lives of every other person in the field in order to fill coffins. That is my major problem with the system.

Agent Fisher · Post by **Agent Fisher** » 2003-05-12 11:15pm

weemadando wrote:
Stravo wrote:One could also say that the Leave no man behind philosophy was part of the reason that the soldiers fight so hard because they know no matter what their buddies won't be leaving them, dead or alive. One of the lessons learned from Vietnam when we had so many left in the jungles and rice patties because of the lack of need to get our boys back. It led to decades of hand wringing and movies like Rambo First Blood Part II concerning the fate of our POWs and MIAs.
Sure, it builds a great espirit-de-corps, but the problem is that you have to send people into hopeless situations to retrieve DEAD BODIES? WHAT THE FUCK? Its fucking pointless. Its no use risking the lives of every other person in the field in order to fill coffins. That is my major problem with the system.

true but the american press would have crucified the military for leaving our boys over there

Post by **weemadando** » 2003-05-12 11:26pm

Anget Fisher wrote: true but the american press would have crucified the military for leaving our boys over there

So, had you just lost 2 black hawks and their crews... AND THATS ALL the public would have been more unhappy than had you lost 2 black hawks, crews, and several more KIAs and countless WIA. Not to mention the fact that the UN wouldn't have been drawn into it leading to deaths on their side as well.

Would the American people really have been that unhappy?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-05-12 11:29pm

weemadando wrote:Would the American people really have been that unhappy?

Hard to say. American political discourse and ethical philosophy seems to be based on absolute principles, rather than pragmatism.

While a unitarian can say "whatever produces the best outcome", the American approach seems to be "whatever my values tell me, even if the outcome sucks".

Not trying to bash anyone, just making an observation.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2003-05-13 02:33am

Hmm, three levels here. One, politicaly it was a nightmare. But [Clinton bashing] if the President at the time could have showed some back bone and gone after Adid again after the incident rather than tuck tail and run [/Clinton bashing] it could have been salvaged (a little).

Two, planning and support. That was a nightmare as well. Who the fuck goes into a massive MOUNT situation with out adaquate back up and suffecient CAS and CIFS.

The incompendence of the leadership is astounding. Their prep and intel dumps were dismal, build up to the mission was horrendous. The ground element did not know where the fuck they were nor where the fuck to go. the air element guiding them could not see the blockades or obstructions on the ground and kept confussing the ground element.

Three, execution of the mission and adaptation to changing events. Our boys did marvelous. The kill ratio's were insane, the flexability of the forces on the ground were awe inspiring, and the dedication of the troops to each other was worthy of tales (obviously) and their training seemed to be adaquate for various situations that they encountered.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-05-13 02:22pm

The mission could have gone a lot better, simply calling for the 10th mountains Cobras sooner for example. However it also could easily have gotten much worse. Overall when you consider the disparity in numbers for much of the battle I'd say things went fairly well.

The planning was poor. However many changes like bringing a battalion of heavy armor would have created a whole new level of the problems, like ensuring there was a heavy fight no matter what.

Had it not been for two RPG's out of over a thousand estimated fired the mission could easily have ended with one serious American casualty and that being from a fall.

Agent Fisher · Post by **Agent Fisher** » 2003-05-13 03:35pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:The mission could have gone a lot better, simply calling for the 10th mountains Cobras sooner for example. However it also could easily have gotten much worse. Overall when you consider the disparity in numbers for much of the battle I'd say things went fairly well.

The planning was poor. However many changes like bringing a battalion of heavy armor would have created a whole new level of the problems, like ensuring there was a heavy fight no matter what.

Had it not been for two RPG's out of over a thousand estimated fired the mission could easily have ended with one serious American casualty and that being from a fall.

they never did call in the cobras

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-05-13 03:40pm

Anget Fisher wrote: they never did call in the cobras

Actually yes this did, Tenth mountain brought them along with the relief force.

Agent Fisher · Post by **Agent Fisher** » 2003-05-13 03:44pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Anget Fisher wrote: they never did call in the cobras
Actually yes this did, Tenth mountain brought them along with the relief force.

oh

i never heard that all i heard was that they just used little birds for cas

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-05-13 04:48pm

We gave better than we got, but it could have gone a lot better.

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Black Hawk Down

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Black Hawk Down